Poor Image Quality in Snow

It actually looks like an exposure problem to me, and I think your filter might not be helping with those high contrast edges.

I would drop your exposure a half a stop, shoot RAW and find your dynamic range in post-processing. I would also lose the filter in bright light conditions like this.

Zee Char said:

You can even go higher than that with these new sensors. 800 or 1600 if needed to keep that shutter speed up. I have shot 12,800 at low light sporting events with my 7D. No reason the 60D can't match that performance.

Click to expand...

Here's the answer.....and a bit of emphasis

...100.ISO is not recommended for any subject motion since you'll be shooting at either too slow a shutter speed to actually stop the action or you'll be shooting at wide open apertures that are 1. softer than stopped down apertures, and 2. have so little depth of field that you would likely be OFF focus when shooting subjects in motion....

You don't need to up the ISO to 800 or 1600 for outdoor shots though...

@ ISO 400 you'd have taken that 1st shot @ 1/320 sec @ F8, and have gotten more frozen action in focus....Indoors ISO 1600 with your lens will be useful since the widest aperture is quite "slow" (small)...

Good luck and good shooting.....

My own rule of thumb is 3 X the fl under one .

That would mean the slowest I would shoot a 100 mm lens would be 1/300 - the closest is 1/250 depending on camera .

In snow , I use a CPL [ B+W ] - It give me a variable ND up to stops . [ same for desert , lakes - bright / high reflection areas -
I also start at ISO 400 - but may drop to 200 .
--
1st it's a hobby
7D gripped XTI gripped
Canon - efs 10-22 , 17-55 , ef 18-55 IS
EF 28-90 , 28 @ 2.8 , 50 @1.8 , 28-135 IS
L's 35-350 , 70-200 MK II IS
Quantaray lens 70-300 macro
Sigma 135 - 400 , 180 MACRO
2X III , Life Size converter
KSM filters for all
kenko auto tubes , EF 25

Kitacanon said:

Zee Char said:

You can even go higher than that with these new sensors. 800 or 1600 if needed to keep that shutter speed up. I have shot 12,800 at low light sporting events with my 7D. No reason the 60D can't match that performance.

Click to expand...

Here's the answer.....and a bit of emphasis

...100.ISO is not recommended for any subject motion since you'll be shooting at either too slow a shutter speed to actually stop the action or you'll be shooting at wide open apertures that are 1. softer than stopped down apertures, and 2. have so little depth of field that you would likely be OFF focus when shooting subjects in motion....

You don't need to up the ISO to 800 or 1600 for outdoor shots though...

@ ISO 400 you'd have taken that 1st shot @ 1/320 sec @ F8, and have gotten more frozen action in focus....Indoors ISO 1600 with your lens will be useful since the widest aperture is quite "slow" (small)...

Good luck and good shooting.....

Click to expand...

Yeah you may not need but I was trying to say don't be afraid to use higher ISO. When I was shooting that football game at 12,800 I was maxed out and even at 1/500 I was getting hand and foot motion blur. I would have gratefully taken 1/1000 or more. If you shoot with a 400 5.6 on an overcast day and you stop it down one or 2 from maximum aperture to get it's best IQ you may need it. I'll take a shot with a little noise over blur anyway day.

Good point about the indoor shots. I'll use 3200 on my 5D2 and 1600 on my 7D without a second thought and push one more stop if needed on both.

I think there may be several things at play here

1: The shutter speed may be too low

The 1/lens mm rule of thumb was designed for having a decent keeper rate for a full frame camera taking 6x4" pictures. If you transfer this to reasonable pixel sharpness for your 18Mp camera when viewed at 100% on 24" screen @ 1920 width- you will need more than 2.5 screens to fit the width, or more than 50" which is more than eight times the 6". This means to get a "perfect" picture you will need approximately 1/(lens mm*1,6*8) = 1/(60*1,6*8) = 1/768s or between 1/640 and 1/800s to get reasonable pixel sharpness. Given a fully functional IS (to achieve this you need to wait at least 1s with steady hands-) you can cut down almost 3 stops if you are lucky, landing at 1/100s as a rule of thumb at 60mm using IS. (Note that this goes for camera motion, if you look at subject motion the same rule of thumb would indicate 1/640 to 1/800..).

2: Looking closely at the hairs of your dog on your first picture, studying the pixels, it does seem that you have a double picture about 4-5 pixels away. (about 1-2mm for the dog) This could be caused by-

A: reflections between the UV filter and the lens. (Try without the filter)

B: Motion of the camera sensor or lens (it corresponds to moving the image on the sensor 22,3mm*4/5300 = 0,017mm in less than 1/60 second).

C: Motion of the dog/ or its hairs.
On this image i would guess it is A, not B or C.

3: Using phase detection is difficult on a target with little or no contrast. If your subject is stationary, you should choose one-shot mode, to get a confirmed focus before firing.

So in my conclusion

On a 6x4 image, your first image is acceptable. Exposure is fine. To improve, id try

1: Skip the UV filter

2: Keep a faster TV than 1/100s at 50mm, 1/160s at 80mm, (preferably twice as fast or more.)

3: Make sure the IS settles (for at least 1s) before pressing the shutter past half way.
4: Get a hood (unless you were already using it).
5: Use one-shot-mode for stationary targets.

Now for your first picture id guess the filter is the problem. For the second ( MG3741), it could be some kind of motion blur, possibly mixed with being slightly out of focus. If the lack of hood is a problem you will probably see it as poor contrast or flare- this will typically be more pronounced outdoors shooting high contrast targets in bright snowy conditions compared to other situations.

Best of luck
-Yngve

Maine60d said:

I just bought a Canon 15-85mm. My first day with the lens, I tried to take some pictures of my dog playing in snow. Granted, a black dog in snow can be difficult to expose properly, but I was very disappointed with the image quality. In the below pictures, the side of his face was the focal point. There really doesn't appear to be any area in the photo that is in good focus. All the snow pictures that day were similarly poor quality. Indoor, the lens seems fine. Am I missing something technique-wise, or could it be that reflected light was wreaking havoc on image quality? I have a nice Hoya UV filter on at all times. The pictures below are from the same image, the one of his mouth is cropped to show what I mean about poor image quality.

Shutter speed was 1/160, aperture 7.1. Servo AF if I remember correctly.

Click to expand...

Excellent post.

I suspected it may be the filter as well, although I was hoping it wasn't I spent good money on a Hoya filter (~$40) hoping it would be essentially invisible to the camera but it may just not be the case. I haven't tried shooting without the filter hoping to rule out other possibilities. The second I took the lens cap off the lens for the first time I slapped the UV filter on so it has never been touched. I will do some tests to see if it is indeed the filter.

Also, I am really not sure why I didn't bump up the ISO. I could have easily gone to 400 at least without and appreciable loss in image quality... rookie mistake I suppose.

I will do some more testing tomorrow without the filter, and raising shutter speed and report back so everyone else can learn from my mistakes. Shooting in snow has turned out to be my greatest photographic challenge thus far.

$40 is not very much for a filter. I would not use a $40 filter. I use B&W filters.

I had this trouble before also shooting wildlife in the winter from my vehicle. I learned that if I did not let the camera and lens acclimate for a minute or two, subjects were not in focus. Also if I was shooting across extreme temperature differences like out the window of a warm vehicle on a cold day, pics would be slightly OOF. The same is true shooting through an open window or door during the winter. Just something to think about when you are shooting during the winter.
--
EOS 7D
EF-S 15-85mm IS USM
EF 70-300mm IS USM
EF 100-400mm L IS USM

Maine60d said:

Excellent post.

I suspected it may be the filter as well, although I was hoping it wasn't I spent good money on a Hoya filter (~$40)

Click to expand...

which Hoya? they make good and bad filters.

Maine60d said:

hoping it would be essentially invisible to the camera but it may just not be the case. I haven't tried shooting without the filter hoping to rule out other possibilities. The second I took the lens cap off the lens for the first time I slapped the UV filter on so it has never been touched. I will do some tests to see if it is indeed the filter.

Also, I am really not sure why I didn't bump up the ISO. I could have easily gone to 400 at least without and appreciable loss in image quality... rookie mistake I suppose.

Click to expand...

You could use auto iso (in the range of say 100-800), in Tv mode at say 1/400

Maine60d said:

I will do some more testing tomorrow without the filter, and raising shutter speed and report back so everyone else can learn from my mistakes. Shooting in snow has turned out to be my greatest photographic challenge thus far.

Click to expand...

--
Life is short, time to zoom in ©

photonius said:

which Hoya? they make good and bad filters.

Click to expand...

Hoya 72mm HMC UV-FILTER - HOUVMC72 from bhphotovideo. Meant to order their Pro1, but got this instead. This one is actually $5 more expensive, not really sure of the difference. They are both multi-coated. I will end up returning this one if it is in fact the filter causing the issue.

If you zoom in to the second shot, you see definite camera shake on the tiny snow flakes.
That means your holding technique needs a faster shutter speed.

Try using Tv, set it to at least 1/500 or even 1/1000. Set iso on auto. The camera will then open aperture enough and/or use higher iso if needed. You may get a bit of noise from higher iso, but that is always better than a blurry shot.
That should get you sharp shots.

If not, shoot the dog, that will avoid any motion blur and make focusing easier.
Sorry, I'll leave now...
;-)

Maine60d said:

I just bought a Canon 15-85mm. My first day with the lens, I tried to take some pictures of my dog playing in snow. Granted, a black dog in snow can be difficult to expose properly, but I was very disappointed with the image quality. In the below pictures, the side of his face was the focal point. There really doesn't appear to be any area in the photo that is in good focus. All the snow pictures that day were similarly poor quality. Indoor, the lens seems fine. Am I missing something technique-wise, or could it be that reflected light was wreaking havoc on image quality? I have a nice Hoya UV filter on at all times. The pictures below are from the same image, the one of his mouth is cropped to show what I mean about poor image quality.

Shutter speed was 1/160, aperture 7.1. Servo AF if I remember correctly.

Click to expand...

If you put on the filter (any) indoors or inside a warm vehicle , and take it outdoors, you will likely have some condensation of water between the filter and the lens causing blurry images and problems for phase detection auto focus. (The filter cools down fast, and there is little or no ventilation that can let out the humidity between the lens and the filter..)

Now you can have quite much fog on the inside of a filter before the auto focus stops working, but images may turn out blurry and with lack of contrast without this being very visible when looking in the viewfinder.

The same will happen when you bring cold glass into a warm and humid environment after shooting in cold conditions, since the glass heats up very slowly and thus water condensates when air is cooled down by the cold glass. The best way of avoiding this is to put the camera in a bag and close it before going in, and then letting the camera heat up slowly (this can take hours) before introducing it to the more humid indoor environment.

Note that the air doesn't have to feel more humid, as it is the absolute (not the relative humidity) that is the problem. Hot air can contain many times as much humidity as cold air. Typically you have more humidity indoors in snowy conditions because it is nearly impossible to avoid some snow from entering when going in and out. When clothes with snow on dries up, the air gets more humid, even though the relative humidity may be extremely low.

-Yngve

prvrt said:

I had this trouble before also shooting wildlife in the winter from my vehicle. I learned that if I did not let the camera and lens acclimate for a minute or two, subjects were not in focus. Also if I was shooting across extreme temperature differences like out the window of a warm vehicle on a cold day, pics would be slightly OOF. The same is true shooting through an open window or door during the winter. Just something to think about when you are shooting during the winter.
--
EOS 7D
EF-S 15-85mm IS USM
EF 70-300mm IS USM
EF 100-400mm L IS USM

Click to expand...

Y Hafting said:

If you put on the filter (any) indoors or inside a warm vehicle , and take it outdoors, you will likely have some condensation of water between the filter and the lens causing blurry images and problems for phase detection auto focus. (The filter cools down fast, and there is little or no ventilation that can let out the humidity between the lens and the filter..)

Now you can have quite much fog on the inside of a filter before the auto focus stops working, but images may turn out blurry and with lack of contrast without this being very visible when looking in the viewfinder.

The same will happen when you bring cold glass into a warm and humid environment after shooting in cold conditions, since the glass heats up very slowly and thus water condensates when air is cooled down by the cold glass. The best way of avoiding this is to put the camera in a bag and close it before going in, and then letting the camera heat up slowly (this can take hours) before introducing it to the more humid indoor environment.

Note that the air doesn't have to feel more humid, as it is the absolute (not the relative humidity) that is the problem. Hot air can contain many times as much humidity as cold air. Typically you have more humidity indoors in snowy conditions because it is nearly impossible to avoid some snow from entering when going in and out. When clothes with snow on dries up, the air gets more humid, even though the relative humidity may be extremely low.

-Yngve

Click to expand...

The camera was actually kept inside my vehicle that day, and the filter stays on the lens. I did not see any visible fog or condensation from the viewfinder. In fact, I didn't even notice that the images were poor quality until after I looked at them in Lightroom.

I am going to test today if it was the filter or low shutter speed. If it is neither, I will be at loss for words although I suspect it will be one of the two.

Maine60d said:

Y Hafting said:

If you put on the filter (any) indoors or inside a warm vehicle , and take it outdoors, you will likely have some condensation of water between the filter and the lens causing blurry images and problems for phase detection auto focus. (The filter cools down fast, and there is little or no ventilation that can let out the humidity between the lens and the filter..)

Now you can have quite much fog on the inside of a filter before the auto focus stops working, but images may turn out blurry and with lack of contrast without this being very visible when looking in the viewfinder.

The same will happen when you bring cold glass into a warm and humid environment after shooting in cold conditions, since the glass heats up very slowly and thus water condensates when air is cooled down by the cold glass. The best way of avoiding this is to put the camera in a bag and close it before going in, and then letting the camera heat up slowly (this can take hours) before introducing it to the more humid indoor environment.

Note that the air doesn't have to feel more humid, as it is the absolute (not the relative humidity) that is the problem. Hot air can contain many times as much humidity as cold air. Typically you have more humidity indoors in snowy conditions because it is nearly impossible to avoid some snow from entering when going in and out. When clothes with snow on dries up, the air gets more humid, even though the relative humidity may be extremely low.

-Yngve

Click to expand...

The camera was actually kept inside my vehicle that day, and the filter stays on the lens. I did not see any visible fog or condensation from the viewfinder. In fact, I didn't even notice that the images were poor quality until after I looked at them in Lightroom.

I am going to test today if it was the filter or low shutter speed. If it is neither, I will be at loss for words although I suspect it will be one of the two.

Click to expand...

The Hoya HMC should be a fine filter, it came on top of the lenstip test:

http://www.lenstip.com/113.4-article-UV_filters_test_Description_of_the_results_and_summary.html

As to condensation. Yes, you always should be careful about condensation, whether with or without filter. Anyway that is cold, when moved into warmer surroundings with some humidity in the air, will develop condensation. But it will not give the effect you have. It will cause loss of contrast, mist-like images, like soft filters used in movies.

As correctly pointed out, in the second shot at the beginning, the snow flakes are duplicated. This is camera motion, either the IS has not settled, or you were moving.

Regarding IS. It is NOT perfect. The element moves around a little to compensate for your hand movement. However, the IS element has only a limited space to move around, if the total shake distance becomes too large, it has to recenter and start stabilizing in the new location.
You should try to get a feeling for IS to make sure you handle it right.

Set your lens at 85mm, perhaps that's not high enough magnification to see the effect well (if you have a 55-250 IS, you can see it quite well how it works).
In any case, you could then use live-view at 5 x or 10 x to really see how

the IS kicks in, how it then smoothes shaking, and how it occasionally jumps to readjust. As far as I can see, the IS has no control over shutter release, so if you shoot at the wrong moment, it could be moving.
It is perhaps a good idea to check out IS, just to make sure it actually works.

--
Life is short, time to zoom in ©

I agree with the comments that it is a shutter speed problem. Even if your dog appears to be stationary, 1/60 is not enough to freeze action on a living breathing subject. Try photographing something that is not moving... a statue, a brick, a car ... under these same conditions and determine if you are still getting the same results. Odds are that you will not, but if you do, then start looking for answers. Don't forget that the benefits of IS vary among individuals. Some rock steady folks with perfect technique can hand hold a camera at 1/15 or slower shutter speeds without IS and get great results. Others need shutter speeds of 1/250 to avoid camera shake.

Just a minor comment regarding something that someone already mentioned briefly above, though you probably already know this: How you hold the camera and press the shutter can make a big difference in motion blur. Most people find it best to put the left hand under the lens without gripping too tight (the beginner's instinct is usually to have both hands on the camera, or the left hand above the lens). The right hand can then bear little to no weight at all when pressing the shutter-release button (this needs some practice, the normal instinct is to support the camera's weight with your right hand). It's also best to "squeeze" rather than press the shutter to avoid moving the camera. In single-shot mode, "following through" also helps reduce motion: keep your finger on the shutter button for a second or two after pressing it.

There is no need for a UV filter on a digital camera, it is not sensitive to UV like film was. As people have pointed out, The dog most likely moved enough to cause some blur. Any filter can cause some degradation in an image although some are very good. There is no real need in most cases to have a filter on the lens for "protection." I you have certain L series lenses and are trying for full weather sealing, some require a filter for that. For me, I have shot in rain, snow, sleet and in the dead of night and have not used a filter on any of my lenses with no issues. I bought the camera and gear to use and thought I try to care for my gear, I don't coddle it either. I have shot in Antarctica in the rain, Alaska in the rain, carried my gear into hot springs in Dominica up to my neck in the water, in dust storms, desert conditions etc. In my 30 odd years doing photography I have yet to scratch a lens. (Knock on filter.)

My experience is that Canon bodies and lenses are very poor at focusing on black fur. Get someone with a red scarf, a blue jacket, and a white hat on though and it's sharp time. Kind of a dopey system, IMHO.

It looks like you have a focus issue with the lens in general.
--
Grizzly bears of Glacier National Park
http://www.parkcamper.com/Glacier-National-Park/Glacier-grizzly-bears.htm

IMHO
--
Grizzly bears of Glacier National Park
http://www.parkcamper.com/Glacier-National-Park/Glacier-grizzly-bears.htm

First one looks slightly OOF to me. It should be popping at that distance.
--
Grizzly bears of Glacier National Park
http://www.parkcamper.com/Glacier-National-Park/Glacier-grizzly-bears.htm