Upgrade 60d to 7d

Hi everyone,

I know this topic of upgrade might have come about many a times but I guess when we are spending our hard earned and saved money we need constructive advice before we spend it. As the subject suggests I own a 60d and have had it for a while. I shoot family, friends, and my 4 year old.

When I bought the 60d, I had not enough to afford the 7d, but now I am in a position to get one by part exchanging and adding a bit of money.

I find it is becoming harder to shoot my 4 year old, and difficult to capture his emotions, him playing..... And as much as this might be down to technique I feel the 7d with the less shutter lag and faster af might be the way to go.
I recently purchased a 70-200 f4L IS and have the 17-85 and 85mm f1.8

My trade would consist of the 60d and the 17-85 + money to get body only 7d. I'm seeking some advice please, where if someone who has done the same as I intend to, or can shed some light to my confused mind.

Or should I just stay with the 60d and put the money towards another lens. ie trade the 17-85 for 15-85 and save the rest of the cash for speedlite, .....
Your input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanking you
IM

Is kind of difficult figure out what kind of problems you are having capturing your 4 year old son with the info you give. I mean, many uses the 60D, or even the 600D for some sports and wildlife, and I'm sure it should be a much harder subject to shoot than a running kid.

What do you mean by capturing his emotions and him playing? Are you having motion blur, camera shake, noise?

Just assuming you don't have a speed light, now that will do make tons of difference in the kind of photography that you do, simply because no internal flash is as powerful or practical as an external flash unit. If you get a 430EX II, you will be able to fire it wirelessly using your camera pop up flash, or even mix both flashes.

The 7D is a very sophisticated tool, made for professionals under extreme circumstances, I see it as overwhelming for a father trying to capture his son playing, if you know what I mean.

Another issue is that your 17-85mm is not know for being a good lens. Some even have better results with the basic 18-55mm than with the 17-85. I don't have it, and I can't tell for sure, but is what I've read many times.

If I where in your position, I would invest in a much better standard zoom and a flash unit. I would consider the 15-85mm as first option, but I got the Sigma 17-70mm instead, because was practically half the price down here in Panama, and I'm very happy with it so far. Actually is one of my sharpest lenses. The second thing I would get is a Canon 430EX II or 580EX II. Since you will be using it for somewhat short distances, the 430 might be more than enough for your needs, but if you can reach out for the 580, do so. You won't regret it, and you'll wonder how you lived without an external flash. It opens up a whole new world of creativity you can't imagine.

What do you talk about the 60D shutter lag? The 7D is 149 milliseconds, while the 60D is 159 milliseconds, on auto AF point selection. Do you think you can sense a 10 millisecond difference? Are you a Vulcan or something

Iceman1973 said:

Hi everyone,

I know this topic of upgrade might have come about many a times but I guess when we are spending our hard earned and saved money we need constructive advice before we spend it. As the subject suggests I own a 60d and have had it for a while. I shoot family, friends, and my 4 year old.

When I bought the 60d, I had not enough to afford the 7d, but now I am in a position to get one by part exchanging and adding a bit of money.

I find it is becoming harder to shoot my 4 year old, and difficult to capture his emotions, him playing..... And as much as this might be down to technique I feel the 7d with the less shutter lag and faster af might be the way to go.
I recently purchased a 70-200 f4L IS and have the 17-85 and 85mm f1.8

My trade would consist of the 60d and the 17-85 + money to get body only 7d. I'm seeking some advice please, where if someone who has done the same as I intend to, or can shed some light to my confused mind.

Or should I just stay with the 60d and put the money towards another lens. ie trade the 17-85 for 15-85 and save the rest of the cash for speedlite, .....
Your input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanking you
IM

Click to expand...

--
Martin Ocando
-------------------------

Forget about your SDs. You'll need CF cards or an CF to SD adapter, and the latter is not a solution, since is way slower than a UDMA CF the 7D needs to fill the card with 8fps RAWs.

Also, forget about the swivel LCD screen. If you are used to the screen for video or tripod in uncomfortable positions, the LCD on the 7D is fixed.

I've been wandering about this upgrade for months, but will not do it, simply because Magic Lantern firmware doesn't run on the 7D, and I will be loosing all the great new features ML opens on my 60D.

Do you know what Magic Lantern is, do you?
--
Martin Ocando
-------------------------

Iceman1973 said:

I find it is becoming harder to shoot my 4 year old, and difficult to capture his emotions, him playing..... And as much as this might be down to technique I feel the 7d with the less shutter lag and faster af might be the way to go.

Click to expand...

the shutter lag difference will make almost zero real world difference if your main subject is your son.

AF point coverage would make a difference is your have trouble keep your son on the center AF point of 60D, but I suspect this isnt your issue, and if you dont have this issue then 7d's better AF coverage will also make no difference to your shooting.

I also dont think you will gain anything from the extra FPS for this sort of shooting.

Iceman1973 said:

My trade would consist of the 60d and the 17-85 + money to get body only 7d.

Click to expand...

17-85 is not a particularly good lens, if this is your only chance to et rid of it at a decent price when I would say go for it,

Iceman1973 said:

Or should I just stay with the 60d and put the money towards another lens. ie trade the 17-85 for 15-85 and save the rest of the cash for speedlite, .....

Click to expand...

if you can do this then this is a much better option IMHO, even better, get then 17-55. At 55mm, F5.6 -> f2.8 will make a lot more difference to your image than any thing 7D would provide.

Martin Ocando said:

What do you talk about the 60D shutter lag? The 7D is 149 milliseconds, while the 60D is 159 milliseconds, on auto AF point selection. Do you think you can sense a 10 millisecond difference? Are you a Vulcan or something

Click to expand...

Double When I read that I was wondering "what lag?"

OP, by changing to the 7D you are not going gain anything worth while to you for what you are shooting. The 60D has the ability to do what you want and more. I think you would be much better off spending the money on a better lens and/or flash and learning your 60D's functions better so that you get more out of it. No offense intended, but it doesn't seem to me like you've mastered the 60D yet and moving to a camera that is even more complex is likely to add to your issues.

--
Randy

I would 2nd that . The 2.8 can make a world of difference . As for flash - for kids in the same room - the pop up is probably good enough .
--
1st it's a hobby
7D gripped XTI gripped
Canon - efs 10-22 , 17-55 , ef 18-55 IS
EF 28-90 , 28 @ 2.8 , 50 @1.8 , 28-135 IS
L's 35-350 , 70-200 MK II IS
Quantaray lens 70-300 macro
Sigma 135 - 400 , 180 MACRO
2X III , Life Size converter
KSM filters for all
kenko auto tubes , EF 25

The 7D will not help you get better pictures of your 4 year old. Unless he plays High School Football. Really, I have both cameras and the 60D as well as most other DLSR's will do just fine. You need a fast lens. My favorite lens for my 4 year old and 2 year old is the Sigma 30mm f1.4 but the Nifty Fifty does well also although it does not focus that fast.

--

Iceman

Keep the 60D, and your lenses. Get a good flash 430ex or 580ex, and have it set to bounce off the ceiling or walls. You'll get much better pics.

Next thing...use back button focus and set focusing on AI Servo. Keep your thumb on the back button..it will follow the action and keep focusing. Have your shutter in hi speed multi exposures, set in JPG only, no RAW. Fire multi exposures, with or without the flash. You are sure to get some good ones. Remember the background is very important, context and get in close. Frame that little face.

This way you'll have enormous speed and excellent light. Focus will follow and always be spot on.

Forget the upgrade and the extra lenses...you are on the enless search for perfection...but learn to use the 60D to its full potential first. You might be very suprised.

Let us know how you get on.

cheers Dave S

Thank you everyone for your kind thoughts and insight.

From what I've read, and based on snapsort comparisons, the 60d has a shutter lad of 253ms, as opposed to the 7d which has 131ms.

I have considered the other lenses, and like I'd mentioned, I do own the 85mm f1.8 and the 70-200 f4L IS. I hope to move to full frame by maybe end of 2012 or middle of 2013 so I'm trying to keep away from EFS. The 17-85 f4 was the kit lens with the 60D.

Upon close inspection, I do find the pics from the 60D have some blur, which could be motion or cam shake, but I shoot raw, and a bump in sharpness sorts out the results good enough to my satisfaction. (I've also been told that DXO Optics is very good at correcting these issues.)

The other issue is, and again it's probably technique, but I cannot get af lock on my sons eye when taking his pics... Af servo does not show af points being tracked so most of the times - its either a hit, or .... (another reason to move to a more sophisticated and af system which might work)

I'm also taking into consideration that as he grows up, he will be playing lot of outdoor / indoor sports, drama...etc, so maybe the 7d will suit for this purpose.

I've had the opportunity to try out the 24-70 / 24-104 red ring, which also had some bluriness on close inspection (I will post these test pics once I'm home tonight for you to observe) which boils down to either getting the camera calibrated, or have one which has the micro adjust feature - ie. 7D.

Video is fantastic on the 60D - I know magic lantern, and I've used peaking on the nex 5.... but I use the LCDVF when shooting video as it gives better stability, and the whole lcdvf manual focus thing just works for me. So swivel or not does not make much of a difference.

The 17-55 may be a very good lens, but it costs around £800 here, and the 24-70 red ring is around £1000 - personally I'd spend the additional £200 (or save up for it) and get the 24-70.

But thank you for the insight - very appreciated. I am still considering this upgrade seriously, and will still hunt around for the best deal, or settle with a suitable lens and a external flash.

Thank you
IM

Iceman1973 said:

Hi everyone,

I know this topic of upgrade might have come about many a times but I guess when we are spending our hard earned and saved money we need constructive advice before we spend it. As the subject suggests I own a 60d and have had it for a while. I shoot family, friends, and my 4 year old.

When I bought the 60d, I had not enough to afford the 7d, but now I am in a position to get one by part exchanging and adding a bit of money.

I find it is becoming harder to shoot my 4 year old, and difficult to capture his emotions, him playing..... And as much as this might be down to technique I feel the 7d with the less shutter lag and faster af might be the way to go.
I recently purchased a 70-200 f4L IS and have the 17-85 and 85mm f1.8

My trade would consist of the 60d and the 17-85 + money to get body only 7d. I'm seeking some advice please, where if someone who has done the same as I intend to, or can shed some light to my confused mind.

Or should I just stay with the 60d and put the money towards another lens. ie trade the 17-85 for 15-85 and save the rest of the cash for speedlite, .....
Your input will be greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

The difference in shutter lag will make virtually zero difference. So if that is one of your main reasons for upgrading to a 7D, you're wasting your money. As for AF performance, that's not going to make a huge difference either. You'd be probably much better off getting a faster (larger aperture) lens. Ditch the slow 17-85 and get a 17-55/2.8 IS lens instead. A brighter lens does help with AF speed, particularly indoors.

I shoot weddings and portraits. Lots of people photography. This also includes shooting kids. These two sets of images below were shot a few years ago with a Canon 35/1.4L on a Canon 20D. The 20D easily has inferior AF compared to a 60D, but I had no problem catching the fleeting moments and expressions of these two small children, even when shooting with fairly shallow depth of field that required very precise AF accuracy.





My advice is, don't waste your money upgrading to a 7D but still using a slow 17-85 lens on it! That's like buying a sports car but putting minivan tires on it. Instead, invest your money in some new fast glass, like the 17-55/2.8IS or the gorgeous and fast 35/1.4L. Plus, practice, practice, practice. Poor skill with a more expensive camera will still yield poor results.

Iceman1973 said:

Thank you everyone for your kind thoughts and insight.

From what I've read, and based on snapsort comparisons, the 60d has a shutter lad of 253ms, as opposed to the 7d which has 131ms.

Click to expand...

Just to put things into perspective for you, a human eye blink (a reflex blink: closing down and opening up again) takes 150 milliseconds. So the supposed difference in shutter lag between a 7D and a 60D is less time than the blink of an eye, literally. Is that really going to make a difference in your photography, so much so that it would be worthwhile to change your camera? I don't think so. Sure, the difference in shutter lag times might seem impressive on paper, but in the real world it won't translate to much of a practical difference at all.

Iceman1973 said:

Thank you everyone for your kind thoughts and insight.

From what I've read, and based on snapsort comparisons, the 60d has a shutter lad of 253ms, as opposed to the 7d which has 131ms.

Click to expand...

these numbers are from image resources I think, it is misunderstood, it is not real "shutter lag", it includes AF time from one end to the other. in real world this is rarely an issue.

the real shutter lag, i.e. with AF already in place, the time it takes from the moment you press the shutter button to camera takes the picture, is 0.063 for 60D and 0.061 for 7D.

Iceman1973 said:

I have considered the other lenses, and like I'd mentioned, I do own the 85mm f1.8 and the 70-200 f4L IS. I hope to move to full frame by maybe end of 2012 or middle of 2013 so I'm trying to keep away from EFS. The 17-85 f4 was the kit lens with the 60D.

Click to expand...

a whole year of shooting with crap lens is a whole year less of your life shooting with great lens.

there really is little point in doing this, firstly top end EFS lenses hold their value well, secondly chances are even after you get a FF body you will still keep a APS-C body. EF-s lenses will still have their use.

Iceman1973 said:

Upon close inspection, I do find the pics from the 60D have some blur, which could be motion or cam shake, but I shoot raw, and a bump in sharpness sorts out the results good enough to my satisfaction. (I've also been told that DXO Optics is very good at correcting these issues.)

Click to expand...

motion blur can not be removed, it can only be prevented with better shooting technique or faster shutter speed. both can benefit from lenses like 17-55 F2.8 IS.

Iceman1973 said:

The other issue is, and again it's probably technique, but I cannot get af lock on my sons eye when taking his pics... Af servo does not show af points being tracked so most of the times - its either a hit, or .... (another reason to move to a more sophisticated and af system which might work)

Click to expand...

if you cant get a simpler AF system to work as intended, chance of you using a more complex one properly is slim, in 60D it is very easy to select a particular AF point in AI-servo, and that is what you should do.

Iceman1973 said:

I'm also taking into consideration that as he grows up, he will be playing lot of outdoor / indoor sports, drama...etc, so maybe the 7d will suit for this purpose.

Click to expand...

he is 4 right now? by the time that you can't keep track of him with single af point you will be looking at 7D Mark 4 or X0D.

Iceman1973 said:

I've had the opportunity to try out the 24-70 / 24-104 red ring, which also had some bluriness on close inspection (I will post these test pics once I'm home tonight for you to observe) which boils down to either getting the camera calibrated, or have one which has the micro adjust feature - ie. 7D.

Click to expand...

24-70 is simply not very sharp. and both could be due to motion blur too.

Iceman1973 said:

The 17-55 may be a very good lens, but it costs around £800 here, and the 24-70 red ring is around £1000 - personally I'd spend the additional £200 (or save up for it) and get the 24-70.

Click to expand...

17-55 is superior to 24-70 in every aspect except build quality and weather seal.

The 60D might suffice but you clearly want a 7D...so buy a 7D! Life's too short to go through it wondering what could've been. I'd advise you though to get a 17-55f2.8IS with it and not the 24-70f2.8L unless you intend to move up to FF soon. I have both lenses and assure you the 17-55 suits the 7D better. [The 24-70L really comes alive on my 5D2.]
Brgds

I agree with OK55 ... if you can afford and want it, just buy it... I have bought mine more than a year ago and I think it's a great camera. I have the 15-85mm but am thinking about upgrading to a 2.8 lens as the 15-85 is a great walk around lens but sometimes a bit too slow indoors.... The 7D has a steep learning curve, well for me at least and my wife takes worse pictures with it than with a 550D (just to show you that upgrading to a more expensive DSLR doesn't necessarily mean better pictures). It has a lot of settings that can be customised and I must say that even after a year I still experiment with a lot of settings to try and improve the pictures I take.... I'm still learning....I think the cheaper option is to get a good speedlite and a faster lens but if you really want the 7D then buy it...you won't regret it for one second...

I agree the 24-70 is not sharp wide open and therefore not a great existing light lens for inside if you're using it wide open (like shooting kids in a living room with one light bulb in the corner), however... when used with my strobes stopped down to f8 or more this lens makes me giggle like a schoolboy every time I view my shots at 100%. VERY sharp when stopped down. It's my go-to workhorse for obtaining the highest quality images I can provide clients. (with a 60D I might add.)

get the 17-55, your camera is fine. Or at least 50 1.4.

Don't waste your money on a new body, it will not make a difference. I'm not sure what your issues are but I'm sure its user related. I've taken thousands of action shots of my son throughout the years with Rebels and 60D.

Either freeze the action with an external flash, get a faster lens, or shoot with a higher shutter speed/ISO. You can reduce noise, even at 3200 ISO, with PP.

--
Sam K., NYC

Hi Everyone,

Than you very much for your input again. I am very much convinced to keep the 60d and put the money towards another lens... ie trade the 17-85, and practice and get to learn the af system more. I will post some pictures later on and ask for some CC.
Looking at either the 17-55 or the 15-85.

Thank you again.
IM

Iceman1973 said:

Hi Everyone,

Than you very much for your input again. I am very much convinced to keep the 60d and put the money towards another lens... ie trade the 17-85, and practice and get to learn the af system more. I will post some pictures later on and ask for some CC.
Looking at either the 17-55 or the 15-85.

Thank you again.
IM

Click to expand...

--
Martin Ocando
-------------------------

Iceman1973 said:

Hi Everyone,

Than you very much for your input again. I am very much convinced to keep the 60d and put the money towards another lens... ie trade the 17-85, and practice and get to learn the af system more. I will post some pictures later on and ask for some CC.
Looking at either the 17-55 or the 15-85.

Click to expand...

Before buying a new lens, try shooting at 1600 or even 3200 ISO with a high shutter speed for fast moving subjects. This will achieve the same as a faster lens. If the noise is unacceptable, clean it up with one of the several PP programs.

Use center AF point as well. Good luck!

--
Sam K., NYC