Canon Shift Lens vs Alternativces

Bit of a curiosity question here. I have been looking at Canon's shift lenses and have been fascinated by the possibilities they open up, but having never worked with one I am curious if anyone can comment about how they compare to two other possible solutions for perspective control. Namely either using a Lensbaby or an old 4x5 monorail camera with a Canon adapter plate.

Has anyone tried both an official shift lens and one of these other types?

Thanks.

There's also the Mirex tilt/shift adapter, made in Germany. I haven't tried any of these techniques, even when I was shooting film. T/S lenses are too expensive to justify for a hobby, and view cameras aren't portable, so they don't suit my shooting style. It's an interesting topic, though.

Neeneko said:

Bit of a curiosity question here. I have been looking at Canon's shift lenses and have been fascinated by the possibilities they open up, but having never worked with one I am curious if anyone can comment about how they compare to two other possible solutions for perspective control. Namely either using a Lensbaby or an old 4x5 monorail camera with a Canon adapter plate.

Has anyone tried both an official shift lens and one of these other types?

Thanks.

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--
http://jackandkelly.zenfolio.com/

Hrm, I had not heard of that product. Looks difficult to get a hold of, but has some promise. I already use M42 lenses on my Canon and I might have access to some Mamiya lenses.... Thanks ^ ^

Well obviously a view camera will give you even a wider range of creative possibilities. You will also be working in film, which is a rather different discipline.

As far as being too expensive for a hobby, lots of people have much more expensive hobbies.

You may also want to consider that a TS-E lens is really best mated to a FF camera like the 5DII.

Film is kinda out of the question, so if I was going to try working with a view camera it would have to have some type of digital back (probably just a DSLR on a plate).

nods I would probably be upgrading to a FF before I tried anything like this one way or another. My 300D is long overdue for replacement.

You are comparing digital and film also. From the convenience and cost perspective digital SLR wins. If you consider a digital back for a tilt and shift camera then cost skyrockets. The 4*5 film camera gives greater range of tilt but all the other factors mean you learn to manage at a lower cost with an SLR.

Never used lens baby but a tilt shift lens is a revelation. You need to use one. The smooth long range manual focus is refreshing. The shift for stitching wonderfull.

The fact you can use it as a top quality regular lens as well not just a tripod bound option is often overlooked. The tilt shift flexibility more than compensates for manual focus.

The fact remains that both the film and digital options both require a serious investment.

The ease of use and flexibility of digital/tilt shift lenses make this the best option for me.

Appreciative student of the late Joan Wakelin. 39+ years later still enjoying it!

Bronze Age Man said:

You are comparing digital and film also.

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I probably should have been more clear. The setup I was describing involved using a 4x5 monorail but attaching a DSLR to the back plate instead of film. I have neither the skills nor space for a darkroom setup, and I do mixed wavelength photography so film physically would not work anyway.

Bronze Age Man said:

Never used lens baby but a tilt shift lens is a revelation. You need to use one. The smooth long range manual focus is refreshing. The shift for stitching wonderfull.

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They look really interesting and so far everyone I have talked to really seems to speak well of shift lenses ^ ^

Bronze Age Man said:

The fact you can use it as a top quality regular lens as well not just a tripod bound option is often overlooked. The tilt shift flexibility more than compensates for manual focus.

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Actually, I prefer manual focus. Autofocus does not work for a lot of the pictures I take, so most of the time I set my AF lenses to MF anyway, so for me this is a bonus.

filmluvr said:

There's also the Mirex tilt/shift adapter, made in Germany. I haven't tried any of these techniques, even when I was shooting film. T/S lenses are too expensive to justify for a hobby,

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filmluvr said:

please don't tell my wife, I have both the 17 and 24TSE and I am certainly just a hobbiest. But I would not be without them and have even considered adding a 90TSE

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Ben_Egbert said:

please don't tell my wife, I have both the 17 and 24TSE and I am certainly just a hobbiest. But I would not be without them and have even considered adding a 90TSE

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'Hobby' is always such a relative concept.

I am not a professional, and lack the social skills to ever be one, but invest much of my spare cash in photography. It is a hobby, but a focused one ^ ^

Neeneko said:

The setup I was describing involved using a 4x5 monorail but attaching a DSLR to the back plate instead of film.

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That was clear to me from your original post.

Neeneko said:

Actually, I prefer manual focus.

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My concern with setups like these is the stop-down metering. I seldom shoot on a tripod, and stop-down metering is a real nuisance. That's one reason I've sold all my third-party lenses and Nikkors except for those I shoot wide open.

What type subjects are you shooting?

--

http://jackandkelly.zenfolio.com/

filmluvr said:

My concern with setups like these is the stop-down metering. I seldom shoot on a tripod, and stop-down metering is a real nuisance. That's one reason I've sold all my third-party lenses and Nikkors except for those I shoot wide open.

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That I am not to worried about. For the moment at least I tend to shoot with a tripod.

filmluvr said:

What type subjects are you shooting?

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While it is not very useful, there is no particular use-case. I enjoy exploring the mechanics, but do not have a particular subject in mind. I just want to learn as much as I can.

Neeneko said:

filmluvr said:

My concern with setups like these is the stop-down metering. I seldom shoot on a tripod, and stop-down metering is a real nuisance. That's one reason I've sold all my third-party lenses and Nikkors except for those I shoot wide open.

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That I am not to worried about. For the moment at least I tend to shoot with a tripod.

Neeneko said:

What type subjects are you shooting?

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While it is not very useful, there is no particular use-case. I enjoy exploring the mechanics, but do not have a particular subject in mind. I just want to learn as much as I can.

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My experience with the 17 and 24TSE is that shift is often very useful to allow composition with a level camera and avoid tilting the camera up or down.

Shift is not often required for landscape work at f8 and up as the dof is already very deep. I have used it on both lenses, but normally only for very low shots. If working from a normal tripod standing position, and a level camera, there is not much need for tilt. I do use it when 2-3 feet off the ground. Not sure how much longer I can get that low however .

--
When you can't focus, nothing else matters
Once you can, everything else does.

http://ben-egbert.smugmug.com/

Ben

Neeneko said:

Neeneko said:

You are comparing digital and film also.

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I probably should have been more clear. The setup I was describing involved using a 4x5 monorail but attaching a DSLR to the back plate instead of film. I have neither the skills nor space for a darkroom setup, and I do mixed wavelength photography so film physically would not work anyway.

Neeneko said:

Never used lens baby but a tilt shift lens is a revelation. You need to use one. The smooth long range manual focus is refreshing. The shift for stitching wonderfull.

Click to expand...

They look really interesting and so far everyone I have talked to really seems to speak well of shift lenses ^ ^

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I hope you talk about T/S in general, not lensbaby.
lensbaby is only a doublet lens, on purpose not sharp over the full frame
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Lensbaby-Composer-Review.aspx

Neeneko said:

Neeneko said:

The fact you can use it as a top quality regular lens as well not just a tripod bound option is often overlooked. The tilt shift flexibility more than compensates for manual focus.

Click to expand...

Actually, I prefer manual focus. Autofocus does not work for a lot of the pictures I take, so most of the time I set my AF lenses to MF anyway, so for me this is a bonus.

Click to expand...

--
Life is short, time to zoom in ©

Neeneko said:

Film is kinda out of the question, so if I was going to try working with a view camera it would have to have some type of digital back (probably just a DSLR on a plate).

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Guaranteed that a view camera with a digital back would cost a LOT more than a EF TS-E lens.

For the best TS lens for Canon try out a Schneider PC TS (they have a 45mm and 90mm). The build quality is beyond amazing, and with the scales engraved on the lens its perfect for repetitive video work. (price though is higher then canon ts, but worth it). If your in NY swing by B&H Photo and try one out.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Schneider+PC+TS&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

----------------------------------------------------

Take any advice given on a forum with a grain a salt. (that includes mine). Nobody is
perfect, though many claim to be.

Mounting a DSLR to a 4x5 camera/lens is not ideal.

• A 90mm lens is a wide angle on 4x5 (something like 24mm equiv). Actually, my Nikkor 90mm is classed as a "Super Wide". 90mm is actually getting a bit cumbersome to tilt/shift on a 4x5 - you need to start thinking about recessed plates, bag bellows etc. But a 90mm lens is a long telephoto on APS-C. Prices for 4x5 lenses shorter than 90mm start to sky-rocket. Personally, I don't find 90mm an appealing focal length for tilt/shift on APS-C. It is wonderful on 4x5, however.

• 4x5 lenses don't have great MTF. APS-C sensors are diffraction limited from around f8 onwards, and many 4x5 lenses are f8 wide open, and only designed for shooting from f22. By f22, things are getting very fuzzy on APS-C.

• 4x5 extreme wide angle lenses are not "retro-focus". What that means is that the rear element gets very close of the film. Unfortunately, DSLRs require that the rear element of the lens clears a mirror, not to mention the camera body and 4x5 backplate adapter. I doubt you will be able to focus to infinity with anything wider than a 90mm.

If you really want to do tilt/shift (for real, not in software), I suggest you get the 24L and a 5D Mk II (the 17mm is a bit cumbersome). Or use a 5x4 with 5x4 film. On a 5x4, the focal plane is naturally very narrow, and you can do things that are impossible with the 24L (or any other 35mm tilt/shift lens).

Neeneko said:

Bit of a curiosity question here. I have been looking at Canon's shift lenses and have been fascinated by the possibilities they open up . . . either using a Lensbaby or an old 4x5 monorail camera with a Canon adapter plate.

Click to expand...

Hi Neeneko,

forget about the Lensbaby and the 4x5 camera option - size and weight are the foremost aspects when it comes to photography followed by optical quality. That exclude both options.

I used to photograph for years with an even bigger toy - a Plaubel 5x7 inch optical bench and while the scanned results have been stunning and the shift ways are endlessly I was limited to place where I could carry the 50 lb - in other words I was driving to the place with my car and working out of the boot of the car

The printed results from my TS-E 17 (four frames stitched) on my 5D II easily get the same printed quality as scanned slides form my 5x7 inch camera - printed at 24x36 inches with a high end printer.

But even if you don't scan and work in the darkroom on Baryt paper - the digital workflow with the TS-E 17 on the 5D II wins hands down.

I've never tried larger prints then 60 inches wide but even there I see no benefit using my beloved old system any more. It is bet case on the same level but we have not seen new highres cameras - and if Nikon and Canon publish 3x MPixel bodies the old film era is over for ever in terms of quality.

Here are some shots done with the TS-E 90 - which is btw one of the sharpies lenses I own:

http://www.jo-1.de/TS-E_90/index.html

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

surlyviking said:

Guaranteed that a view camera with a digital back would cost a LOT more than a EF TS-E lens.

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A full scanning back true, but a 4x5 monorail can be obtained used for less then a kilobuck. That was one of the reasons I started looking into that option.

joger said:

forget about the Lensbaby and the 4x5 camera option - size and weight are the foremost aspects when it comes to photography followed by optical quality. That exclude both options.

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Heh, good points. I actually have a Lensbaby already, left over from a project that did not pan out well. The optical quality and difficulty focusing worked out poorly for me.

The 4x5 option though, there are some fairly portable monorails that can be bought second hand for pretty cheap. Not as quick to set up as a DSLR on a tripod but not horrible either.

joger said:

The printed results from my TS-E 17 (four frames stitched) on my 5D II easily get the same printed quality as scanned slides form my 5x7 inch camera - printed at 24x36 inches with a high end printer.

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Do you do anything mechanical to get easily stiched frames? One of the reasons I was pondering the 4x5 solution was many of the DSLR backplates have sliders to help facilitate stiching.

Thanks for this excellent information. It's easy to forget that lenses designed to project a larger image circle don't exhibit the cutting-edge MTF needed at 35mm and smaller. That pretty much restricts us to commercial T/S lenses and adapters designed for small format.

--
http://jackandkelly.zenfolio.com/