(OT) Flying with unlocked backage

  • Thread starter Thread starter John-G
  • Start date Start date
I have it on good authority (I have a friend who flies 767's for a
living) that a person of reasonable intelligence can fly and land a
767, with instructions from the ground. (Yeah, just like on TV).
They literally CAN "land themselves".
Yup.

I believe the trick is to get the airplane down without putting undue stress on the landing gear and such, which takes a certain amount of training to get it exactly right each time. But being able to land in such a fashion that you'll still survive (although the aircraft itself might be fubar) reasonably unscathed doesn't take much effort.

However, as you said, the terrorists might've put the plane into a nosedive, which I believe can be hard to recover from given a airplane that size, even if you do have plenty of altitude between you and the ground. (but I'm far from 100% certain of this -- it certainly depends on the type of airplane involved)

In any case, keeping the terrorists outside the cockpit at all times is an important step in the right direction. I believe the improvised iron bar blocking the door serves well to ensure that only the trusted crew has access. The random searches at the gate OTOH is just putting on a show for the public. With the good old metal detectors most airports had prior to 9/11, you're still much safer onboard an airplane than walking down most city streets. (without having to resort to unlocked baggage and random checks at gates)

Often the simplest solutions are the best.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
 
Sure, but modern planes have automatic safeguards in place to
control (or rather keep from happening) stalls?
They have stall WARNING equipment..

Only on full-autopilot would a stall be prevented..

Something makes me doubt the terrorists entered a pre-compiled flight plan into the auto-pilot..
Or put differently: Did the airplane in question stall?
I don't know, could have been a flat spin or simply a steep crash too..

Could have even been shot down..

We'll prolly find out 50 years or more hence..

Keith

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/

"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together guys"

{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }
 
Searching gramma and her grandkids is senseless. I suspect
...actually...

If you have to search someone, I'd go for grandma as well. There's no upper age limit for terrorists, and certainly older people often seem less afraid of perishing (don't have many years left anyhow).

Although she herself doesn't pose much of a threat in a hijack situation, she could have an accomplice who'd be able to properly use that Uzi that grandma had hidden inside her right leg prosthesis. (not that someone would care to check an artificial limb anyway)

(Yes, the above is/was meant as a joke, but I for one will certainly watch who grandma is talking to after boarding the plane)

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/
 
Like it or not Jim, the Moslems have declared war on the West. They did this many years ago. However, because Clinton did nothing as they repeatedly attacked our Country and our facilities around the world, the Moslems thought they could continue the onslaught while Bush because President. They were wrong. Taking down the World Trade Center was a fatal error. The Us is fighting back now. People are wondering, will there be war with Iraq? The truth is that we are already at war, and it will continue for many, many years. Iraq is just the next target. The US will prevail.

J. Roberts
 
If that happened, even fully trained pilots probably would've run out of altitude far too soon.

If the terrorists put the plane into such an attitude, and nobody could get control of the plane back in a reasonably short time, it wouldn't matter.

Bottom line: even with the pilots dead, the only logical choice for the passengers (knowing what happened to the other planes) was to attempt to get control from the terrorists.
The problem is that is quite different from pulling out of a deep
descent, a spin. or a partial rolll.

For that, even experienced pilots need simulator time and training...

Sometimes, even they blow it in such situatiuons, as has happened
in other crashes..
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
A highly polarized thread with far too much rhetoric and posturing by some IMO.

While I consider myself a friend to America and certainly count Americans amongst my closest and best friends . . .

After this 911 bit I resolved to carry out a long intent to figure out just why the Middle East is such a hotbed of anti-American feeling.

Didn't take long. I read two books, by a Jewish author no less, on how Israel came to be and how she has maintained her position of dominance in the part of the world that the Arabs count as their own.

There is no doubt that, were I a Palestinian, I would have scant love for Israel . . . and perhaps less for her chief enabler, the USA.

I don't pretend to have the answers but I sympathize with the Arabs to the extent that a grave injustice was done to an entire people. I don't know how to rectify it but I did learn that the Israelis are not always right and the Arabs are not always wrong.

There is no doubt that there would never have been a 911 had American policy in the Middle East been a more balanced . . . at least not in my mind.

This in now way means I approve of what the terrorists did on 911. Of course I do not.

--
Terry Danks
Nature & Wildlife (Hummingbirds!) Photography
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/n1dcmc78/home.htm
 
Bottom line: even with the pilots dead, the only logical choice
for the passengers (knowing what happened to the other planes) was
to attempt to get control from the terrorists.
Agreed.

Keith

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/

"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together guys"

{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }
 
I don't see why it's so hard for people to adjust to these changes.
Me, I adjusted from day one. Load toothpaste, toothbrush and clean
clothing. And if it's expensive, leave it at home. If it's a
weapon, leave it at home.

It really isn't that hard.

And if you need it, buy it when you get there and if it's
important, they'll understand.

Life's easy if you let it.
Oh sure, I'll:

1) leave the 600 f/4 or 400 f2.8 at home when I'm covering sports..

2) Or maybe I'll just buy one there?

3) Maybe they'll let me take it as an extra carry-on?

It IS that hard if this is your profession.. Imagine if "Doctors Without Frontiers" had to buy their gear new each time they travelled.

Would business people put up with having to leave their laptops behind or buy/rent one every time they worked on the road?

Keith

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/

"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together guys"

{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }
 
DavidP wrote:

Although she herself doesn't pose much of a threat in a hijack
situation, she could have an accomplice who'd be able to properly
use that Uzi that grandma had hidden inside her right leg
prosthesis. (not that someone would care to check an artificial
limb anyway)
Which segues me nicely to another fear of unlocked luggage...

They just recently arrested a huge drug smuggling ring comprised of baggage handlers in NY.

Hmmm...

Think they just might use unlocked luggage as an easy way to convey drugs?

And who will the Feds blame first, if they don't retrieve them before I get to the carousel, and a narco-dog sniffs them out as I leave the airport?

Keith

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/

"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together guys"

{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }
 
I wonder how many will make it far enough down your post to see that?

Unfortunately, much of what has PO'd the Arabs and much of the world has been caused by the US ignoring its founding fathers on the issue of staying OUT of world affairs.
This in now way means I approve of what the terrorists did on 911.
Of course I do not.
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
Like it or not Jim, the Moslems have declared war on the West.
You're bviously part of the 2/3 of Americans who now believe Iraq was behind 9/11 too..

Muslims have NOT decalred war on the west.

Extreme right-wing Jihadists have.

Just like the right wing Christian nutbars (and I am a Christian) who think Islam, and non-Christians, are inherently evil there are right wing Islamists who think non-Muslims are inherently evil... (or right wing Israelis who think non-Jews are evil)

It's called intolerance.

It breeds hate...

And perpetuates a cycle of violence in either case.

Keith

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/

"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together guys"

{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }
 
We have this situation today because people in the Middle East are
being denied rights based on their ethnicity.
Denying people basic human rights anywhere, at any time, for any reason breeds, anger, hatred and violence..

It's bad enough when it is individualized but unacceptable when broad strokes apply it against groups..

Obviously some Americans have learned nothing from the experience of African-Americans during Reconstruction or Japanese-Americans during World War II..

How quickly we forget..

Keith

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/

"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together guys"

{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }
 
Unfortunately, much of what has PO'd the Arabs and much of the
world has been caused by the US ignoring its founding fathers on
the issue of staying OUT of world affairs.
This in now way means I approve of what the terrorists did on 911.
Of course I do not.
HERE HERE! to you both!

As Santayana said,

"Those who ignore the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat it."

Keith

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/

"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together guys"

{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }
 
The problem, of course, is that those in charge of the US (for at least the last 100 years) have as an ultimate goal a "one world gov't", one in which THEY will be in control.

You can't really do that if the US stays out of the business of foreign countries, as our forefathers so rightly wanted us to do.

You can't be the world's policeman unless you wield a LOT of power. And our federal gov't was never supposed to wield that kind of power.

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
I have flown many, many times domestic and international, including Cincinnati, Detroit, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, Houston, Tokyo (NRT), San Jose Costa Rica, Mexico City, Bangkok, Siem Reap (Cambodia), ...

This includes many trips since 9/11 and since TSA and TSA-comparable changes in security regimes at other international airports.

I have never once checked my LowePro Adventure Trekker gear bag, with D30 (now D60), 100-400, 100 macro, 16-35, 28-135, ST-E2, 1 or 2 550EX, lens hoods, TC-80N3, batteries, and miscellaneous fiddlybits.

Of course I look like a backpacker with that forest green LowePro pack on my back, but what the heck.

Security has never once given me any problem . They occasional ask "Are you in town for the {fill in event name here}?" To which I respond "No, I'm headed to {fill in city name here} where I do mostly art & archeology photography."

And until two days ago, in perhaps 7-8 international trips since 9/11, I have nearly always had my Manfrotto Carbon One 3443 (without BG grip head) strapped onto my LowePro pack. Yes, I had a big black metal complex menacing-looking object strapped to my pack and it has always passed security at all of those airports without special scrutiny. Pretty amazing, actually.

Until Friday that is, when security (at Tokyo Narita, T1/S4/G44) insisted on my tripod being taken away and checked into baggage. That's the first time. They were very nice about it. Evidently some airport staffer had to have carried it to T1/S2/G25, about 7-8 minutes away.

The gate staff tolerated my inquiries checking to see if it had arrived to the gate, and my request that it be handled specially (they didn't have a box but promised to put it on last with special attention). And the purser even had a text message sent to BKK and it was hand-picked first off the plane in manual cargo (we landed at a bus gate) and it was handed to me as I deplaned before getting on the shuttle bus. Now that's service! (Thank you Northwest!)

Note to self: never carry-on tripod again, not worth the hassle.

But this example is indicative of the experiences I have had with airport security and airline personnel in dealing with my equipment. The x-ray screeners are probably impressed or even intimidated by a big bag 'o' expensive camera gear, which they probably encounter fairly often with photojournalists. I am hardly ever asked to open the gear bag for manual inspection.

Not only do I always carry a fully-loaded LowePro gear backpack, I also have a student-type book shoulder/backpack which contains my Dell Latitude laptop and anything else I want to carry on.

It just isn't worth the possibility that I might arrive at my destination and find that my gear had been damaged or stolen due to its having been checked in baggage.

The dramatic temperature, pressure and humidity changes associated with airplanes and checked baggage are simply not something to which I will subject my lenses and gear. "The horror, the horror." -- Colonel Kurtz

- - -

I realize my experiences above are not relevant to everyone, specifically those persons who wouldn't ever walk around airports and planes with 35+ pounds in gear strapped to their back, looking like a pack mule.

Just my $0.02.

In the few instances where there has ever been any question from any airline gate staffer about the necessity of carrying on two bulky packs, I simply tell them that it is all expensive and sensitive camera, lenses and laptop computer and cannot be subjected to the environmental stresses and potential loss associated with checked baggage. That answer has always quelled any inquiries or challenges to my carrying on the gear.

Two final notes: (1) arrive early(er) so that you will find adequate overhead storage to contain your packs, and (2) I must confess that I'm usually (not always) in business class where they are generally more tolerant of passenger foibles like bulky carry-ons.

Regards,

--David H.
I can just see cameras and equipment disappearing left and right
with the new rules that "Checked" baggage must not be locked.
Geesh, I never quite trusted my checked bags even when it WAS
locked.
D60, BG-ED3, 16-35L, 28-135 IS, 100-400L, 100/2.8 macro,
(3)550-EX, ST-E2, TC-80N3, 2x1GB MD
also Sigma 14, Canon 20, Canon EF2X-II
Past 18 months: 30,000 exposures (mostly D30)
 
... in Cincinnati, and took every single item out. I kept each lens in a bag as well, so out they came. They even x-rayed some items twice. But ... they never asked me to demonstrate the camera, or even turn it, or my laptop, on!
KP
This includes many trips since 9/11 and since TSA and
TSA-comparable changes in security regimes at other international
airports.

I have never once checked my LowePro Adventure Trekker gear bag,
with D30 (now D60), 100-400, 100 macro, 16-35, 28-135, ST-E2, 1 or
2 550EX, lens hoods, TC-80N3, batteries, and miscellaneous
fiddlybits.

Of course I look like a backpacker with that forest green LowePro
pack on my back, but what the heck.

Security has never once given me any problem . They occasional ask
"Are you in town for the {fill in event name here}?" To which I
respond "No, I'm headed to {fill in city name here} where I do
mostly art & archeology photography."

And until two days ago, in perhaps 7-8 international trips since
9/11, I have nearly always had my Manfrotto Carbon One 3443
(without BG grip head) strapped onto my LowePro pack. Yes, I had a
big black metal complex menacing-looking object strapped to my pack
and it has always passed security at all of those airports without
special scrutiny.
Pretty amazing, actually.

Until Friday that is, when security (at Tokyo Narita, T1/S4/G44)
insisted on my tripod being taken away and checked into baggage.
That's the first time. They were very nice about it. Evidently some
airport staffer had to have carried it to T1/S2/G25, about 7-8
minutes away.

The gate staff tolerated my inquiries checking to see if it had
arrived to the gate, and my request that it be handled specially
(they didn't have a box but promised to put it on last with special
attention). And the purser even had a text message sent to BKK and
it was hand-picked first off the plane in manual cargo (we landed
at a bus gate) and it was handed to me as I deplaned before getting
on the shuttle bus. Now that's service! (Thank you Northwest!)

Note to self: never carry-on tripod again, not worth the hassle.

But this example is indicative of the experiences I have had with
airport security and airline personnel in dealing with my
equipment. The x-ray screeners are probably impressed or even
intimidated by a big bag 'o' expensive camera gear, which they
probably encounter fairly often with photojournalists. I am hardly
ever asked to open the gear bag for manual inspection.

Not only do I always carry a fully-loaded LowePro gear backpack, I
also have a student-type book shoulder/backpack which contains my
Dell Latitude laptop and anything else I want to carry on.

It just isn't worth the possibility that I might arrive at my
destination and find that my gear had been damaged or stolen due to
its having been checked in baggage.

The dramatic temperature, pressure and humidity changes associated
with airplanes and checked baggage are simply not something to
which I will subject my lenses and gear. "The horror, the horror."
-- Colonel Kurtz

- - -

I realize my experiences above are not relevant to everyone,
specifically those persons who wouldn't ever walk around airports
and planes with 35+ pounds in gear strapped to their back, looking
like a pack mule.

Just my $0.02.

In the few instances where there has ever been any question from
any airline gate staffer about the necessity of carrying on two
bulky packs, I simply tell them that it is all expensive and
sensitive camera, lenses and laptop computer and cannot be
subjected to the environmental stresses and potential loss
associated with checked baggage. That answer has always quelled any
inquiries or challenges to my carrying on the gear.

Two final notes: (1) arrive early(er) so that you will find
adequate overhead storage to contain your packs, and (2) I must
confess that I'm usually (not always) in business class where they
are generally more tolerant of passenger foibles like bulky
carry-ons.

Regards,

--David H.
I can just see cameras and equipment disappearing left and right
with the new rules that "Checked" baggage must not be locked.
Geesh, I never quite trusted my checked bags even when it WAS
locked.
D60, BG-ED3, 16-35L, 28-135 IS, 100-400L, 100/2.8 macro,
(3)550-EX, ST-E2, TC-80N3, 2x1GB MD
also Sigma 14, Canon 20, Canon EF2X-II
Past 18 months: 30,000 exposures (mostly D30)
--

A couple of Canon DSLRs, a nice off-white lens and some red-stripe lenses and one with a gold stripe, some misc. accessories including various photon ejectors and paper holders. A ton of film equipment from 35mm to 4 x 5. A minivan and a Fender Stratocaster. A three bedroom ranch on an acre. Also, absolutely no Canon 1200mm f/5.6.
 
I have to agree with this. I am a Brit and I have been to Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and Saudia Arabia. Loved all apart from Saudia Arabia cos you can buy a beer :) The people as individuals are wonderful and the hospitality in places such as Lebanon is outstanding (not to mention the food). The governments in most are not. I would say the same applies to the US. Some of the nicest people on Earth. Government questionable.

If you took religion out of the equation we would not have half these problems. I am Church of England but as a human I am often embarrassed at how much damage religion does. Be it the middle East (internally), Northern Ireland, or indeed religious vales driving the US government to cut Africa because charities don't conform to certain right wing ideologies whch are all very well when you are not dealing with extreme poverty and rampant, unstainable population growth.

How advanced as a species are we?
 

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