Ricoh's Hint RE: Pentax

I suggest a very important question to be answered is: why does Sigma make certain lenses available in Pentax mount but not others.
?? Which lenses are these?

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...That's the obstacle that needs to be overcome. Is it one of technology or is it one of market viability (for example do they not make a 120-300 2.8 because it is for some reason too difficult to achieve in Pentax mount or because they just don't think they'll sell enough of them to justify the cost?). You have to solve that problem and not just for a couple year period - Sigma is going to need to believe there's a long term solution with them in the mix for them to play along.
Keep in mind that Ricoh is in the business of making and selling lenses, now . A ramp-up of the K-mount line is possibly in the works as we speak - word out of Japan is they're hiring engineers now.

Sigma + Tamron have steped away a bit from K-mount in recent years because they didn;t know where it was going, frankly, and they saw nothing but a slow contraction of market share ahead. A Ricoh investment in K-mount sends a strong signal to the 3rd parties that K-mount is here to stay and in fact will grow.

The FF bodies from Nikon all show a per-unit profit, so any new Pentax FF body is not going to be something like a loss-leader - but you are correct in that the ROI schedule is going to be much faster if they have an expanded FF lens lineup to sell along side the bodies. Almost all mid-tir and higher lenses are relatively high-margin.

Luckily, as I said, Ricoh is now in the business of selling lenses. An excellent FF body is going to be the perfect delivery system for those lenses. :)

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Here are a few of my favorite things...
---> http://www.flickr.com/photos/95095968@N00/sets/72157626171532197/
 
I think that Pentax doesn't need to release a new camera every 18 months or so, how it did with K20 to K7 to K5.
Because the cameras pentax has release cameras at that rate.
Look at Canon 5D series life line. The original 5D was released in 2005. 3 years later, in 2008, the Canon 5D Mark 2 is released. 3 years later, 5DMk2 is still a stellar camera. It speaks for itself.
It does so because, so far, it didn't have competition with full-frame, high pixel count cameras releasing more frequently.
Pentax needs to put together a great, complete DSLR, (FF or APS-C) that will have a long life line, and NOT compete with the 18 month life cycle DSLRs. They should release something with great AF tracking, FPS, and image quality that will stand the test of a 3 year life life, the way Canon 5D series does. From 2008 to 2010, Pentax put work into 3 successive camera bodies. In 2008, Canon just kept releasing firmware for 5DMk2 and it's still selling.
So there are a couple points here. First you talk about "great AF tracking". Clearly that problem is much easier said than done. If it were easy, Oly and Pentax would have done it already. They haven't. And, all you need to do is look at Canon's issues with focus in their 1dIII ad 1dIV to see that it's VERY complicated at the high end to "get it right". Of course it's even more complicated by the notion of these large file sizes and the processing power necessary to do the complicated focus tracking and metering and file movement. That's huge. And, unlike sensors, you can't rely on another company to do it for you.

As to the 5dII - the focus system is decent, but certainly not great. The focus system is NOT what sells the 5dII. It's not. The 7d has a better focus system, as does the D700 in nikon. The focus system of the 5d is probably it's weak point.

And that brings us to the next point - Pentax uses Sony sensors. So do Sony and Nikon. You're not going to have much of a competitive advantage using the same sensor as the competition. There are some minor advantages - mostly over sony right now because of how they implement. But no real advantage over Nikon in a segment where Nikon is releasing cameras every 18 months or so. So, to accomplish what you want, Pentax needs to use a sensor the competition is NOT using in their 18 month life cycle cameras.
Why must Pentax release their main DSLR every 18 months? It like quicksand.
Because they don't have a class leading camera concept. The k-5 competes with the D7000 / d300s and 60d/7d cameras. Without very significant strides in focus system performance, Pentax can't be class-leading at the d300s/7d level for sports/wildlifel. Just can't. When you're talking about other types of photography, then you're talking d7000/60d - so now sensor performance is paramount. Now we're back to Pentax having a sensor no one else has that will last for 3 years with no one else leap frogging.

The alternative is to try and compete with the full frame guys - like it or not full frame will always beat aps-c for IQ and noise when you're talking same vintage. So, the next full-frame sensor will again push ahead of the sony 24mp aps-c. So, to accomplish what you want, pentax would have to go that route. And, there are plenty of posts here about why pentax won't go full frame.

It's a catch-22. They're not up to snuff with the 7d/d300s. And they don't have the long lenses anyway. So, even if they improve the focus system - they need the 300mm, 400mm and 500mm lenses to compete with Canon & Nikon. Otherwise, even if they could get their focus system up, the sports and wildlife shooters would still choose canon/nikon because you need the lenses. If you build the lenses and the focus system doesn't hold up - people will still choose canon/nikon. So pentax has to do BOTH And at the same time.

AND, even if pentax does get an aps-c solution or full frame solution - all that will do is drive canon/nikon to respond. The easiest way to respond is to bring advancements to market sooner.

So, to really get to your idea - pentax needs something completely unique - not just something like what the competition has. When it's a 2-man race you can keep things throttled back (like we see with Canon/nikon at the higher end). Once you get to 3 players then we see change in reducing the time-to-market of new models.
 
They don't even had to make a 100% complete design. Since Sony stopped making their A900 to concentrate on making their new A9x (A77 body with a FF sensor) the only thing they had to do is buy the moldings for the body and/or the machinery to make its huge Penta-Prism OVF, or whatever equipment was necessary to make the A900, and install inside the new Sony 36MP's FF sensor, add Live-View, Pentax lens mount and hot shoe, and sell them as the new Pentax FF cameras. Almost the same thing they did when they bought the rights from Minolta to use their In-Body stabilization system for the Pentax. You can be sure is less money than what they already throw out making the Q.
 
Are you certain you have not left out a few steps?

I'm not a DSLR design engineer (before somebody else points that out - and they will) but I have this suspicion that we're talking about a new motherboard, new image processing engine to handle all them pixels, more RAM and buffer, AF sensor (that takes light temperature into account), a faster (UHS-1) SD card interface, and the beer engine that allows us to pull a pint of better from the cellar. The last is my favorite part.

Plus all the stuff I cannot think of.

I like the idea of re-using existing design work but I don't have much faith that enough can be re-used to make a difference.

And I expect that Pentax would like to take a beyond the A900 at this point. Re-use of the housing may end up by generating small savings and shut the door to some very creative design decisions.
They don't even had to make a 100% complete design. Since Sony stopped making their A900 to concentrate on making their new A9x (A77 body with a FF sensor) the only thing they had to do is buy the moldings for the body and/or the machinery to make its huge Penta-Prism OVF, or whatever equipment was necessary to make the A900, and install inside the new Sony 36MP's FF sensor, add Live-View, Pentax lens mount and hot shoe, and sell them as the new Pentax FF cameras. Almost the same thing they did when they bought the rights from Minolta to use their In-Body stabilization system for the Pentax. You can be sure is less money than what they already throw out making the Q.
 
While Q is an great camera.... the price is not right. This is a wasted effort for Pentax... as I see most reviews praise the design and the quality images, most also feel the price is too high.
This time last year the forums were full of people saying exactly the same thing about the K-5 ...

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Gerry


First camera 1953, first Pentax 1983, first DSLR 2006
http://www.pbase.com/gerrywinterbourne
 
FF is only a gap in the Pentax DSLR Lineup, not in the global market, hence this wishful thinking doesn't hold ground against the gap theory unless Pentax-Ricoh can make a FF camera the size of an APS-C, which would be nice. Imagine, a FF DSLR that is the size of with the quality viewfinder of an Pentax ME .... oooooh more wishful thinking ;-)

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Roger
 
If anyone can make a small FF SLR camera is Pentax. Well although Olympus made a beautiful and small OM-1 many years ago!
 
I agree with you.

I think they see the current trend (rush?) to quality mirrorless. I think there are lots of folks out there there like me who want to be able to use their Pentax lenses on a quality mirrorless Ricoh or Pentax and do not want to wait forever. So Ricoh want us to delay a purchase.

My instinctual -- and totally uninformed -- guess is they want to stop people like me buying a Sony NEX 7 or Samsung NX200, and buy a Ricoh GXR with a new module that will fit Pentax lenses. From a Ricoh perspective, I think this is a gap.

I do not think they can afford to be more ambitious than this. Small players cannot compete easily where every store and brochure I see displays mostly Nikon and Canon. (They are in a strange place too, where two systems now share the same owner.)

If my guess above is correct they run the risk of losing a lot of business as the other offerings are becoming more and more sophisticated. Many people (not all) will only spend so much time obsessed by the idea of a new camera and researching it before they feel they will go insane if they do not make a purchase and pull the 'trigger'.

If Ricoh really have something that will fill a gap, I think they would do us all a favour if they could be more specific.

I get frustrated with marketing hot air and ploys like these to keep me interested.
What makes you think the hint is about Pentax ? The statement was made by a Ricoh UK executive, so it's probably Ricoh who will "fill a gap" - whatever this means.

My guess - it's about the new GXR module which recently made it's way on the roadmap. I wouldn't read too much into that "gap" thing, anyway.

Alex
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The image is more important than the equipment.

http://www.stefancarey.zenfolio.com
 
With the silence we are hearing from Ricoh at present about product development, lets hope its a very good 2012...............

I suspect that while they have a wonderfully stated desire to put Pentax back where it belongs, there is some serious considering going on with regard product development as it is make or break time and profits at stake.

Firstly I think the Q is potentially a great long termer for Pentax. Interesting how they have created a whole new system of glass for it, causing followers to purchase more Pentax gear. It is the sign of small things to come and for me, I would own one in a heartbeat when you listen to real world users and find it a brilliant quick shoot alternative to a high spec camera system. (not a waste of time people think, when it takes up so lttle room in your bag) It is a pointer to PART of where they are going.

Next they will develop the DSLR's, as they are just where its at right now and despite EVILs gaining in share, the DSLRmarket is still growing also. When you have some market share, why not exploit that and grab another percent or two.

Just remember guys that Ricoh will produce whatever is going to be profitable for them, not whats on your wish list because forum-its like us arent necessarily where the high volume sales come from.

FF is a wonderfully romantic idea.......but its going to take a damn good marketing, R&D, BACK UP _ SALES & SERVICE MAJOR OVERHAUL......to pull off.

What we do know is ......that being Pentax its going to be interesting.

But I am getting sick of waiting.
 
Six hours? My K20D batteries charge in about a third of that.
As well as my old K10D battery (wich is the same by the way)

Ok, in real life it's not all that long..... maybe four to five to a complete charge.

But the user manual states 390 min tops to a complete charge and the amount of pics by charge is not proportionaly bigger.
 
They don't even had to make a 100% complete design. Since Sony stopped making their A900 to concentrate on making their new A9x (A77 body with a FF sensor) the only thing they had to do is buy the moldings for the body and/or the machinery to make its huge Penta-Prism OVF, or whatever equipment was necessary to make the A900, and install inside the new Sony 36MP's FF sensor, add Live-View, Pentax lens mount and hot shoe, and sell them as the new Pentax FF cameras. Almost the same thing they did when they bought the rights from Minolta to use their In-Body stabilization system for the Pentax. You can be sure is less money than what they already throw out making the Q.
Sorry, but... who bought the rights from Minolta? Certainly not Pentax; their Shake Reduction is different from Minolta's Anti Shake.

Pentax buying the A900 shell doesn't make much sense, either. Making a new, FF body is not a problem for the capable Pentax engineers.

Alex S
 
Minolta had the patent at that time and they paid Minolta for the rights in order to be able to use it in their cameras.
 
Minolta had the patent at that time and they paid Minolta for the rights in order to be able to use it in their cameras.

Forget to mention... According to "Popular Photography" magazine review of the Pentax K100D on '2006.
 
Minolta had the patent at that time and they paid Minolta for the rights in order to be able to use it in their cameras.

Forget to mention... According to "Popular Photography" magazine review of the Pentax K100D on '2006.
OK, so it's some assumption made by Popular Photography. It's in body stabilisation, Minolta was first of the market, all in body stabilisation are the same so Pentax must have licensed it - wrong !
I doubt Pentax licensed anything from Minolta, because:

a. Pentax SR is a technically different solution, using a freely floating platform moved by electromagnets instead of a rail guided platform moved by piezo elements

b. Pentax has patents on SR (e.g. http://www.scribd.com/doc/27444138/Pentax-Shake-Reduction-Patent-7224893 )

Alex
 
As a Pentax user for quite some time now, here is my take. Pentax already have their Full Frame camera. It is called the Pentax 645D. Pentax will come out with their new generation of cropped sensor cameras with higher pixel counts and lower noise. The FF market is very small compared to the rest, thus no reason for Pentax to go after the 35mm FF market. The 645D is very close in price to the Canon D series FF cameras, with much nicer output. The price of the 645D will drop by up to 25 percent over the next year or so and will remain at around the 5 to 6k euros price range. Pentax will come out with a 24 megapixel camera using the new Sony sensor, with improved noise performance. That is my take at this time.
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I think you're probably closer than anyone else on here, at least that I've read so far.

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Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
Six hours? My K20D batteries charge in about a third of that.
As well as my old K10D battery (wich is the same by the way)

Ok, in real life it's not all that long..... maybe four to five to a complete charge.

But the user manual states 390 min tops to a complete charge and the amount of pics by charge is not proportionaly bigger.
Most of my batteries were transfers from my K10Ds. What I do is pull the battery when the charger shows green. It then goes in the camera, if needed, or into my bag as a back-up, usually the latter. Charging time is on the order of two hours, and I get from 350 to 450 shots per charge, depending on how much file review I do.

Admittedly, when I'm not shooting a lot, a battery could easily stay on a charger for six or even eight hours--come to think of it, the one currently on there was put on last night about six p.m., so it should be ready.

With multiple batteries, I use two chargers.

I'd love to see something like the new charger Ryobi sent me the other day: it holds, charges and conditions six at a time, any of their 18 volt and lower batteries (AFAIK, they don't make a larger capacity battery). I've not seen that for any kind of proprietary camera battery, though, of course, the multiple bay chargers are available for AA cells.

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Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
The next logic step for Pentax is a three DSLR line-up.

After that, replacing the SDM lenses with more reliable, higher quality versions.

After that, a larger range of DA limited lenses and DAL primes.

Add in some advertising, and the above plan would vastly increase Pentax's market share & profits. FF wouldn't do either of those things, because very few people would buy it.
+1. But Pentax needs to get their ads out of the few photo content mags they use and into the mainstream. They need that badly and have for years.

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Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 

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