Perspective control : shift and tilt lenses for mft

Hi,

One of the things I'm missing on mft bodies is the 24mm TSE lens I have for the 5d.

I'd love to find an alternative for mft bodies.

I had a look at EBay and that is what I found :

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Lenses-/3323/i.html?Compatible%2520Brand=For%2520Olympus%7CFor%2520Panasonic&LH_ItemCondition=1000&rt=nc&Type=Perspective%2520Control&_catref=1&_dmpt=Camera_Lenses&_fln=1&_ssov=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m1539

They are mainly Arsat, Photex or MC branded lenses. I think they are made in Russia or Ukraina. Some are quite expensive (not for a Dslr, but for mft). What are they worth ?

I'm mainly interested in the shorter focal lengths, but there are not many ! The most seen is 50mm; there is also a 35mm which would need the 4/3 adapter.. The shortest one is 20mm which would only make a 40mm equivalent, still long for shooting architecture :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MC-2-8-20mm-TILT-SHIFT-lens-Micro-4-3-Olympus-PEN-and-Panasonic-LUMIX-DSLR-NEW-/130579417619?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item1e6723ca13#ht_3431wt_922

Anyone knows of shorter PC or TSE lenses ? ( I do already have an M mount adapter).

Anyone ever used this one ? Or a lens of the same brand ? Are they soft in the corners ? Are they worth the investment ? The problem with actual wa lenses on mft or Nex cameras, is that they are relatively soft in the corners and if you add persective correction in post processing, then things are getting even worse. But on the other end, if those Third party lenses are as soft in the corners as the reguar mft lenses after post processing, then they are not so useful.

Note that I'm more interested by the shift than by the tilt. I'm not trying to play with out of focus areas, but want to control perspective.

Damn, if my EOS outfit wasn't so heavy, I'd rather use it..

--
rrr_hhh

Maybe something like this could be your solution:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/KIPON-Shift-Adapter-f-Nikon-F-Objektiv-m4-3-/150675071954?pt=DE_Foto_Camcorder_Objetivanschl%C3%BCsse_Adapter&hash=item2314ef23d2

rrr_hhh said:

Hi,

One of the things I'm missing on mft bodies is the 24mm TSE lens I have for the 5d.

I'd love to find an alternative for mft bodies.

I had a look at EBay and that is what I found :

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Lenses-/3323/i.html?Compatible%2520Brand=For%2520Olympus%7CFor%2520Panasonic&LH_ItemCondition=1000&rt=nc&Type=Perspective%2520Control&_catref=1&_dmpt=Camera_Lenses&_fln=1&_ssov=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m1539

They are mainly Arsat, Photex or MC branded lenses. I think they are made in Russia or Ukraina. Some are quite expensive (not for a Dslr, but for mft). What are they worth ?

I'm mainly interested in the shorter focal lengths, but there are not many ! The most seen is 50mm; there is also a 35mm which would need the 4/3 adapter.. The shortest one is 20mm which would only make a 40mm equivalent, still long for shooting architecture :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MC-2-8-20mm-TILT-SHIFT-lens-Micro-4-3-Olympus-PEN-and-Panasonic-LUMIX-DSLR-NEW-/130579417619?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item1e6723ca13#ht_3431wt_922

Anyone knows of shorter PC or TSE lenses ? ( I do already have an M mount adapter).

Anyone ever used this one ? Or a lens of the same brand ? Are they soft in the corners ? Are they worth the investment ? The problem with actual wa lenses on mft or Nex cameras, is that they are relatively soft in the corners and if you add persective correction in post processing, then things are getting even worse. But on the other end, if those Third party lenses are as soft in the corners as the reguar mft lenses after post processing, then they are not so useful.

Note that I'm more interested by the shift than by the tilt. I'm not trying to play with out of focus areas, but want to control perspective.

Click to expand...

I am sorry that I cannot help you with any instant answers, but I think you raise an important point that Panasonic and Olympus should be addressing. We all know that they launched the m43 format aiming clearly at point and shoot users who were seeking a less intimidating upgrade path than a quick jump to a dSLR. It was only after the event that they discovered that there was another set of potential customers - existing dSLR users who sought a smaller and/or lighter alternative. These customers clearly have a need to see the system aspect of m43 photography expanded sooner rather than later. Yet even those P&S upgraders will also need a broader range of lenses before too long - some of them will be quick learners. Like you I have an interest in architectural photography and would love to see a wide angle tilt and shift native m43 lens as well as things such as extension tubes with camera to lens bidirectional communication for close up photography.

If Olympus and Panasonic are indeed serious about competing in the realm of system camera photography with the likes of Canon and Nikon, they are going to have to address these issues.

Perhaps you should look at the 4/3 9-18 (note not the micro version) which appears to have very good corner performance. Apparently even better than the 11-22 which I have.

grapher said:

Maybe something like this could be your solution:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/KIPON-Shift-Adapter-f-Nikon-F-Objektiv-m4-3-/150675071954?pt=DE_Foto_Camcorder_Objetivanschl%C3%BCsse_Adapter&hash=item2314ef23d2

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, yes, that is interesting. The problem is to find a legacy lens which is wide enough and light enough.

There is an interesting Nikon AI lens which is a 20mm f3.5 and among the lightest ever made, but on mft it would still only be a 40mm equivalent. Nikon made wider lenses, including a 12mm, but from what I've seen it is big and heavy (so no real advantage over my Canon gear). Further, I don't know Nikon lenses; right now, I'm looking at Ken Rockwell's website in order to learn what they have on the short end.

Things seem to be somewhat easier for Nex cameras, since the crop factor is only 1.5 instead of 2. However legacy wide angle lenses tend to become magenta in the corners.. A pretty bad shift from what I've read in different places. It occurs when the rear nodal point of the lens is too near of the sensor and plagues many wide angle legacy lenses, even on the Leica M9 !

So in definitive, tilt-shift lenses may be like action photography : better left for DSLRs
Too bad !

lens which
--
rrr_hhh

BigBarney said:

I am sorry that I cannot help you with any instant answers, but I think you raise an important point that Panasonic and Olympus should be addressing. We all know that they launched the m43 format aiming clearly at point and shoot users who were seeking a less intimidating upgrade path than a quick jump to a dSLR. It was only after the event that they discovered that there was another set of potential customers - existing dSLR users who sought a smaller and/or lighter alternative. These customers clearly have a need to see the system aspect of m43 photography expanded sooner rather than later. Yet even those P&S upgraders will also need a broader range of lenses before too long - some of them will be quick learners. Like you I have an interest in architectural photography and would love to see a wide angle tilt and shift native m43 lens as well as things such as extension tubes with camera to lens bidirectional communication for close up photography.

If Olympus and Panasonic are indeed serious about competing in the realm of system camera photography with the likes of Canon and Nikon, they are going to have to address these issues.

Click to expand...

I don't put too much hope on that; I guess that architecture photography and shift lenses are like action photography : better left to DSLRs ! Too bad for the growing crowd of retired people whith aching backs and worn out arm joints.
--
rrr_hhh

Mark Thornton said:

Perhaps you should look at the 4/3 9-18 (note not the micro version) which appears to have very good corner performance. Apparently even better than the 11-22 which I have.

Click to expand...

Well, but I'm not going to add any new DSLR lenses to my mft cameras : I do already have one, including the TSE lenses. So it doesn't really make sense for me. Perhaps for someone else who doesn't already have a DSLR.
--
rrr_hhh

Samyang makes a 2,8/14mm lens which weighs 550g. That would be 28mm on mft. Or 21mm on a NEX.
--
Stupid is as stupid does - Forrest Gump

I think the market segment is too small to warrant such a product in the M4/3 arena. I have the 17TSE, but on my GH2 it is too heavy and bulky (I must confess, I haven't tried it). I think you're better off with an UWA like the 7-14 and use PS for perspective control. (The shift ring cited earlier might be worth the investment) The image will degrade slightly, but not that much, unless you're planning to print big -- in which case, I'd say, go back to your Canon gear.
--
Sadja
http://www.sadja.smugmug.com
http://www.pbase.com/sadja

rrr_hhh said:

grapher said:

Maybe something like this could be your solution:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/KIPON-Shift-Adapter-f-Nikon-F-Objektiv-m4-3-/150675071954?pt=DE_Foto_Camcorder_Objetivanschl%C3%BCsse_Adapter&hash=item2314ef23d2

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, yes, that is interesting. The problem is to find a legacy lens which is wide enough and light enough.

Click to expand...

I use a Kipon Nikon -> µ4/3 tilt adapter along with a Nikon 20mm f/2.8. It works pretty well.

For shift though, good luck. FF legacy lenses won't be wide enough for the most part, and so you'll probably need an APS-C ultrawide. Pretty expensive and big for this purpose.

I can't help but feel that you could just get the Panasonic 7-14mm f/4 and crop. I don't know how big you're printing but I can't imagine that whatever "corner softness" that lens may possess is going to be a big issue in practice. Even the inferior Olympus 9-18mm performs OK.

Jeremy_T said:

Jeremy_T said:

Thanks for the link, yes, that is interesting. The problem is to find a legacy lens which is wide enough and light enough.

Click to expand...

I use a Kipon Nikon -> µ4/3 tilt adapter along with a Nikon 20mm f/2.8. It works pretty well.

Click to expand...

As of now, I have seen only one shift adapter for mft : with Nikon F Lens mount. Meanwhile there are shift adapters for many different lens mount for the Nex.

Jeremy_T said:

For shift though, good luck. FF legacy lenses won't be wide enough for the most part, and so you'll probably need an APS-C ultrawide. Pretty expensive and big for this purpose.

Click to expand...

I am not sure that the APSC lenses will have enough coverage for mft sensor to allow enough shift. The APSC sensor is only 1.9 mm larger in the short dimension and 5 mm in the large dimension. The Kipon shift mount allows 11mm of shift. But I don't know if you can use all of it : going to far apart may degrade the image too much. I wonder how this adapter would work ..

Jeremy_T said:

I can't help but feel that you could just get the Panasonic 7-14mm f/4 and crop. I don't know how big you're printing but I can't imagine that whatever "corner softness" that lens may possess is going to be a big issue in practice. Even the inferior Olympus 9-18mm performs OK.

Click to expand...

I already own both the 7-14mm and the 12mm. I find that perspective correction is often difficult with LR and it degrades the corners even more; but more than that I'd like to be able to compose in the field, rather than in post-processing.

By the way, thanks for your suggestions.
--
rrr_hhh

Sadja Herzog said:

I think the market segment is too small to warrant such a product in the M4/3 arena. I have the 17TSE, but on my GH2 it is too heavy and bulky (I must confess, I haven't tried it). I think you're better off with an UWA like the 7-14 and use PS for perspective control. (The shift ring cited earlier might be worth the investment) The image will degrade slightly, but not that much, unless you're planning to print big -- in which case, I'd say, go back to your Canon gear.

Click to expand...

I think that I'll have more luck with the Nex bodies. The shift adapter for Nex cameras exists in different mounts, including the M lens mounts and Voigtländer has a reputation of lightness. Formethebest so,union is probably using the Canon 5d with the 24TSE.

But one can always dream of the perfect lens !
--
rrr_hhh

You can get an EOS to m43 adapter and use your existing TSE lens. Canon makes a 17mm TSE, but if that's not the one you already have it's pretty expensive. Canon made an FD TSE lens, but only in 35mm, IIRC.

One option would be the Fotodix T&S adapter with a legacy FF wide angle lens.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=canon+FD+shift+lenses&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=10992085317580666136&sa=X&ei=Iy3UTvOuL-TX0QHji737AQ&ved=0CFkQ8wIwBA

Nice shots in your gallery...is that the city where you live, the one with the castles?

Very impressive a couple of those are.....

My pleasure looking,

Bill

--
Bill Wallace

http://bwallace.zenfolio.com/

"I'd rather laugh with the Sinners than cry with the Saints"

Bob Meyer said:

You can get an EOS to m43 adapter and use your existing TSE lens. Canon makes a 17mm TSE, but if that's not the one you already have it's pretty expensive. Canon made an FD TSE lens, but only in 35mm, IIRC.

One option would be the Fotodix T&S adapter with a legacy FF wide angle lens.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=canon+FD+shift+lenses&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=10992085317580666136&sa=X&ei=Iy3UTvOuL-TX0QHji737AQ&ved=0CFkQ8wIwBA

Click to expand...

Frankly, I prefer to shoot my canon glass on the 5d, it doesn't make much sense to adapt it on an mft body. Those lenses are huge and dfeat the purpose of mft. I have the 24mm and anyway, on mft the 17mm would only be a 34mm.

After all this talk (and after some external research, I think that :
1) perspective correction is like action photography, better done in DSLR

2) the Nex cameras having a better sensor may be better suited for that than MFT : the Kipon shift adapter comes in more different mounts allowing more choice of brand, including small Voigtländer lenses. The problem with them being that they get strong color shift when the rear nodal point is too near of the sensor. I have to research what that makes if you convert to B&W.

--
rrr_hhh

I have the Nikon 20mm 3.5 with a fotodiox shift adapter and the lensbaby tilt.

I use to shift to stich togther a wider shot, almost 28mm equal. works very well.
use with EP3

Also have the Canon T/S 35mm with a adapter FD this this is sharp. very good combo

rrr_hhh said:

I don't put too much hope on that; I guess that architecture photography and shift lenses are like action photography : better left to DSLRs ! Too bad for the growing crowd of retired people whith aching backs and worn out arm joints.

Click to expand...

Inevitably Panasonic and Olympus have focussed their product development on their young and local markets, ignoring the fact that here in Europe (and probably North America too) it is often the older photographers who have a greater disposable income. Speaking as a retired person with a strong back, strong right arm, but useless left arm as the result of an accident, I adopted m43 with great relish because I could use the cameras one-handed with good results. I too would like to see a wide angle tilt and shift lens in a native m43 format, but I guess the product planners in Olympus and Panasonic just cannot see us. :-(

rrr_hhh said:

I already own both the 7-14mm and the 12mm. I find that perspective correction is often difficult with LR and it degrades the corners even more; but more than that I'd like to be able to compose in the field, rather than in post-processing.

Click to expand...

Instead of trying to do this in post processing, you will likely get better results if you just frame the image to avoid converging lines, and then crop to get the framing you want later.

So, say, if you just need to correct for converging lines (in, e.g., a building) you can aim at a point in the building that's perpendicular to the sensor plane (normally, the ground floor) and hold the camera vertically. If you crop fully half of the scene you're left with a 3:2 image with half the original resolution and an additional 2x crop factor. You probably won't want to crop fully half of the scene - you'll usually need at least a little bit of the ground to give context - so this is a worst case scenario.

So the 7-14mm could achieve the same scene as a 14mm (28mm equivalent) shift lens, at the cost of halving the resolution.

I'm sure there are times a shift lens would be useful, but in the digital era big crops are a lot more practical most of the time. Unless you're printing super huge, 8 megapixel crops are going to be pretty darn good. Even 6 megapixel crops from the old sensor are going to be pretty solid too.

Sometimes you just can't get to a position which allows capturing the building without tilting the camera. Large buildings and/or narrow streets. Of course some of these situations will defeat even shift lenses.

Type to fast need to correct my previous post. Nikon combo,s. 20mm with fotodoix shift adapter. And a 28 f3.5 Nikon shift lens with lens baby tilt adapter. Sorry for pervious post.