Canon's SLR dominance ended (or began to end) the day Nikon announced their full frame D3, and the D3x only accelerated that tendency.
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Who will survive the mirrorless jungle?
- Thread starter ohmydentist
- Start date
It could be argued that the Canon 5DII has cemented Canon dominance for the time being .
At least for pros, there is nothing like it .
At least for pros, there is nothing like it .
I am a Canon shooter (DSLR), but I am extremly happy with the competition from the other players. My investment in Canon gear makes it difficult to change to another brand even if I wanted.
Canon has been very quiert about mirrorless cameras. They are - may be - the biggest seller of digital cameras all from point and shoot over high end small sensor cameras such as G12 and S100 to proffessionel SLR´s.
I don´t think they are willing to give away the growing segment: mirrorless large sensor cameras to their compeditors. Of course a mirrorless Canon camera will steal some sale of other Canon cameras, but better for them - and the sale of Canon lenses, flashes etc. - that Canon shooters stay with Canon.
Canon has now had time to do a proper reserch and devellopment, but they also have to compete with 3. generation cameras from very strong contenders.
My guess is:
They will come with their first mirrorless this year.
The camera will have a 1,6 cropped sensor, improved in noise and DR and about 18 m.pixel.
The camera will have a collapsable EOS mount so all existing Canon EF and EF-S lenses can be used when the mount is unfolded.
The camera will have both phase- and contrast focusing.
Canon will release some pancake lenses to be used when the mount is collapsed, so the camera/lens combination can be kept pretty small.
Finaly the camera will have an electronic wiewfinder and a proper flash shoe. Hopefully they can also find room for a build in flash.
The camera will be sold for U.S.$ 1.000.
May be, I am just dreaming, but anyway happy New Year to all.
Erik
Canon has been very quiert about mirrorless cameras. They are - may be - the biggest seller of digital cameras all from point and shoot over high end small sensor cameras such as G12 and S100 to proffessionel SLR´s.
I don´t think they are willing to give away the growing segment: mirrorless large sensor cameras to their compeditors. Of course a mirrorless Canon camera will steal some sale of other Canon cameras, but better for them - and the sale of Canon lenses, flashes etc. - that Canon shooters stay with Canon.
Canon has now had time to do a proper reserch and devellopment, but they also have to compete with 3. generation cameras from very strong contenders.
My guess is:
They will come with their first mirrorless this year.
The camera will have a 1,6 cropped sensor, improved in noise and DR and about 18 m.pixel.
The camera will have a collapsable EOS mount so all existing Canon EF and EF-S lenses can be used when the mount is unfolded.
The camera will have both phase- and contrast focusing.
Canon will release some pancake lenses to be used when the mount is collapsed, so the camera/lens combination can be kept pretty small.
Finaly the camera will have an electronic wiewfinder and a proper flash shoe. Hopefully they can also find room for a build in flash.
The camera will be sold for U.S.$ 1.000.
May be, I am just dreaming, but anyway happy New Year to all.
Erik
verybiglebowski
Senior Member
Whatever they do, they will try to separate from the bunch, as much as possible in mirrorless cameras.
Happy Year to you too, and keep your enthusiasm
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Happy Year to you too, and keep your enthusiasm
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http://verybiglobo.blogspot.com/
R
Rich Gibson
Guest
Possibly, but it might be they wanted to have an interchangeable lens camera where the size of the lenses matched that of the body for esthetics. Big mistake I think, selecting such a puny sensor. Physics can't be ignored. Once people become accustomed to the change in size relationships of the lens vis-a-vis the body that will become the norm.
I recall seeing the Infinity Q35 for the first. Next to the Pontiac Aztec it had to be about the most butt-ugly car made. Who would spend money on that? Now everyone makes that body style. Same with the mirror-less cameras with relatively larger lenses.
Rich
I recall seeing the Infinity Q35 for the first. Next to the Pontiac Aztec it had to be about the most butt-ugly car made. Who would spend money on that? Now everyone makes that body style. Same with the mirror-less cameras with relatively larger lenses.
Rich
I think that the non-point-and-shoot camera market is in turmoil. The reason is quite simple. Canon and Nikon govern the market by some 80-90 % share in SLR-sales. There they both have all the bases covered. Their position is so strong that it leaves practically no room for other contestants.
The rest of the available market is divided with all the other companies: Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax, Samsung, Sony etc ...
It would be a economical suicide to try to compete with those two giants using same weapons. It's been tried, but with no avail. So the only solution is to come up with new schemes and designs. Mirrorless (hence compact) cameras with exchangeable lenses and a decent size (read: APS-C size) cell interests large amount of amateurs and professionals.
That can be seen directly of the popularity of mirrorless models offered by Olympus, Panasonic and Sony. But for them, as well as for the other smaller companies, this is nearly the only open road to some success. All these smaller players have tried to nib some share of the SLR-market, but with not so big success.
For the future of camera design and development they are also very important, because Canon and Nikon are very conservative in their thinking and designing.
I have over 40 years experience in photography and I welcome all the new ideas that lead to new and different solutions. It's been interesting to see popularity of photography rise again after many dull years with very small developments.
Tikkis
The rest of the available market is divided with all the other companies: Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax, Samsung, Sony etc ...
It would be a economical suicide to try to compete with those two giants using same weapons. It's been tried, but with no avail. So the only solution is to come up with new schemes and designs. Mirrorless (hence compact) cameras with exchangeable lenses and a decent size (read: APS-C size) cell interests large amount of amateurs and professionals.
That can be seen directly of the popularity of mirrorless models offered by Olympus, Panasonic and Sony. But for them, as well as for the other smaller companies, this is nearly the only open road to some success. All these smaller players have tried to nib some share of the SLR-market, but with not so big success.
For the future of camera design and development they are also very important, because Canon and Nikon are very conservative in their thinking and designing.
I have over 40 years experience in photography and I welcome all the new ideas that lead to new and different solutions. It's been interesting to see popularity of photography rise again after many dull years with very small developments.
Tikkis
nick18k
Well-known member
Yeah it's making a dent.
Spending $500+ on a NEX body and $400 on lens and accessories, stopped me from buying anything cannon.
The only thing I might buy from cannon is the 50mm prime, but I may be putting the 16mm above that lens.
Spending $500+ on a NEX body and $400 on lens and accessories, stopped me from buying anything cannon.
The only thing I might buy from cannon is the 50mm prime, but I may be putting the 16mm above that lens.
"Canon & Nikon...don't want to risk their DSLR sales."
The trouble with that idea is that if mirrorless is taking away sales from DLSRs, how is it better for Canikon to have (e.g.) Sony's mirrorless doing it than Canikon's own mirrorless?
Apple never worried that the iPad might steal sales from laptops, or the iPhone from the iPad. Steve Jobs said something to the effect that it was better to steal your own lunch than to have someone else steal it. I.e. a mfr. needs to have all the bases covered.
Then there's the fact that for many customers, mirrorless will supplement their DSLR, not replace it. So Canikon are losing an opportunity to grow their overall sales.
The trouble with that idea is that if mirrorless is taking away sales from DLSRs, how is it better for Canikon to have (e.g.) Sony's mirrorless doing it than Canikon's own mirrorless?
Apple never worried that the iPad might steal sales from laptops, or the iPhone from the iPad. Steve Jobs said something to the effect that it was better to steal your own lunch than to have someone else steal it. I.e. a mfr. needs to have all the bases covered.
Then there's the fact that for many customers, mirrorless will supplement their DSLR, not replace it. So Canikon are losing an opportunity to grow their overall sales.
Good point. Even just attempting mirrorless gives Canon a chance to stop sales bleeding out to other companies mirrorless lines. When it comes down to it, Canon would be wise to stand with open arms for the consumers out there who want to upgrade their P&S Powershots and such or for loyal SLR owners who want to find a lighter alternative for their collection.
I wonder how much "pro sales" even matter to a company's bottom line. Age of social networking = age of photographs. mirrorless will dominate once tehy nail their forus speed. Nex already has the best kit lens + sensor in the entry level market.
Even the concept of pros is likely to change. Look at websites like 500px, how many of those pics would you need fast focus speed?
Even the concept of pros is likely to change. Look at websites like 500px, how many of those pics would you need fast focus speed?
JustinL01
Forum Enthusiast
Sorry Adam et al I will have to respectively disagree. I have had a Nex 5N, I now have a Nex 7 and a Nikon V1. To just say a camera won't be successful due to it's sensor size is misguided to say the least.
Have you actually read the reviews of active professionals using the V1, while the sensor size may be smaller it is technically more advanced with both phase and contrast detection actually on the sensor, there is seriously no comparison with speed of the AF and overall speed of the camera, it leaves the Nex 7 standing. The actual quality of the sensor not just the size plays a major part, the low noise abilities for a "smaller" sensor camera is outstanding and comparable to the M4/3rds. Also the noise it does produce is easily adjusted in LR and far more pleasing to the eye than alot of smeared results from other systems.
Also the colour, metering and white balance is also superior than the Nex and M 4/3'rds system.
My last point is that the lenses themselves are far smaller, the camera itself isn't but comparing the 5n or 7 with the 18-55 Kit lens compared to the V1 there is no contest. My biggest gripe with the Nex system at the moment is the size of the lenses, once you go anything above the 16mm pancake the lens size stops making it a "small camera". Where Nikon got it right is that the lenses are far smaller making the whole system more compact. With the Nex 7 you will get better high ISO shots but unless you are actively doing large prints you won't really see any real difference unless of course you pixel peep on screen!
Most people buying into the mirrorless concept will probably be doing hardly any printing and certainly not large prints ie over 10x8. I think Nikon realised this. Look at the amount of photo hosting sites, the vast majority of people I know upload their pictures to facebook or the popular photo hosting websites, but they only print a very small minority of the pictures they take and these are usually small.
Don't get me wrong I love the Nex 7, however it really depends on what you are using the camera for. For static shots, buildings etc I might use the Nex 7, for street photography, out with the family, wildlife the V1 is perfect with it's super fast and accurate AF. I also find the handling of the camera just as easy to use as the 5N.
Have you actually read the reviews of active professionals using the V1, while the sensor size may be smaller it is technically more advanced with both phase and contrast detection actually on the sensor, there is seriously no comparison with speed of the AF and overall speed of the camera, it leaves the Nex 7 standing. The actual quality of the sensor not just the size plays a major part, the low noise abilities for a "smaller" sensor camera is outstanding and comparable to the M4/3rds. Also the noise it does produce is easily adjusted in LR and far more pleasing to the eye than alot of smeared results from other systems.
Also the colour, metering and white balance is also superior than the Nex and M 4/3'rds system.
My last point is that the lenses themselves are far smaller, the camera itself isn't but comparing the 5n or 7 with the 18-55 Kit lens compared to the V1 there is no contest. My biggest gripe with the Nex system at the moment is the size of the lenses, once you go anything above the 16mm pancake the lens size stops making it a "small camera". Where Nikon got it right is that the lenses are far smaller making the whole system more compact. With the Nex 7 you will get better high ISO shots but unless you are actively doing large prints you won't really see any real difference unless of course you pixel peep on screen!
Most people buying into the mirrorless concept will probably be doing hardly any printing and certainly not large prints ie over 10x8. I think Nikon realised this. Look at the amount of photo hosting sites, the vast majority of people I know upload their pictures to facebook or the popular photo hosting websites, but they only print a very small minority of the pictures they take and these are usually small.
Don't get me wrong I love the Nex 7, however it really depends on what you are using the camera for. For static shots, buildings etc I might use the Nex 7, for street photography, out with the family, wildlife the V1 is perfect with it's super fast and accurate AF. I also find the handling of the camera just as easy to use as the 5N.
Micro 4/3 and NEX will for sure - the rest are also-rans especially the small sensor Nikon and the pinhead sensor Pentax .
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Yes, I think this is a major part of Nikon's thinking on these cameras. The other aim is to produce a camera that is fast enough for photographing kids.
Robert Hoy
Senior Member
Can't see why anyone would. It's an expensive camera that doesn't sell very many units. Not a market segment many company would be clawing to get into.
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Robert Hoy
Senior Member
No, the rumor I've read is the G1X image sensor will be about a 1.8x crop factor which is bigger than 4/3 and so much bigger than the Nikon 1.
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Reading between the lines of Canon rumors they have no mirror less camera in 2012 pipeline. They probably want to see first if Nikon fall on their face with a small sized sensor & low pixel V1 camera. (and spare themselves the cost of making the same mistake)
Yes, in this day and age it seems to me as a waste to produce any small sized sensor camera aiming at enthusiastic / serious photographers. And cellphones have taken over the place what once was domain of compact cameras; " just snaps" photography. New compact cameras should raise their IQ drastic to hold position in the 'happy holliday shooter' market.
Meanwhile there is a large group of compact users that once bought such only for sake of weight & size, a group that is desperate for slr like IQ. And now we can thanks to mirror-less cameras with APS-C sized sensors.
Alas Nikon and Canon fail to see the herd of people now abandoning their dslr or 'super duper' compacts in favor of these APS-C mirrorless cameras. Their fear to eat out of their own dslr share will in the end decrease their market share.
Yes, in this day and age it seems to me as a waste to produce any small sized sensor camera aiming at enthusiastic / serious photographers. And cellphones have taken over the place what once was domain of compact cameras; " just snaps" photography. New compact cameras should raise their IQ drastic to hold position in the 'happy holliday shooter' market.
Meanwhile there is a large group of compact users that once bought such only for sake of weight & size, a group that is desperate for slr like IQ. And now we can thanks to mirror-less cameras with APS-C sized sensors.
Alas Nikon and Canon fail to see the herd of people now abandoning their dslr or 'super duper' compacts in favor of these APS-C mirrorless cameras. Their fear to eat out of their own dslr share will in the end decrease their market share.
ohmydentist
Senior Member
very short-sighted, if you ignore a growing market segment for any reason.
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ohmydentist
Senior Member
I don't get it. How many mirrorless shoppers would be happy with a fixed lens? Why dosen't Canon want to make money by selling lenses? ^^
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Canon estimated that they were going to sell 19 million compact cameras and 7.2 million DSLRs last year, so they must be doing something right.
Canon allegedly is going to announce a larger-sensor compact camera next week. Most mirrorless buyers just use the kit lens, so interchangeable lenses don't matter to them.
As for DSLRs, perhaps Canon's next generation of consumer DSLRs will be more compact. Not as small as NEX, but close enough.
ohmydentist
Senior Member
No one doubts Canon is doing well NOW. ^^ Did you know Nokia once ruled phone market? That's only a few years ago. Do you know any young people using Nokia phone now? No.
Fortunes change very quickly in digital era.
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^ ^
Just Shoot !
Fortunes change very quickly in digital era.
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Just Shoot !
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