I’m not saying there are absolutely no advantages of full frame sensor but clearly you don’t know what they are. You don’t even know what the DOF difference is in your earlier post. The “magic IQ” or “wow factor” is so 2005 and most people have already gotten over that. Please wake up there is NO magic IQ or wow factor. Somehow you think when you crop an image 1.6x that will make it from “wow” to dull. Is that what you really believe?
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Classic 5D vs 7D
- Thread starter fotogary
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Why you don't post more photos from 7D to prove they can match FF and show us at 100% cropped size? Your three photos shown clearly otherwise. I also have 60D so I absolutely know what I am taking about. For portrait and studio, my 60D is clearly inferior to 5D and 1D3 in skin and bokeh smoothness by using the same lenses. 60D portrait (your 7D will be no difference) simply doesn't have that creamy look from 5D and 1D3. If you search on internet and 5D/1D forum, and read even in this thread those who actually use both said the same. Again I suggest you give a try yourself and I have no doubt you will find FF WOW factor. By the way why I need to crop serious portrait in studio or outdoor and I can close to the people in any distance on a given lens? In WA landscape you can use 17-40L or you can get 16-35L that will be better than your APS-C, no mention special lens such as TS-E and fisheye (old 15mm f/2.8 fisheye is still the best). For sports and wildlife professionals and high enthusiasts use 1D4/1D3 with 300L, 400L/2.8, 500Land 600L and still tack sharp with 1.4x TC with the clarity, color, bokeh and sharpness your 7D simply unable to match. So just ask those Pro and enthusiasts why they don't use 7D in studio, side of sport fields, bald eagle BIF and Africa safari if 7D can deliver the same IQ, performance while much cheaper and smaller? So they are wasting money?
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sierraphotography
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If you do a side by side comparison of a 5d vs. 7d, you'll notice.......
5d 98% coverage, 7d 100%
5d 3.9 fps max, 7d 8fps high
5d:
35-zone TTL full-aperture metering
Evaluative metering (linkable to any AF point)
Partial metering (approx. 8% of viewfinder at center)
Spot metering (approx. 3.5% of viewfinder at center)
Center-weighted average metering
7d:
63-zone SPC TTL metering with selectable modes
Evaluative metering (linkable to any AF point)
Partial metering (approx. 9.4% of viewfinder at center)
Spot metering (approx. 2.3% of viewfinder at center)
Center-weighted average metering
5d compatible lenses: ef
7d compatible lenses: Canon EF lenses including EF-S lenses (35mm-equivalent focal length is approx. 1.6x the lens focal length)
Other than the above, they both have eye level pentaprisms, same shutter speeds, same metering ranges, and same High-sensitivity, high-resolution, large single-plate CMOS sensor.
So a 7d has more perks, including price, and is slightly more versatile as far as lens choices. The main advantage of the 5d seems to be 21mp.....sooo the question is are 3 more mp worth it to you?
5d 98% coverage, 7d 100%
5d 3.9 fps max, 7d 8fps high
5d:
35-zone TTL full-aperture metering
Evaluative metering (linkable to any AF point)
Partial metering (approx. 8% of viewfinder at center)
Spot metering (approx. 3.5% of viewfinder at center)
Center-weighted average metering
7d:
63-zone SPC TTL metering with selectable modes
Evaluative metering (linkable to any AF point)
Partial metering (approx. 9.4% of viewfinder at center)
Spot metering (approx. 2.3% of viewfinder at center)
Center-weighted average metering
5d compatible lenses: ef
7d compatible lenses: Canon EF lenses including EF-S lenses (35mm-equivalent focal length is approx. 1.6x the lens focal length)
Other than the above, they both have eye level pentaprisms, same shutter speeds, same metering ranges, and same High-sensitivity, high-resolution, large single-plate CMOS sensor.
So a 7d has more perks, including price, and is slightly more versatile as far as lens choices. The main advantage of the 5d seems to be 21mp.....sooo the question is are 3 more mp worth it to you?
It's a big YES to professionals and high-end enthusiasts. Otherwise why not M43 if it has 80% of APS-C IQ, and why not Nikon 1 if it has 80% of M43 IQ, and why not G12/S95 as it seems deliver OK IQ in good light 
Why people spent that much to buy 1Ds3/D3X? 1D4/D3s instead of 7D/D300s in sports? Why a TS-E lens costs $2K? Why top fashion magazines sometime even don't think FF is enough but use much bigger and expensive MF in salon shots? Simply because they can do even 5% niche markets. For them the extra money absolutely worth it for ultimate IQ.
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Why people spent that much to buy 1Ds3/D3X? 1D4/D3s instead of 7D/D300s in sports? Why a TS-E lens costs $2K? Why top fashion magazines sometime even don't think FF is enough but use much bigger and expensive MF in salon shots? Simply because they can do even 5% niche markets. For them the extra money absolutely worth it for ultimate IQ.
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sierraphotography
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If you do a side by side comparison of a 5d vs. 7d, you'll notice.......
5d 98% coverage, 7d 100%
5d 3.9 fps max, 7d 8fps high
5d:
35-zone TTL full-aperture metering
Evaluative metering (linkable to any AF point)
Partial metering (approx. 8% of viewfinder at center)
Spot metering (approx. 3.5% of viewfinder at center)
Center-weighted average metering
7d:
63-zone SPC TTL metering with selectable modes
Evaluative metering (linkable to any AF point)
Partial metering (approx. 9.4% of viewfinder at center)
Spot metering (approx. 2.3% of viewfinder at center)
Center-weighted average metering
5d compatible lenses: ef
7d compatible lenses: Canon EF lenses including EF-S lenses (35mm-equivalent focal length is approx. 1.6x the lens focal length)
Other than the above, they both have eye level pentaprisms, same shutter speeds, same metering ranges, and same High-sensitivity, high-resolution, large single-plate CMOS sensor.
So a 7d has more perks, including price, and is slightly more versatile as far as lens choices. The main advantage of the 5d seems to be 21mp.....sooo the question is are 3 more mp worth it to you?
5d 98% coverage, 7d 100%
5d 3.9 fps max, 7d 8fps high
5d:
35-zone TTL full-aperture metering
Evaluative metering (linkable to any AF point)
Partial metering (approx. 8% of viewfinder at center)
Spot metering (approx. 3.5% of viewfinder at center)
Center-weighted average metering
7d:
63-zone SPC TTL metering with selectable modes
Evaluative metering (linkable to any AF point)
Partial metering (approx. 9.4% of viewfinder at center)
Spot metering (approx. 2.3% of viewfinder at center)
Center-weighted average metering
5d compatible lenses: ef
7d compatible lenses: Canon EF lenses including EF-S lenses (35mm-equivalent focal length is approx. 1.6x the lens focal length)
Other than the above, they both have eye level pentaprisms, same shutter speeds, same metering ranges, and same High-sensitivity, high-resolution, large single-plate CMOS sensor.
So a 7d has more perks, including price, and is slightly more versatile as far as lens choices. The main advantage of the 5d seems to be 21mp.....sooo the question is are 3 more mp worth it to you?
Those spec doesn't translate to IQ. Sure 7D is better in sports and action but in portrait and studio, FF 5D/5D2 is simply noticeable better, as said by so many, not just me And then in sports/wildlife, 7D/D300s simply not at the level of 1D4 and D3s for both performance and IQ. I am one of those hope 7D2 will be on 1.3x APS-H crop but I know it's a remote hope. Then I will get a used 1D4 eventually. So far I am not convinced by APS-C IQ which is just a small-format compromise. I bought 60D for casual and traveling purposes. Fortunately FF becomes an affordable option these years as many bought 5D2 these days to take advantage of big discount (I did also and will get tomorrow or Friday as I cannot wait 5D3). And used 1D3 (below $2K now) and soon 1D4 after 1-2 years are relative affordable, thanks be Canon shooters (compared to Nikon price). They will bring you to a different level if you ever try. But I understand everyone just can play on whatever he/she willing to spend or simply on the format he/she preferred. I read many chose M43 because of its smaller and lighter size/weight and quite happy on their choices. Nothing wrong on your choice but it's naive that smaller format can compete or even replace professional bigger-format gears.
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And then in sports/wildlife, 7D/D300s simply not at the level of 1D4 and D3s for both performance and IQ. I am one of those hope 7D2 will be on 1.3x APS-H crop but I know it's a remote hope. Then I will get a used 1D4 eventually. So far I am not convinced by APS-C IQ which is just a small-format compromise. I bought 60D for casual and traveling purposes. Fortunately FF becomes an affordable option these years as many bought 5D2 these days to take advantage of big discount (I did also and will get tomorrow or Friday as I cannot wait 5D3). And used 1D3 (below $2K now) and soon 1D4 after 1-2 years are relative affordable, thanks be Canon shooters (compared to Nikon price). They will bring you to a different level if you ever try. But I understand everyone just can play on whatever he/she willing to spend or simply on the format he/she preferred. I read many chose M43 because of its smaller and lighter size/weight and quite happy on their choices. Nothing wrong on your choice but it's naive that smaller format can compete or even replace professional bigger-format gears.--
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Faintandfuzzy
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....is when a large print like a 16x24 is done from each, people can't tell the difference. I remember Daniel Taylor posting some comparisons of each, side by side, at 100% screen view....and people struggled to guess which was which.
If you need to struggle at 100% screen size, you won't see it in print.
If you need to struggle at 100% screen size, you won't see it in print.
Faintandfuzzy
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Once the holiday craziness dies down, I'm going to grab my friends 5D2 and redo my side by side comparisons with my 7D. I had done this last year, but for the life of me I can't find where I put the images. I figured I'd just redo it and throw in a few extras. As usual, I'll probably find the old images after I redo them:
- Compare the 7D to the 5D2, side by side for print, base iso, and iso 3200/6400
- Compare scanned 35mm film vs the D700. There's a fellow on the Nikon forums that couldn't scan his way out of a paper bag. His scans are so horribly blurry that based upon his 35mm scan, a 1mp webcam would outresolve the best scans. I'll throw in a MF 6x7 film scan and a 4x5 scan.
- Compare the Pentax K-x vs the D700.....pretty much a 12mp FF vs 12mp crop test.
Who are you? It's so ridiculous why anyone should read your "review" as many credited sites such as DPR and IR already done very creditable reviews and tons of those who bought 5D2/5D these years found the FF WOW factor. You have yet to post any meaningful 7d photos to support what your claims and doubt if you even ever own 5D2 at this moment.
You're are a well known 7D fanboy without a substance, empty talking without backing up by any photos. Just a joke.
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You're are a well known 7D fanboy without a substance, empty talking without backing up by any photos. Just a joke.
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sierraphotography
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And you're probably right. I would love to have a FF sensor, but I wouldn't want to lose the other benefits of the 7d to have it. It's definitely a toss up for me. I guess I would have to experience the FF for myself before making the decision again. It would be nice to have everything in one.
Very fair. Don't get me wrong that 7D is an overall excellent small format camera that can do everything relative well to meet your normal satisfactions. But if you want to go to extra miles and give a try (but have to invest in decent FF lenses as well), you will find something in the new territory. I will not say there is sky and earth difference but there is some noticeable difference and it's up to you to decide if it's worth it. Everyone has different expectation that's why I bought 24mm TS-E II as I am tired of distortion from 24-105L and 16-40L, and now 5D2 (as I don't know how long will wait for 5D3), and even went such far to grab a used 500L (but it has a problem and being repaired by Canon and paid by seller; a few used 500L sell as hot potatoes on used-to-be new price these days in eBay) as I want to get better result in my planned Africa safari. The reason I bought a used 1D3 not a brand new 7D despite former costs a few hundred more in 2010 is that the ultimate IQ that will pay off in actions, wildlife and portrait (1D3 actually is one of the best portrait cameras and even better than 5D1 on my opinion). No regret as shown in my only two airshows I have attended so far, and will pay off in future safari and birding that I am going to build up interests with 500L (hope it get repaired to the factory default standard).
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No one did get you wrong. ;-) You are trying very hard to be a full frame snob. I think you did a terrific job there.
Once again - your living in your own little microcosm there. I see more 7D's than 5D's over the shoulders of pro's in the pits of motorsports events I attend.
And, in fact, their other cameras are crops too! LOL!
Exactly - why not? There are many photographic situations where a NEX7 would easily produce just as good a result as a 5DII for instance.Otherwise why not M43 if it has 80% of APS-C IQ, and why not Nikon 1 if it has 80% of M43 IQ, and why not G12/S95 as it seems deliver OK IQ in good light
Why don't many pros switch to mirrorless then? Because it all the other things - not IQ - that are important to them. For the vast majority of photographic situations, almost any current level digital camera will produce results that are perfectly saleable and almost indistinguishable from one another for the vast majority of the population.
If you feel you must have a FF camera to be able to produce professional quality images then you are either incompetent or sadly mistaken.
Better AF and higher burst rate in a more durable body. It has nothing to do with IQ.
Because it's a specialised, low volume lens that is more complicated to manufacture. And that's all.
digital_photog
Leading Member
It depends on your needs!!! I have both the 5D (first) and 7D. Each has it's place in my bags. I use the 7D for BIF and the 5D for landscapes & portrait work.
The use of wide angle lenses such as the 17-40 work best on the full frame camera and the longer lenses such as the 100-400mm work best on the 7d (for me).
The use of wide angle lenses such as the 17-40 work best on the full frame camera and the longer lenses such as the 100-400mm work best on the 7d (for me).
Faintandfuzzy
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Mount the Sigma 8-16 or Tokina 11-16 on the 7D and you'll never use the old 5D for a landscape again. Not sure why anyone would want to as I normally want the highest resolution for my landscapes.
That small group of 7D fanboy club shares one common character - empty talks without photos to backup claims, ignore credited reviews and mainstream opinions from tons of professionals and enthusiasts who actually own and experience different format cameras. You can talk whatever you wanted but simply lacking of substance to support what you said. In another thread before you debated with me that you claimed 7D can match 5D at per-pixel IQ in portrait. I have since posted 100% cropped photos and can post lots more but you have not posted a single one from yours. In earlier posts of this thread we debated on the bokeh quality and creamy effect from 5D vs 1.6x crop then you jumped in and shifted topic to sports and actions...Anyway it really doesn't matter how others show you and you can talk endlessly in empty bubble words.
Your statement below clearly show how you're lacking of knowledge or how fanboyism you're. This shows how you are disconnected from reality and only clearly show you basically never experienced FF and APS-H. You can say whatever in this forum as most are APS-C owners and they don't care but I'd encourage you to post such statement in 1D/5D forum and let's see what responses you will get.
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Your statement below clearly show how you're lacking of knowledge or how fanboyism you're. This shows how you are disconnected from reality and only clearly show you basically never experienced FF and APS-H. You can say whatever in this forum as most are APS-C owners and they don't care but I'd encourage you to post such statement in 1D/5D forum and let's see what responses you will get.
I have posted my photos in 100% cropped and in high ISOs to show the creamy effect and smooth rendition on people's faces and in bokeh from larger sensors of 5D and 1D3. Can you post your photos to counter-claim and show how your 7D can match or even better? Ohterwise whatever you said is really irrelevant.
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Correction - I didn't "shift topics" at all! I returned to the point of the original post!
It's you that have turned this thread into some type of todger measuring contest about tiny differences in image quality!
There is much more to consider when weighting up the relative merits of these two cameras - differences in image quality are trivial when you consider the whole package.
But we still have to sit through embarrassing exchanges between you and Michel blowing smoke up each other about how "specially magic and creamy" the 5D is. Funny thing is - most of us here disagree that there is any significant difference - a fact you simply cannot accept! LOL! :-D
Getting back to the OP's post
The answer would depend on many things
What does the OP shoot?
What glass does the OP have?
What does the OP want to achieve?
There are certain advantages to each, but those special things are not a function of the body alone
It is the photographer, the light, the lenses, the processing,and the body
For me - I work weddings and portraits at 12x18 and below mostly
The 5d and 40 d with the other 4 elements above serve me well
The answer would depend on many things
What does the OP shoot?
What glass does the OP have?
What does the OP want to achieve?
There are certain advantages to each, but those special things are not a function of the body alone
It is the photographer, the light, the lenses, the processing,and the body
For me - I work weddings and portraits at 12x18 and below mostly
The 5d and 40 d with the other 4 elements above serve me well
If you directly responded to OP then you’d stay in the topic. But you reposed my post in the sub topic of FF vs APS-C in portrait IQ and bokeh. Then instead of providing your photos to “prove” the “trivial” difference, you shifted to sports and actions that is nothing to do with the sub topic we were debating upon. That’s what I called you shifted topic.
It’s very normal that one thread divided into several sub topics. I did response to OP and someone else multiple times that 60D should complement OP’s 5D2 very well. But under each sub topic such as FF vs APS-C in portrait and bokeh IQ, we should stay in the topic and provid substance to backup what we respectively claim as I did, but you failed to do with a substance.
We are not talking which camera is more suitable one-for-all but specific in respective area in the sub topic that is portraiture photography. In this area, many who actually own and use FF and APS-C overwhelmingly agree FF camera is noticeable better in portrait in smooth rendition and bokeh. You might not see as a big deal (as you never experienced and even never want to face it), but many do see and the difference to many including those bought FF just for portrait and studio (while still own crop) is quite substantial. If you don’t care that difference (I will not call sky and earth difference though) as a big deal you have all rights. This is not a dispute between us. The dispute between us is that you actually claim no IQ difference and go such far that your 7D can take as good as portrait as FF 5D or as good actions/sports as 1D4/1D3 while you failed to provide your photos to back up what you claimed, no mention that against mainstream options among professionals and high-end enthusiasts. You just cannot accept the fact that although 7D is an overall good camera it is not at professional level in every field of photography and the difference is quite substantial when compared to specialized professional cameras in each category. FF takes noticeable better in studio and portrait and 1D4/1D3 is noticeable better in sports, wildlife and actions, the fact you just unwilling to face it.
Some persons such as Michael see the difference and he chooses another FF as a backup camera. That’s his choice as the OP chooses whatever on his needs. But the creamy smooth rendition and bokeh do exist that basically lacking off in APS-C. I provided the photos to support the claim and agreed by others who actually experienced FF and unlike you just talk in empty. You can see that creamy effect as everyone else with normal eyes but just don't want to admit. If you think your 7D also can match IQ in portrait and bokeh why you don’t provide your photos rather run away as a coward. I am still waiting your 100% cropped 7D portrait photos on your claim from another thread earlier that 7D can match 5D at per-pixel basis. You claimed so you need to prove what you said rather just shifting topic and run away. If you just merely don’t think the difference is a big deal to you that is fine. But your issue is that you vigorously argued that and claimed no difference while failed to provide photos to support your claim, nor willing to deal with the evidence others provided but still “arguing” without a merit. That’s your issue.
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