Dog in snow - WB, what is wrong here?

Hi. While on a walk today, I took several shots of my dog in the snow.

First, I took a shot of the snow, then used that shot as a custom white balance. The result is the first photo below. It looks pretty warm to me.

Second, I took another shot of the snow and once again used it as a custom WB. However, I accidentally took the second shot of the snow still using the first shot of the snow as the custom WB. Then I took the second shot of the dog below. Much cooler.

Besides resizing for this forum, these photos are right out of the camera. I'm wondering why the first shot came out so warm, and why the second one looks better (to me at least) even though I seemingly screwed up the WB process.

Any insight would be appreciated, and remember I'm an amateur!





macnmotion

You have a classic difficult case here. The ice and snow appear to be cold (bluish) to the human eye due to diffraction. The camera sees more realistically. Personally, I think the first (warm) photo is just fine. I don't care for the second - personal preference. Either could be improved in Photoshop. (What photo couldn't!). My point is that there is NO correct photo. Whatever image you want to convey is what you like and should aim to produce. The camera is pretty dumb - if you want to find a white balance for this setting, great. I prefer to let the camera record the full spectrum and adjust later. After all, I'm not a very good photographer and only 1 in 20 or 30 shots of mine is worth fooling with.

By the way, this is a very handsome fella. I have goldens too, and this guy is really beautiful! Keep up the good work!
Malcolm

In photoshop I went to levels and then changed the channel to red and then hold down the alt key, click on the left arrow under the histogram and slide it to the right until you see red pixels and release. Hold down alt and click on right arrow and slide to the left until you see red pixels and release. change channel to both green and blue and repeat the procedure. This technique is good to remove a color cast from a picture.... The result:

http://www.pbase.com/image/9080382

The second image I simply went into levels again and clicked on the white eye dropper and then clicked on the image what I thought should be the brightest white in the image. You can click all around in the snow and get all kinds of results but you can really blow out some of the white snow if you don't select one of the brightest patches... The result:

http://www.pbase.com/image/9080383

I'll remove the images tomorrow...

Andy C. said:

Hi. While on a walk today, I took several shots of my dog in the snow.

First, I took a shot of the snow, then used that shot as a custom
white balance. The result is the first photo below. It looks pretty
warm to me.

Second, I took another shot of the snow and once again used it as a
custom WB. However, I accidentally took the second shot of the snow
still using the first shot of the snow as the custom WB. Then I
took the second shot of the dog below. Much cooler.

Besides resizing for this forum, these photos are right out of the
camera. I'm wondering why the first shot came out so warm, and why
the second one looks better (to me at least) even though I
seemingly screwed up the WB process.

Any insight would be appreciated, and remember I'm an amateur!





macnmotion

Click to expand...

Thanks, Malcolm. Yes both photos need work in Photoshop, and I'll probably be able to end up with a keeper. I was just wondering why the WB setting worked the way it did. I think your reasoning that the situation is a difficult one is a good one (at least it lets me off the hook somewhat). Frankly, my goal here was to run tests with a subject in the snow. I used fill flash with both, but the onboard flash didn't help much. Maybe next time I'll try a larger flash. Thanks again for the comments.

Hey, let's see your goldens. Here is a shot of all three of mine:



macnmotion

Paul, you did a great job of removing the color cast. Thanks for the tips, and for showing me there's a decent photo somewhere in there.

have a good day. macnmotion

I'm curious about what your custom WB shot looks like. Seeing your cutom WB shot would help.

Bill

Andy C. said:

Paul, you did a great job of removing the color cast. Thanks for
the tips, and for showing me there's a decent photo somewhere in
there.

have a good day. macnmotion

Click to expand...

These are resized, but otherwise direct out of the camera:

First, here is the first WB shot I took. Using this resulted in the warm photo of the dog in the snow:



Second, here is the second WB shot I took, accidentally still loading the first WB shot as a custom WB when I took this. I then used this second shot as the custom WB while taking the "cooler" photo of the dog.



macnmotion

Thanks, I understand now. I think that Canon's custom WB is kind of flawed.

I could never get the custom WB to work for me, I've always used PS later to adjust my WB. I assume that I might loose something that way, I don't know.

Bill

Andy C. said:

These are resized, but otherwise direct out of the camera:

First, here is the first WB shot I took. Using this resulted in the
warm photo of the dog in the snow:



Second, here is the second WB shot I took, accidentally still
loading the first WB shot as a custom WB when I took this. I then
used this second shot as the custom WB while taking the "cooler"
photo of the dog.



macnmotion

Click to expand...

It has a large blue component to it. Use daylight or cloudy setting depending on conditions and adjust exposure comp. to +1 or more for snow. You can use custom WB, but you need to use something that is really white and although snow may appear white to the human eye, it is shifted somewhat to the blue end.

Jack
--
http://www.pbase.com/joneill

thx

Andy C. said:

Hi. While on a walk today, I took several shots of my dog in the snow.

First, I took a shot of the snow, then used that shot as a custom
white balance. The result is the first photo below. It looks pretty
warm to me.

Second, I took another shot of the snow and once again used it as a
custom WB. However, I accidentally took the second shot of the snow
still using the first shot of the snow as the custom WB. Then I
took the second shot of the dog below. Much cooler.

Besides resizing for this forum, these photos are right out of the
camera. I'm wondering why the first shot came out so warm, and why
the second one looks better (to me at least) even though I
seemingly screwed up the WB process.

Any insight would be appreciated, and remember I'm an amateur!

macnmotion

Click to expand...

--
Hi

Having seen your WB shots, the colour cast of your resulting dog photos is completely logical.

Remember, white balancing, auto, preset or manual is a way to tell the camera what colour it should see as "white" and compensate all othe colour accordingly.

Your first WB shot is blue (snow is normally blue as someone else stated) and you are essentially telling the camera that this blue colour is white. The camera now compensates the blue cast, i.e. supresses the blue component and the result is a picture with a yellow cast.

The second WB picture is the taken with this yellowish cast and the camera compesates and you are essentially back to where you started. A sloghtly bluish picture as in the originla WB picture.

If you shoot RAW you have the option of setting the whitebalancing in the postprocessing. It is especially easy if you use BreezeBrowser or Yarc. This makes the WB setting on the camera a little less critical.

HansB

These are great photos! Try taking a Black Lab in the snow on a sunny day....... now there's a challenge!! Plus, my lab is camera shy and as soon as the lens is pointed her direction..... her ears and head go down and I never get that noble expression. :-( I must catch her unaware to get a good shot.
--
Bill Branham
http://members.aol.com/Wsbranham/Page1.html

work just fine shooting Raw or JPEG. Why are you creating more work (head aches) by trying to set WB with the "blue" snow. In any event, you will have to PS'it to taste in the DD. Sometimes the KISS principle is the best.

Just my thought.

Trop

Andy C. said:

Hi. While on a walk today, I took several shots of my dog in the snow.

First, I took a shot of the snow, then used that shot as a custom
white balance. The result is the first photo below. It looks pretty
warm to me.

Second, I took another shot of the snow and once again used it as a
custom WB. However, I accidentally took the second shot of the snow
still using the first shot of the snow as the custom WB. Then I
took the second shot of the dog below. Much cooler.

Besides resizing for this forum, these photos are right out of the
camera. I'm wondering why the first shot came out so warm, and why
the second one looks better (to me at least) even though I
seemingly screwed up the WB process.

Any insight would be appreciated, and remember I'm an amateur!





macnmotion

Click to expand...

--
Troponin (Trop)

Andy C. said:

Any insight would be appreciated, and remember I'm an amateur!

Click to expand...

Andy, I am guessing the first CWB was made on a bluer portion of the snow.

Snow is very blue during normal daylight hours. If you picked an especially blue portion of snow, compensating to make it neutral will make the shot very warm, even the "less blue" parts of snow. The second time you white balanced, the correction wasn't as great. Maybe the light shifted, maybe you didn't pick the exact same spot.

The first shot is sickeningly warm, IMO, and the colors of the second are much better. Of course, you could make them look the same in PS ;-). Nice looking dog!

--
Brian Kennedy
http://www.briankennedy.net/

BillCat said:

Thanks, I understand now. I think that Canon's custom WB is kind
of flawed.

I could never get the custom WB to work for me,

Click to expand...

Try ExpoDisc - It will help a lot with CWB!
After I purchased one I start getting good WB practically with every shoot!

I've always used PS

BillCat said:

later to adjust my WB. I assume that I might loose something that
way, I don't know.

Bill

Andy C. said:

These are resized, but otherwise direct out of the camera:

First, here is the first WB shot I took. Using this resulted in the
warm photo of the dog in the snow:



Second, here is the second WB shot I took, accidentally still
loading the first WB shot as a custom WB when I took this. I then
used this second shot as the custom WB while taking the "cooler"
photo of the dog.



macnmotion

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
I'm not good at English, so you may have some trouble in reading...Sorry!
This forum make me spend more мoney than I aver imaging…
D60,
28-70 f/2.8 L,
550ex,
ExpoDisk,
Newton DI100FR Flash Rotator Bracket,
Lowepro Trim Trekker,
What is next?

Andy C. said:

Hi. While on a walk today, I took several shots of my dog in the snow.

First, I took a shot of the snow, then used that shot as a custom
white balance. The result is the first photo below. It looks pretty
warm to me.

Second, I took another shot of the snow and once again used it as a
custom WB. However, I accidentally took the second shot of the snow
still using the first shot of the snow as the custom WB. Then I
took the second shot of the dog below. Much cooler.

Besides resizing for this forum, these photos are right out of the
camera. I'm wondering why the first shot came out so warm, and why
the second one looks better (to me at least) even though I
seemingly screwed up the WB process.

Any insight would be appreciated, and remember I'm an amateur!





macnmotion

Click to expand...

--
Jonathan Lefcourt
D60,24-70L, 70-200L 2.8 IS, 15-30 Sigma (wish it was 2.8!)
50 1.4, 28-135 IS, Metz 54, 550EX, S40
and a lot of other stuff I drag around!

Thanks for that great colour cast tip! It just goes to show that even if you've been using Photoshop for years, you can still learn more. It sure is a lot quicker and easier than adjusting the Color Balance for highlights, midtones, and shadows.

I tried this on the first image, and although I do like the warm tones, the difference is like night and day along with some curves and USM. Such a great shot of a beautiful subject Andy, and with a little PS, even better!

Michael

PaulS said:

http://www.pbase.com/image/9080382

The second image I simply went into levels again and clicked on the
white eye dropper and then clicked on the image what I thought
should be the brightest white in the image. You can click all
around in the snow and get all kinds of results but you can really
blow out some of the white snow if you don't select one of the
brightest patches... The result:

http://www.pbase.com/image/9080383

I'll remove the images tomorrow...

Andy C. said:

Hi. While on a walk today, I took several shots of my dog in the snow.

First, I took a shot of the snow, then used that shot as a custom
white balance. The result is the first photo below. It looks pretty
warm to me.

Second, I took another shot of the snow and once again used it as a
custom WB. However, I accidentally took the second shot of the snow
still using the first shot of the snow as the custom WB. Then I
took the second shot of the dog below. Much cooler.

Besides resizing for this forum, these photos are right out of the
camera. I'm wondering why the first shot came out so warm, and why
the second one looks better (to me at least) even though I
seemingly screwed up the WB process.

Any insight would be appreciated, and remember I'm an amateur!





macnmotion

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
G2, 420EX, Tiffen 2x & 0.75x
http://www.morpheusmultimedia.com/gallery

You can also try Image/Adjust/Auto Color in PhotoShop 7, sometimes it works pretty well, other times not. Worst case you can use curves to adjust each chanel separately, gives you even more control than layers...

-bn

J Lefcourt said:

Andy C. said:

Hi. While on a walk today, I took several shots of my dog in the snow.

First, I took a shot of the snow, then used that shot as a custom
white balance. The result is the first photo below. It looks pretty
warm to me.

Second, I took another shot of the snow and once again used it as a
custom WB. However, I accidentally took the second shot of the snow
still using the first shot of the snow as the custom WB. Then I
took the second shot of the dog below. Much cooler.

Besides resizing for this forum, these photos are right out of the
camera. I'm wondering why the first shot came out so warm, and why
the second one looks better (to me at least) even though I
seemingly screwed up the WB process.

Any insight would be appreciated, and remember I'm an amateur!





macnmotion

Click to expand...

--
Jonathan Lefcourt
D60,24-70L, 70-200L 2.8 IS, 15-30 Sigma (wish it was 2.8!)
50 1.4, 28-135 IS, Metz 54, 550EX, S40
and a lot of other stuff I drag around!

Click to expand...

This information is from using various methods of trying to get a good white balance setting with my XL-1. I know it is video, but white balance (color temperature balance) theories should apply the same to video or still images.

Just a white object in front of my XL-1 results in a very "cool/bluish" white balance. I think this is a flaw in all XL-1's but I am also real picky on this subject. As you found with your snow bank white balance setting, a bluish white subtracts blue light and gives you a warmer white balance. Using a yellowish white subtracts yellow and gives you a cooler white balance. If you have to set the white balance on something with that much detail, try throwing the snow bank out of focus.

Given that my XL-1 will NOT white balance properly with just a white card, I end up using various combinations of minus blue and minus green gels to get the balance I want. A 1/4 minus blue combined with a 1/8 minus green is pretty close. Without the minus green the colors look a little on the green side. The minus green takes care of that.

Check out Rosco.com. They will send you a free gel pack and you can experiment with various gels placed in front of your lens when you set the white balance. You can also check out warmcards.com. They have cards in various "minus blues" and "minus greens" that might help you out. It is about the same as placing a gel in front of your lens but you only have one item to hold instead of two or three.

Having said all that, the XL-1' auto mode does a better job for any one frame than any manual setting I have come up with. The problem is that auto mode is synonymous with continuosly variable. Once you develop an eye for it, you can see the white balance change every few seconds or so. This means keyframing color correction in post which is incredibly time consuming. With my D-60 I don't worry about white balance since I always do some tweaking anyway. With DV, I prefer to leave things unrendered which is why I fight so hard for a good white balance. I either set the white balance manually as best I can and color correct one frame, or just go with auto and leave it alone since most people can't tell the difference.

Here is another tip. Try white balancing with a medium gray instead of bright white. I know it sounds crazy but bright white is real close to 100 IRE's. and flesh tones are closer to 75. An 18% gray card (Cameraworld.com for $4) is much closer to 75 IRE's and it will help flesh tones a little. Also, I prefer to throw the focus off when setting white balance with this gray card as it has a noticeable texture if I don't.

Good luck and if you figure out the perfect WB setup, please pass it along.

Greg Matty

IMO, snow can be used very effectively for WB as long as you use a part of the snow that's in sunlight. I just did a test outside with a photographic grey card and the white snow seemed to produce even slightly better results than the grey card somehow. I shot in RAW and used BreezeBrowser to pick the white point from the snow in sunlight, snow in shadow, grey card, and also used Auto and Daylight settings. The GC custom WB was slightly cool but not bad, the Auto and Daylight presets where almost identical and were quite good as well though slightly warm. The WB chosen from the snow in shadow had a disgusting Orange cast to it while the WB from the snow in sunlight was almost perfect. BTW, I'm obviously evaluating the WB for a subject that's in the direct sunlight, not in the shadows, and none of this discussion relates to dirty snow (make sure you watch where your dog goes to the washroom).

I beleive snow itself is quite neutral but very reflective so will pick up colour from whatever objects are around it. In the case of snow in the shadows, it's primary source of reflectance comes from the bright blue sky overhead so that is what colour the snow in the shadows appears to be. I guess the blue sky would add a slight bit of blue to the sunlit areas as well, but it seems to be overpowered by the direct sun which is normally a bit red at this time of year anyway due to its lower position on the horizon (at least in Canada). I don't know how this will all work in overcast days, but I imagine any clean snow would be fairly neutral.

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just using my logic and my quick test I just performed outside for my evaluation.

Michael

Jack O'Neill said:

It has a large blue component to it. Use daylight or cloudy setting
depending on conditions and adjust exposure comp. to +1 or more for
snow. You can use custom WB, but you need to use something that is
really white and although snow may appear white to the human eye,
it is shifted somewhat to the blue end.

Jack
--
http://www.pbase.com/joneill

Click to expand...

--
G2, 420EX, Tiffen 2x & 0.75x
http://www.morpheusmultimedia.com/gallery