Panasonic GF3 versus Olympus E-PM

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Which camera offers the best room to grow as a serious photographer? I was wondering what important features to consider when used in manual mode and which camera best supplies these options.

Both camera comes with 14-42mm kit lens. I would like to add a 50-150mm lens as well. What is a good choice?

My budget is around $400 with starter lens. Please give out other recommendations if you think there is a better fit.

Thanks!
 
The Oly has a hot shoe and flash compensation. If you want the most room to grow, go with the Oly.
 
safe a bit more money and go for the newer sensor in m43 instead of either cam with the old 12MP sensor....

Panasonic G3 seems to be the best/cheapest at the moment, but the complain is mostly the 'cheap' feel this camera has even tho it's made of 'premium' compound.... it's very light. Read the review on this page.

I personally wouldn't invest in a GF3 because the lack of physical buttons - I don't feel fine doing everything on a touchscreen, takes too much time and I would keep cleaning the screen from fingerprints.

Also if you aren't going to shoot in RAW but in JPG, pick Oly.... Panny isn't any good in JPG
 
Which camera offers the best room to grow as a serious photographer? I was wondering what important features to consider when used in manual mode and which camera best supplies these options.

Both camera comes with 14-42mm kit lens. I would like to add a 50-150mm lens as well. What is a good choice?

My budget is around $400 with starter lens. Please give out other recommendations if you think there is a better fit.
Besides the flaky IBIS which makes photos blurry at 1/100 sec (but does make sharp photos at really low shutter speeds like 1/15 sec), I do like the E-PM1, especially when I shoot RAW and can stop the kit lens down to F8 to get sharp photos. When you can shoot in this manner, you can get top quality photos which exceed any small-sensor camera that I own.
 
you can get top quality photos which exceed any small-sensor camera that I own.
Although people looking for noise in deep shadows will find it there. But I don't think there's a better overall camera/lens for only $450 that you can buy. The Sony NEX kit lens has gotten inferior reviews, for example.
 
Last time I accessed the Panasonic store through Facebook, they were offering an amazing deal on the GF3 -- 14-42 lens, and 14mm pancake, and GF3 body for $500.

--
Phil Flash
SF, CA USA

It's not the camera. It's you.

Stuff I own in my profile.
 
I am a fan of m4/3, not Oly or Panny specifically, but the system as a whole. I was going to buy an epm-1 to supplement my G1 but bought a GF3 just before Christmas when there were some terrific sales. There are a lot of differences between the two, but in total they are about equal. If possible handle them both and buy the one that feels better to you. Both cameras provide plenty of room for skills growth.

Consider that you are buying into a system. Companies bring out new bodies all the time, they get better specs each new release. Whether you need them to get better pictures is a mater of conjecture. The point of a system interchangeability. Lenses fit across the entire system. You can always update to a newer body in future years and still use any lenses you may have accumulated.

As to your desire for a tele, look at the Oly 40-150. They are quite reasonable, have decent image quality, are small and light thus fine for use on either of you chosen camera bodies.

Hope this helps.

Alan.
--
http://www.MotoEuro.org
 
Also if you aren't going to shoot in RAW but in JPG, pick Oly.... Panny isn't any good in JPG
Rubbish.

Allan
That is in comparison to the JPG quality the Oly produces. With "Not any good" I don't want to imply that they look bad - just Oly looks better.
Well, compared to my G3, I still say rubbish.
But it's a personal preference of course.
Of course, but my preference is Real Natural Colour - what you see is what you get. I get that with the G3 not so much with my PM1. Yes, I have adjusted both cameras for the "best" colour and, in my case, the G3 wins.

Case in point, if you look at my other post regarding the IBIS, the night scene was taken with the PM1. We really do have green traffic lights - the PM1 claims they are blue.

Allan
 
Also if you aren't going to shoot in RAW but in JPG, pick Oly.... Panny isn't any good in JPG
Rubbish.

Allan
That is in comparison to the JPG quality the Oly produces. With "Not any good" I don't want to imply that they look bad - just Oly looks better.
Well, compared to my G3, I still say rubbish.
But it's a personal preference of course.
Of course, but my preference is Real Natural Colour - what you see is what you get. I get that with the G3 not so much with my PM1. Yes, I have adjusted both cameras for the "best" colour and, in my case, the G3 wins.

Case in point, if you look at my other post regarding the IBIS, the night scene was taken with the PM1. We really do have green traffic lights - the PM1 claims they are blue.

Allan
Agreed on the G3 (and GH2 / GX1). Their quality is significantly above the quality of the 12 MP sensor in resolution, dynamic range, color accuracy and noise... I wont argue on that point... but I was pointing towards the camera's which do have the 12 MP sensor...

I still have the G1, which is not the best with JPG compared to what similar sensor cams of Oly are producing.... (G2, GF1, GF2, GF3, GH1 aren't that much better with JPG... tho this iResolution thingy can sharpen things up a bit)

I just wait until (FINALLY) the GX1 gets released here, still hoping, if ever... Panasonic says maybe after March - now that's what I call Rubbish ;)
 
Besides the flaky IBIS which makes photos blurry at 1/100 sec (but does make sharp photos at really low shutter speeds like 1/15 sec), I do like the E-PM1, especially when I shoot RAW and can stop the kit lens down to F8 to get sharp photos. When you can shoot in this manner, you can get top quality photos which exceed any small-sensor camera that I own.
This has not been my experience so far. I just got the E-PM1 and have tried handheld shots at 1/100 with stabilization set to IS1 and Off. The sharpness was essentially identical, with maybe the slightest edge to the IS1 shots. I then tried the camera at 42mm (84mm Equiv.) at 1/10 and the IS1 shot was much sharper than the IS/Off shot.

I am using Firmware 1.0.

Maybe I will experience the problem with the IS in the future, but in my limited tests I do not have this problem.

--
Frank B
Nikon P7100 Gallery
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Which camera offers the best room to grow as a serious photographer? I was wondering what important features to consider when used in manual mode and which camera best supplies these options.

Both camera comes with 14-42mm kit lens. I would like to add a 50-150mm lens as well. What is a good choice?

My budget is around $400 with starter lens. Please give out other recommendations if you think there is a better fit.
I have the GF2 and E-PM1. I'm soon going to sell the GF2 as I like the E-PM1 so much better. I think the GF3 is similar, but with less options actually (no hotshoe or viewfinder option)

E-PM1 pros:
  1. hotshoe for flash or very good VF2 or good VF3 viewfinder (GF2 one is crap, GF3 N/A)
  2. remote flash control capability
  3. variable flash output capability
  4. better high iso vs GF2 (unsure of GF3)
  5. lighter, but still well built
  6. smaller kit lens but as good
  7. very very configurable. Nearly every option in the flagship E-P3 is available for the E-PM1
  8. IBIS for every lens you put on it, even legacy
  9. Better OOC jpegs
  10. Easier RAW editing for beginners with OV2 (but can still go "pro" later)
cons:
  1. no grip (but can get add-on one. GF2 is better here)
  2. control wheel not as good as the GF2 one
  3. IBIS issues at some shutter speeds (keep off unless you really need it)
That's my take on it after using both for a few weeks.

Reality is they are both great cameras and we get caught up in details these days. I could easily use the GF2 and be very happy with it. For me the E-PM1 is just that little bit better. Both they are both better than most DSLRs of 5 years ago and are better than most entry level DSLRs today. We're spoiled!
 
Of course, but my preference is Real Natural Colour - what you see is what you get. I get that with the G3 not so much with my PM1. Yes, I have adjusted both cameras for the "best" colour and, in my case, the G3 wins.

Case in point, if you look at my other post regarding the IBIS, the night scene was taken with the PM1. We really do have green traffic lights - the PM1 claims they are blue.
The traffic lights on your shot are white because they are heavily overexposed.

What you see as blue is lens flare. Apparently, lens can produce flare of different colors, depending on coating and light conditions. Nothing wrong with Oly.
 
  1. better high iso vs GF2 (unsure of GF3)
??? Same sensor? Identical performance I would think.
  1. smaller kit lens but as good
It's an underrated lens.
  1. IBIS for every lens you put on it, even legacy
This is an advantage for Panasonic, the IBIS is flaky, I'd rather have an OIS lens that's more reliable.
  1. Better OOC jpegs
Olympus jpegs are overrated, I prefer to shoot RAW for important photos.
  1. Easier RAW editing for beginners with OV2 (but can still go "pro" later)
No, Olympus Master sucks. Canon has a much better free RAW program. You need to buy something like PhotoShop if you want to shoot RAW and get better results than the out of camera JPEGs.
cons:
  1. no grip (but can get add-on one. GF2 is better here)
  2. control wheel not as good as the GF2 one
  3. IBIS issues at some shutter speeds (keep off unless you really need it)
Reality is they are both great cameras and we get caught up in details these days. I could easily use the GF2 and be very happy with it. For me the E-PM1 is just that little bit better. Both they are both better than most DSLRs of 5 years ago and are better than most entry level DSLRs today. We're spoiled!
I don't have a Panasonic, but I think the E-PM1 is a great camera and lens for $450, IBIS issues aside. But I wouldn' be afraid to buy panasonic either. However, the flash hotshoe is a pretty important option if you want to use the camera as a DSLR replacement. A real flash like the FL36R that bounces off the ceiling takes your photos to a whole new level above the free included flash.
 
.... I would like to add a 50-150mm lens as well. What is a good choice?

My budget is around $400 with starter lens. Please give out other recommendations if you think there is a better fit.
Definitely the Olympus e-pM1 : the twin-lens kit (14-42 & 40-150) is at a great price right now, and your next purchase should be the VF-2 viewfinder. You then basically have the workings of an E-5 DSLR in a tiny package.

Panasonic's equivalent (or better, actually) would be the GH2 but that's bigger and much more costly.

(Actually in strict MANUAL mode my Lumix G1 is excellent ... and currently very very cheap)
 
Lots of answers here, some of them from people who have not handled one or the other of the cameras.

The short answer, if you don't want to read any further, is they both are good choices.

I have had several M43 cameras. Currently I have the GH2, which is the top of the Panasonic line at the moment. I wanted a more pocketable M43 too, so I looked at the EPM1 and the GF3.

Similarities:

Both the EPM1 and the GF3 use the same sensor. Both of them do considerably better than the earlier generations of this sensor in terms of sensor noise and higher ISO performance. You can do quite well in terms of image quality with either of these cameras.

Overall performance in terms of focusing speed and responsiveness is very good; I would, however, give the edge to the GF3 in lower light situations (small difference, but it is there).

Both cameras can be used in fully automatic, scene modes, or manual or partially manual modes (aperture or shutter priority).

Controls on both, while minimal, are very similar. The GF3 allows some programmability of buttons, not sure about the EPM1 (I assume it does also).

Both produce very good picture output (yes, even the jpgs in the GF3 are quite good). Olympus has legendary jpg photo color balance, but I find the GF3 to produce some of the very best looking Panasonic jpg output ever.

Both are small enough to carry easily.

Both are excellent cameras.

Differences:

The EPM1 has a hotshoe, which means it can use an external viewfinder or a regular sized external flash. The GF3 does not. However, the GF3 does have a built-in flash, which can be popped up when needed. The EPM1 comes with a tiny external flash that you must attach to have that capability.

The LCD in both is 3". However, because of the way Olympus chose to use the display ratios, actual visual area is much smaller than that of the GF3. (Try them out in the store next to each other, you will see what I mean). The GF3 has a nice, bright display which is very easy to see outdoors; Olympus has been a bit behind the curve on this in the past, however with the external viewfinder attachment, you would have an advantage over any LCD only camera.

The user interface in both cameras is pretty good. I personally prefer the Panasonic as it seems more intuitive to me, but that is one of those things you will have to try out yourself to see what fits you best.

Image stabilization: Both camera systems use IS. Panasonic applies it in-lens, Oly applies it in-body. Advantages for in-body (IBIS) are that it can keep lens size down and you can use any lens on an IS camera body, (even a vintage one attached to camera with an adapter), and get image stabilization applied. However, the general consensus is that IBIS is a little bit less effective than OIS (in-lens stabilization). Both systems do work, though, and both are effective at reducing camera shake blur in lower light situations (within limits, of course).

EPM1 is a bit slipperier to hold since they did not put any kind of molded grip on the metal cased front. The GF3 has more places to rest your fingers and grab the camera.

SO, what should you choose?

Go to a store that has both of them, pick them each up and play with them (if you are in the US, Best Buy actually stocks and has both of these cameras on display). Pick the one that feels best in your hand and that has the control layout that makes sense to you.

For me that was the GF3. I fell in love with the little thing the first time I played with it and finally caved and bought one over the holidays. I am having a blast with it.

For others, the EPM1 had the same effect, and they too are enjoying the heck out of it.

You really can't go wrong with either.

Good luck!

-J
 
safe a bit more money and go for the newer sensor in m43 instead of either cam with the old 12MP sensor....
Not possible for $400 yet....and the latest generation of the 12MP sensor is really pretty good (having owned a G2, an EPL1, and now a GF3, I can tell you for sure that the one in the GF3 is a LOT better...whatever tweaks they have done to it have made a significant difference in performance.)
I personally wouldn't invest in a GF3 because the lack of physical buttons - I don't feel fine doing everything on a touchscreen, takes too much time and I would keep cleaning the screen from fingerprints.
The GF3 does not use a touchscreen for everything. It has a rear dial and buttons...I never use the touchscreen on mine and am constantly changing aperture, shutter, WB and ISO directly with the rear dial and click control and the buttons on the back.... You can set it up to not have to use the touchscreen AT ALL if you want.....

And it has exactly the same amount of dials and buttons as the EPM1....
Also if you aren't going to shoot in RAW but in JPG, pick Oly.... Panny isn't any good in JPG
No, not true. The GF3 has a quite good jpg engine.....you would be surprised, I think; it's much better than any of their previous iterations.

-J
 
Both produce very good picture output (yes, even the jpgs in the GF3 are quite good). Olympus has legendary jpg photo color balance, but I find the GF3 to produce some of the very best looking Panasonic jpg output ever.
I don't think the JPG output is a reason to favor one over the other.
The EPM1 has a hotshoe, which means it can use an external viewfinder or a regular sized external flash. The GF3 does not. However, the GF3 does have a built-in flash, which can be popped up when needed. The EPM1 comes with a tiny external flash that you must attach to have that capability.
The tiny flash is easy to attach. The hotshoe is an important point of expandability. This is a big plus for the E-Pm1.
The LCD in both is 3". However, because of the way Olympus chose to use the display ratios, actual visual area is much smaller than that of the GF3. (Try them out in the store next to each other, you will see what I mean). The GF3 has a nice, bright display which is very easy to see outdoors; Olympus has been a bit behind the curve on this in the past, however with the external viewfinder attachment, you would have an advantage over any LCD only camera.
The E-PM1 LCD really sucks in bright sunlight, worse than Canon compact cameras. If the GF3 is really that much better, then it would be a big plus for the GF3 if you don't want to pay for the rather expensive VF-2 or VF-3.
Image stabilization: Both camera systems use IS. Panasonic applies it in-lens, Oly applies it in-body. Advantages for in-body (IBIS) are that it can keep lens size down and you can use any lens on an IS camera body, (even a vintage one attached to camera with an adapter), and get image stabilization applied. However, the general consensus is that IBIS is a little bit less effective than OIS (in-lens stabilization). Both systems do work, though, and both are effective at reducing camera shake blur in lower light situations (within limits, of course).
IBIS in the EPM1 is a lot worse than just little less effective. It makes photos WORSE. At least it does on my EPM1. Maybe it's quality control issue and I got a bad camera. But no one knows for sure. Olympus has never explained the issue.
EPM1 is a bit slipperier to hold since they did not put any kind of molded grip on the metal cased front. The GF3 has more places to rest your fingers and grab the camera.
I don't have a problem holding the EPM1, I tend to cradle the lens when I hold it, I don't know if that is bad form, but it works for me.
 

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