GXR S10 24-72 combo Question

Hi to all I am studding a long time now the Ricoh's cameras and I think I am very close to decide about the GXR matched with the S10 (24-72) unit, plus the DW6 0.79X conversion lens, to setup this way a 19mm equivalent.

The reason is that I have a semipro involvement in interiors architectural photography.

Last summer I did some Hotels with an 24mm equiv, and finally I decided that a wider approach at least for some shots is a must have.

So I have some questions that I would be thankful if some of you have useful infos. Firstly I see that the sensor of the S10 unit is different than the one of the GX200 it is 10 mpxls and not 12 so is there any info that this 10 mpxls sensor is of the same generation like the Canon's G12, Nikon's P7000-7100, (is it a newer sony sensor).

I would be very thankful if someone has already a GXR setup like this and can post some samples or give some links, I have study Flickr but just few of them are surely from this combo and even fewer are from interiors.

Thanks in advance
mike.

--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

I believe from memory that the S10 is actually the GX200 lens on the better GRD III/IV sensor. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I also believe the P7100 sensor is the same one because Sony has yet to release a new version as far as I'm aware, hence why it's also in the newest GRD IV as well. Nikon does manage to squeeze 720p video out of theirs though because they use H.264 compression instead of Ricoh's buffer-hog motion jpeg format which physically stimies both S10 or GRD video at a maximinum 640x480 resolution.

I use my S10 mainly for personal stuff like pets and macro aquarium shots so no architecture to show you sorry. This dead bee in my DPR gallery though is S10 shot handheld:

anthony mazzeri said:

I believe from memory that the S10 is actually the GX200 lens on the better GRD III/IV sensor. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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I think the lens design is similar but not the same. The GX200 was also 24-72 but had a smaller sensor than the GRD III, which means that the lens would have been different to accommodate the difference in size.
--
Archiver - Loving Every Image Captured Always
http://www.flickr.com/photos/archiver/

Hi Mike,

About the CCD sensor in the S10 module: it's a relatively old 1/1.7" CCD sensor manufactured by Sony. I say "relatively old" because even though it's more than 3 years old, Sony hasn't bothered designing a new CMOS BSI sensor in that same size, as the market is too small to justify the R&D investment.

As such, the sensor doesn't perform very well in low light (again, relatively speaking), and noise levels would become bothersome above 800 ISO.
In my opinion, this makes the S10 module less than ideal for interiors shots.

About the S10 + wide-angle converter combo, Gerd Waloszek has an extensive website about the GXR and he has used this combo, see http://www.waloszek.de/gxr_e.php
I believe you could contact him for more details if you need.
--
Andrew
Novice photographer

Pangloss said:

Hi Mike,

About the CCD sensor in the S10 module: it's a relatively old 1/1.7" CCD sensor manufactured by Sony. I say "relatively old" because even though it's more than 3 years old, Sony hasn't bothered designing a new CMOS BSI sensor in that same size, as the market is too small to justify the R&D investment.

As such, the sensor doesn't perform very well in low light (again, relatively speaking), and noise levels would become bothersome above 800 ISO.
In my opinion, this makes the S10 module less than ideal for interiors shots.

About the S10 + wide-angle converter combo, Gerd Waloszek has an extensive website about the GXR and he has used this combo, see http://www.waloszek.de/gxr_e.php
I believe you could contact him for more details if you need.
--
Andrew
Novice photographer

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Thank you Andrew for your nice info... it doesn't matter that the sensor of the S10 is a CCD coz no serious BSI around.... but if it is of the same generation as the Canon G12, Canon S90-95 and Nikon P7000, 7100 then the thing is fine grade... and if shoot RAW then is really OK up to ISO 800.

Speaking for interiors a small sensor like this is a must have for me, coz strobes can help a lot... or without strobes there is the time for a nice tripod... the big plus of a small sensor is the depth of field...

--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Mike,

Here are some interior photos taken today with the S10 at ISO100 on a tripod and with remote control. Because of the dull weather the photos are very dark and even at ISO100 somewhat grainy in the dark areas. I took some more hand-held shots at ISO 400, and they are much more grainy -- I do not include them here.

Pictures are taken at f8.1 (one with f6.5) and 24mm equiv. For each of them, there is also a DW-6 version with 19mm equiv. Directly against the light, there are some reflections in one photo with the DW-6. You will also find some barrel distortion.

Hope, this helps a little...

Best regards,
Gerd

PS: Pangloss pointed you already to my Web pages, where can also see macros, ISO comparisons, some sharpness comparisons, converter experiments and the range when converters are used.

There are two versions of each photo -- where the section is larger, the DW-6 wide-angle converter is used

Hi Gerd... thanks for your kind response... I was planing later today to mail you.. So I see a nice little barrel distortion something very normal for such a wide angle in such a small room... nothing bad here... and nothing that cant be improved in pp.

How about the WB I know RICOH is working in the matrix WB, a serious problem in such shots like interiors is the complicated WB and the color casting from the different materials, surfaces and their reflections... what is your personal experience on this...

Does this unit incorporates this matrix WB... that RICOH introduced if I remember well with the CX4...???

I would be extremely happy to see some more of this kind of shots especially if you could somehow give me the access in a RAW file...

I think you stop down a lot... for this kind of sensor my personal experience is that you can take sharp edge to edge and all the way to the end of dof... with f:5 even f:4.... why you stop so down to 8...

Anyway I am still studding at your site... and thanks again for all these infos.

mike.

you can have a look at my interior shots at spiridakis.gr, then find the envelop V.I.P and give for the code the word mike

--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

The S10 is a very nice unit, I took some nice photos with it. I sold it as I wanted the new APS-C unit and did not want to wait for the value on this to drop anymore as I bought it early.....I think for indoor shots you may be disappointed if high ISO is needed.

Joel Stern said:

The S10 is a very nice unit, I took some nice photos with it. I sold it as I wanted the new APS-C unit and did not want to wait for the value on this to drop anymore as I bought it early.....I think for indoor shots you may be disappointed if high ISO is needed.

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Thanks Joel, I always pay attention in what you are writing, so when you say High ISO... you are speaking for more than ISO 800...??
--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Spiridakis Michael said:

Joel Stern said:

The S10 is a very nice unit, I took some nice photos with it. I sold it as I wanted the new APS-C unit and did not want to wait for the value on this to drop anymore as I bought it early.....I think for indoor shots you may be disappointed if high ISO is needed.

Click to expand...

Thanks Joel, I always pay attention in what you are writing, so when you say High ISO... you are speaking for more than ISO 800...??
--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely. I really never planned this unit for high ISO so I never paid much attention to it, but I can tell you that low light was never satisfying. I wish I could remember some of the settings but I primarily used it outdoors. I know I will sacrifice size with the new APSc unit but it is worth it for me over the S10. I plan on using the new unit as my travel camera once it is available.

All of Gerd's shots at ISO 100 look great, it is when you start to creep up that it could be a problem. If you have the lighting there will be no problem and if you need the 19mm FL I believe you said I am not sure when or if that will be available with the APS-C. The S10 is a bargain right now.

Joel Stern said:

Spiridakis Michael said:

Joel Stern said:

The S10 is a very nice unit, I took some nice photos with it. I sold it as I wanted the new APS-C unit and did not want to wait for the value on this to drop anymore as I bought it early.....I think for indoor shots you may be disappointed if high ISO is needed.

Click to expand...

Thanks Joel, I always pay attention in what you are writing, so when you say High ISO... you are speaking for more than ISO 800...??
--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely. I really never planned this unit for high ISO so I never paid much attention to it, but I can tell you that low light was never satisfying. I wish I could remember some of the settings but I primarily used it outdoors. I know I will sacrifice size with the new APSc unit but it is worth it for me over the S10. I plan on using the new unit as my travel camera once it is available.

All of Gerd's shots at ISO 100 look great, it is when you start to creep up that it could be a problem. If you have the lighting there will be no problem and if you need the 19mm FL I believe you said I am not sure when or if that will be available with the APS-C. The S10 is a bargain right now.

Click to expand...

Totally agree the S10 is a great option and a real bargain this moment... an 24mm equiv, adding the DW6 goes down to 19mm and the GXR body all in no more than 700+ euro.

For this kind of job that I want this setup I really don't need something higher to ISO 100 because I can support it on location with strobes or a tripod if I need physical light... I am most interesting in lens distortions and WB accuracy, speaking for the WB really is a key in this kind of shots...

I would be very happy with a tilt able screen also but at least the GXR offers a really good resolution...

--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Ricoh indeed has matrix multi point auto white balance but that is a selectable setting. So nothing to worry about. The Ricoh small sensors typically have a whitebalance on the cool side. But I assume you will be using some kind of white balance/color correction (grey card, color checker passport whatever).

I don't have the S10 but my experience with both GX100 and P10 is that you should remain below ISO400 and limit the exposure duration to a couple of seconds max. Given the small sensor size you can open up the aperture to help you there. And don't expect miracles in the dark parts of your pictures. RAW helps but not too much for there types of sensors (here white balance is the main advantage of RAW).

Remko

Spiridakis Michael said:

Joel Stern said:

Spiridakis Michael said:

Joel Stern said:

The S10 is a very nice unit, I took some nice photos with it. I sold it as I wanted the new APS-C unit and did not want to wait for the value on this to drop anymore as I bought it early.....I think for indoor shots you may be disappointed if high ISO is needed.

Click to expand...

Thanks Joel, I always pay attention in what you are writing, so when you say High ISO... you are speaking for more than ISO 800...??
--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely. I really never planned this unit for high ISO so I never paid much attention to it, but I can tell you that low light was never satisfying. I wish I could remember some of the settings but I primarily used it outdoors. I know I will sacrifice size with the new APSc unit but it is worth it for me over the S10. I plan on using the new unit as my travel camera once it is available.

All of Gerd's shots at ISO 100 look great, it is when you start to creep up that it could be a problem. If you have the lighting there will be no problem and if you need the 19mm FL I believe you said I am not sure when or if that will be available with the APS-C. The S10 is a bargain right now.

Click to expand...

Totally agree the S10 is a great option and a real bargain this moment... an 24mm equiv, adding the DW6 goes down to 19mm and the GXR body all in no more than 700+ euro.

For this kind of job that I want this setup I really don't need something higher to ISO 100 because I can support it on location with strobes or a tripod if I need physical light... I am most interesting in lens distortions and WB accuracy, speaking for the WB really is a key in this kind of shots...

I would be very happy with a tilt able screen also but at least the GXR offers a really good resolution...

--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Click to expand...

Sounds like it will work out fine for you under those conditions, and it is small...that is the one thing I will miss about it...

Joel Stern said:

Spiridakis Michael said:

Joel Stern said:

Spiridakis Michael said:

Joel Stern said:

The S10 is a very nice unit, I took some nice photos with it. I sold it as I wanted the new APS-C unit and did not want to wait for the value on this to drop anymore as I bought it early.....I think for indoor shots you may be disappointed if high ISO is needed.

Click to expand...

Thanks Joel, I always pay attention in what you are writing, so when you say High ISO... you are speaking for more than ISO 800...??
--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely. I really never planned this unit for high ISO so I never paid much attention to it, but I can tell you that low light was never satisfying. I wish I could remember some of the settings but I primarily used it outdoors. I know I will sacrifice size with the new APSc unit but it is worth it for me over the S10. I plan on using the new unit as my travel camera once it is available.

All of Gerd's shots at ISO 100 look great, it is when you start to creep up that it could be a problem. If you have the lighting there will be no problem and if you need the 19mm FL I believe you said I am not sure when or if that will be available with the APS-C. The S10 is a bargain right now.

Click to expand...

Totally agree the S10 is a great option and a real bargain this moment... an 24mm equiv, adding the DW6 goes down to 19mm and the GXR body all in no more than 700+ euro.

For this kind of job that I want this setup I really don't need something higher to ISO 100 because I can support it on location with strobes or a tripod if I need physical light... I am most interesting in lens distortions and WB accuracy, speaking for the WB really is a key in this kind of shots...

I would be very happy with a tilt able screen also but at least the GXR offers a really good resolution...

--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Click to expand...

Sounds like it will work out fine for you under those conditions, and it is small...that is the one thing I will miss about it...

Click to expand...

Joel... I think that this unit sports the same sensor as the GR... isnt it..?? must be the same as Canon G12.. and the rest....??? Am I wrong....???

--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Spiridakis Michael said:

Joel Stern said:

Spiridakis Michael said:

Joel Stern said:

Spiridakis Michael said:

Joel Stern said:

The S10 is a very nice unit, I took some nice photos with it. I sold it as I wanted the new APS-C unit and did not want to wait for the value on this to drop anymore as I bought it early.....I think for indoor shots you may be disappointed if high ISO is needed.

Click to expand...

Thanks Joel, I always pay attention in what you are writing, so when you say High ISO... you are speaking for more than ISO 800...??
--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely. I really never planned this unit for high ISO so I never paid much attention to it, but I can tell you that low light was never satisfying. I wish I could remember some of the settings but I primarily used it outdoors. I know I will sacrifice size with the new APSc unit but it is worth it for me over the S10. I plan on using the new unit as my travel camera once it is available.

All of Gerd's shots at ISO 100 look great, it is when you start to creep up that it could be a problem. If you have the lighting there will be no problem and if you need the 19mm FL I believe you said I am not sure when or if that will be available with the APS-C. The S10 is a bargain right now.

Click to expand...

Totally agree the S10 is a great option and a real bargain this moment... an 24mm equiv, adding the DW6 goes down to 19mm and the GXR body all in no more than 700+ euro.

For this kind of job that I want this setup I really don't need something higher to ISO 100 because I can support it on location with strobes or a tripod if I need physical light... I am most interesting in lens distortions and WB accuracy, speaking for the WB really is a key in this kind of shots...

I would be very happy with a tilt able screen also but at least the GXR offers a really good resolution...

--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Click to expand...

Sounds like it will work out fine for you under those conditions, and it is small...that is the one thing I will miss about it...

Click to expand...

Joel... I think that this unit sports the same sensor as the GR... isnt it..?? must be the same as Canon G12.. and the rest....??? Am I wrong....???

--
http://www.spiridakis.gr

Click to expand...

Same jpeg engine as the GRdlll but not exactly the same sensor, it is similar to the GX sensor but a comparison was done with this and the GRDlll you can do a search, I think Prognasis did it with some images I supplied to him, they are very close in many ways but not the same. I always found the GRDlll to be a bit cleaner.

Hi Mike,
Here are some answers to your questions.
Best regards, Gerd

Dr. Noodle said:

I think you stop down a lot... for this kind of sensor my personal experience is that you can take sharp edge to edge and all the way to the end of dof... with f:5 even f:4.... why you stop so down to 8...

Click to expand...

Because I misunderstood this quote from you: "Speaking for interiors a small sensor like this is a must have for me, coz strobes can help a lot... or without strobes there is the time for a nice tripod... the big plus of a small sensor is the depth of field…"

I thought that you wanted some samples that were stopped down. Usually, I use the P-mode and it prefers to use the lens wide open (2.5…5.6).

Dr. Noodle said:

Dr. Noodle said:

Does this unit incorporates this matrix WB... that RICOH introduced if I remember well with the CX4...???

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

As Remko already said, it does. I use it like/instead of auto-white balance and never really care for it. I am also a JPEG shooter because I do not have the time to process my far too many photos..

Dr. Noodle said:

I would be extremely happy to see some more of this kind of shots especially if you could somehow give me the access in a RAW file...

Click to expand...

I forgot to set the camera to RAW although I had intended to do so -- therefore only JPEGs…. Maybe, I will find the time for a few RAW photos in the next few days. But as these are large, I will have to send them via e-mail (which will take a while because I have only a slow DSL connection)

Dr. Noodle said:

Anyway I am still studding at your site... and thanks again for all these infos.

Click to expand...

Thank you, too. The pity is that I have too little time to keep it really up-to-date.

Dr. Noodle said:

you can have a look at my interior shots at spiridakis.gr, then find the envelop V.I.P and give for the code the word mike

Click to expand...

Thank you, I will take a look at it.

Dr. Noodle said:

Remko wrote:

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The Ricoh small sensors typically have a whitebalance on the cool side.

This is true for the R series and the P10. But I find that the S10 is more on the pink side (but not as much as the A12-50 and A12-28).