Nikon Answer to Canon and Kodak: DX Lenses?!

David62882

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PLEASE tell me that it's not true! Instead of coming out with a full-frame body, Nikon has decided to offer a new lens design!!! The new DX series "offers" a lighter design to take into account the smaller sensor size in digital bodies.

Help, I'm melting ...
 
Unfortunately, it is basically a new lens format. If Nikon ever did come out with full frame DSLR's, these DX lenses would be white elephants because they would project an image circle smaller than the sensor frame. The same currently applies to using these lenses on 35mm film SLR's-- the image circle is smaller than the film frame. So, it Nikon does eventually offer a full frame upgrade path, the best way to minimize your inconvenience and financial loss is probably to limit your investment in DX lenses. In other words, if Nikon starts bring out a whole gaggle of DX lenses, I would be very cautious about jumping aboard.
PLEASE tell me that it's not true! Instead of coming out with a
full-frame body, Nikon has decided to offer a new lens design!!!
The new DX series "offers" a lighter design to take into account
the smaller sensor size in digital bodies.

Help, I'm melting ...
 
What's the problem? Nikon have very sensibly solved the wide angle problem for thousands of D100, D1, D1x, Fuji S1, S2 owners.

Do you really think Nikon don't know what they are doing? This is a sensible and overdue move to help current camera owners. It has nothing to do with the future of a Nikon full frame DSLR.

RIL
PLEASE tell me that it's not true! Instead of coming out with a
full-frame body, Nikon has decided to offer a new lens design!!!
The new DX series "offers" a lighter design to take into account
the smaller sensor size in digital bodies.

Help, I'm melting ...
 
I hope you're right...it makes sense...hopefully this is Nikon's way of supporting their existing user base. Some folks won't want to, or need to, upgrade to FF camer models as they begin rolling in...which is nice...ok bring on the FF camers! :)

Personally I think Nikon released this news BEFORE PMA so as not to detract from their real PMA announcements...(hopefully)...
Do you really think Nikon don't know what they are doing? This is
a sensible and overdue move to help current camera owners. It has
nothing to do with the future of a Nikon full frame DSLR.

RIL
PLEASE tell me that it's not true! Instead of coming out with a
full-frame body, Nikon has decided to offer a new lens design!!!
The new DX series "offers" a lighter design to take into account
the smaller sensor size in digital bodies.

Help, I'm melting ...
 
Unfortunately, it is basically a new lens format. If Nikon ever
did come out with full frame DSLR's, these DX lenses would be white
elephants because they would project an image circle smaller than
the sensor frame. The same currently applies to using these lenses
on 35mm film SLR's-- the image circle is smaller than the film
frame. So, it Nikon does eventually offer a full frame upgrade
path, the best way to minimize your inconvenience and financial
loss is probably to limit your investment in DX lenses. In other
words, if Nikon starts bring out a whole gaggle of DX lenses, I
would be very cautious about jumping aboard.
Read the release carefully. Nikon indicates that they're designing these lenses to 200 lppm standards, which is MUCH higher than virtually all 35mm lenses achieve. I'm extremely curious to see how chromatic aberration is on these lenses compared to full-frame lenses on the Canon 1Ds (which is a REAL problem).

Quite frankly, I don't much care about the size of the sensor (though this does have implications on photosite size, which I do care about somewhat, as it is related to noise performance). What I DO care about are the tradeoffs between price, size, and quality. If Nikon produces a camera the size of the D100 with the quality of a Canon 1Ds at a price that's thousands less, I'm on board.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
 
What I DO care about are the tradeoffs between price, size, and quality. If Nikon produces a camera the size of the D100 with the quality of a Canon 1Ds at a price that's thousands less, I'm on board.
Well said and I could not agree more. Let's see when Nikon or someone else gets to match the 1Ds without a full frame sensor. A Foveon sensor might do the trick.

We will see whether it is defensive or offensive by Nikon once they have a camera matching the 1Ds in terms of resolution.

On the other side Canon is aware that the 1Ds is a challenge to their own lenses (Chromatic aberration).

Interesting a year ago the sensors were not up to the lenses and now the oposite is true. The 1Ds is really a milestone camera.

Uwe
Unfortunately, it is basically a new lens format. If Nikon ever
did come out with full frame DSLR's, these DX lenses would be white
elephants because they would project an image circle smaller than
the sensor frame. The same currently applies to using these lenses
on 35mm film SLR's-- the image circle is smaller than the film
frame. So, it Nikon does eventually offer a full frame upgrade
path, the best way to minimize your inconvenience and financial
loss is probably to limit your investment in DX lenses. In other
words, if Nikon starts bring out a whole gaggle of DX lenses, I
would be very cautious about jumping aboard.
Read the release carefully. Nikon indicates that they're designing
these lenses to 200 lppm standards, which is MUCH higher than
virtually all 35mm lenses achieve. I'm extremely curious to see how
chromatic aberration is on these lenses compared to full-frame
lenses on the Canon 1Ds (which is a REAL problem).

Quite frankly, I don't much care about the size of the sensor
(though this does have implications on photosite size, which I do
care about somewhat, as it is related to noise performance). What I
DO care about are the tradeoffs between price, size, and quality.
If Nikon produces a camera the size of the D100 with the quality of
a Canon 1Ds at a price that's thousands less, I'm on board.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
 
Read the release carefully. Nikon indicates that they're designing
these lenses to 200 lppm standards, which is MUCH higher than
virtually all 35mm lenses achieve.
Maybe I'm missing something, but where in the press release does it say that Nikon is "designing these lenses to 200 lppm standards, which is MUCH higher than virtually all 35mm lenses achieve?" And even if that were true, does that imply that up to this point manufacturers have simply been sandbagging their lens optical performance to a lower standard? Or that this new lens format somehow allows them to take lens optical performance to a whole new level that simply isn't possible with a full-frame lens? On the contrary, I think lens manufacturers have always been designing for the sharpest lenses possible. These are just lenses that happen to project a smaller image circle, and in doing so, are able to be smaller themselves. Besides, I think there's a lot of marketing propaganda in that release that should be taken with a grain of salt, anyway. The release has to be convincing because they are basically leaving their film user base behind.
 
Just joking. It as pretty annoyed at Photokina that all they were able to muster for the biggest trade show in two years was a new coolpix. Nothing exciting like the 14n or the 1ds. No. A coolpix.

Way to go nikon!!
--
Al
Set low goals and you'll never be disapointed.
 
Hi,

All lens are built to standards that are far less then could be done if price was not an issue.

If Canon 1Ds has not completely solved the wide angle lens issue with DSLR's and the solution is 200 lppm standard lens. That would mean Nikon need to produce a 200 lppm lens for Full frame/ smaller cameras like the D100. It therefore makes sense to launch then lens, then issue the new camera & lens for demo.

The new camera will therefore get much better reviews for Wide angle performance reguardless of how much is due to the camera.
Just joking. It as pretty annoyed at Photokina that all they were
able to muster for the biggest trade show in two years was a new
coolpix. Nothing exciting like the 14n or the 1ds. No. A coolpix.

Way to go nikon!!
--
Al
Set low goals and you'll never be disapointed.
--
Alex
LWS photographic (UK)
 
Read the release carefully. Nikon indicates that they're designing
these lenses to 200 lppm standards, which is MUCH higher than
virtually all 35mm lenses achieve. I'm extremely curious to see how
chromatic aberration is on these lenses compared to full-frame
lenses on the Canon 1Ds (which is a REAL problem).
Chromatic aberration isn't a big issue with modern, pro quality Canon or Nikon lenses used with very fine grained film shot on full frame 35mm. Why would it be a bigger issue for an 11MP digital full frame sensor ? Is this another aspect of the trade-offs involved in designing an anti-aliasing filter? Is this likely to be a bigger issue for the Kodak 14 MP camera?
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but where in the press release does it
say that Nikon is "designing these lenses to 200 lppm standards,
which is MUCH higher than virtually all 35mm lenses achieve?" And
even if that were true, does that imply that up to this point
manufacturers have simply been sandbagging their lens optical
performance to a lower standard? Or that this new lens format
somehow allows them to take lens optical performance to a whole new
level that simply isn't possible with a full-frame lens?
The latter, I think. Smaller pieces of glass are easier to make to precise standards for the same or less cost.

Look at the lenses on consumer digicams, 33-140mm, f2-f3, on a camera that costs about that the lens would, if it were for a 35mm camera.
 
Yes, smaller lenses allow for a higher resolution per mm, at a cost that would be unaffordable with bigger lenses.

Today also, 35 mm lenses perform better per mm than medium format lenses, even if these lenses are fixed focals and very costly. They more than make up for that because they can use a large film size.

So, the idea to have the choice between these 2 types of lenses is very interesting.

Choose full frame 2.8 telelenses for the nice bokeh in portret work, but go for the DX format for wideangle work. And why not a low weight 24-105 2.8 DX high quality lens for your travel work. (Just some examples.)

In addition, the current format of sensors is not to its end yet, and already we are achieving quality beyong traditional 35 mm IMHO. There is a market for smaller sensor reflex camera´s, that is for sure. Staying on a Nikon mount gives us a choice.
Jos
Peter Phan wrote:
Or that this new lens format
somehow allows them to take lens optical performance to a whole new
level that simply isn't possible with a full-frame lens?
 
I'm guessing Nikon will end up with two levels of digital SLRs: the professional line with a full frame sensor and the prosumer line with the smaller sensor that will use the new lenses.

Like many pros, I'm delighted with the D100 and am working around its wide angle limitations by liberal use of the 16mm full frame fisheye. With the D100 it's an every day lens instead of the special purpose lens it was with film.

Eric
 
I'm guessing Nikon will end up with two levels of digital SLRs: the
professional line with a full frame sensor and the prosumer line
with the smaller sensor that will use the new lenses.
I'm amused by the suggestions that FF is somehow 'professional' and that the smaller sensor is 'prosumer' (whatever that means). For a lot of professionals, speed is more important than getting maximum resolution.

That is why photo-journalists and sports shooters don't use Hasselblads. Not many lansdcape photographers use plate cameras nowadays.

The whole issue of sensor size will be determined by a complex series of trade-offs: equipment size; manufacturing costs; noise; resolution/output; processing speed; fps; limits on optical designs etc etc.

peter ibbotson
 
Read the release carefully. Nikon indicates that they're designing
these lenses to 200 lppm standards, which is MUCH higher than
virtually all 35mm lenses achieve.
Maybe I'm missing something, but where in the press release does it
say that Nikon is "designing these lenses to 200 lppm standards,
which is MUCH higher than virtually all 35mm lenses achieve?"
It was in one of the Japanese releases I saw.
And
even if that were true, does that imply that up to this point
manufacturers have simply been sandbagging their lens optical
performance to a lower standard?
No. Most lens designs for 35mm tended to run around 100 lppm at optimal apertures using film.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
 
I think the controverial issue is that if you go down the DX path, all your lenses are going to have a smaller image circle. In other words, DX lenses aren't "backwards" compatible with full frame. You go small, you stay small. So essentially, you are self-limiting yourself to a certain sensor size. It's like choosing between medium format and 35mm film formats. At least with full-frame lenses, you can use them on both FF and smaller format sensors. As always, I think it's best to choose the system, not the camera. It's much easier to jump from camera to camera than lens system to lens system.
I'm guessing Nikon will end up with two levels of digital SLRs: the
professional line with a full frame sensor and the prosumer line
with the smaller sensor that will use the new lenses.
I'm amused by the suggestions that FF is somehow 'professional' and
that the smaller sensor is 'prosumer' (whatever that means). For a
lot of professionals, speed is more important than getting maximum
resolution.

That is why photo-journalists and sports shooters don't use
Hasselblads. Not many lansdcape photographers use plate cameras
nowadays.

The whole issue of sensor size will be determined by a complex
series of trade-offs: equipment size; manufacturing costs; noise;
resolution/output; processing speed; fps; limits on optical designs
etc etc.

peter ibbotson
 
Chromatic aberration isn't a big issue with modern, pro quality
Canon or Nikon lenses used with very fine grained film shot on full
frame 35mm.
I'm not sure I'd 100% agree with that. Most of us who work with the best wides (e.g., Nikkor 17-35mm) have seen CA in the corners, though it's not always obvious without close examination or severe magnification.
Why would it be a bigger issue for an 11MP digital
full frame sensor ?
Film consists of multiple layers of overlapping grains. Digital consists of a single layer or isolated photosites that do not cover the entire area and are sensitive to the angle at which the light hits them. With Bayer-pattern cameras, any CA that hits only one photosite would tend to bias the color the RGB pixels calculated from that photosite. (And I suspect the Foveon sensor would have a similar problem due to the angle at which the light hits.)
Is this another aspect of the trade-offs
involved in designing an anti-aliasing filter?
An anti-aliasing filter would have an effect of some sort, but that could be a positive or negative one, depending upon the design.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide
author, Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D100
author, Complete Guide to the Nikon D1, D1h, & D1x
http://www.bythom.com
 
Yes, smaller lenses allow for a higher resolution per mm, at a cost
that would be unaffordable with bigger lenses.
But diffraction limits any lens to 125 lp/mm or less at f/8. I guess they could try to design a lens that's sharper wide-open than it is at f/8 -- Canon did it with their 200/1.8 for only $3,500 -- but since smaller image circles only help with wide angle lenses, this would be kind of pointless and counterproductive.
Today also, 35 mm lenses perform better per mm than medium format
lenses, even if these lenses are fixed focals and very costly.
That's because 35 mm lenses are a bigger market, and there's a lot more R&D put into them.
Choose full frame 2.8 telelenses for the nice bokeh in portret
work, but go for the DX format for wideangle work. And why not a
low weight 24-105 2.8 DX high quality lens for your travel work.
(Just some examples.)
I don't know where the limit is, but I'd guess it's right around 24 mm. Beyond that, you don't gain anything by making the image circle smaller. It's already much larger than it needs to be, because of the way the lens is designed. I've read that a 35 mm 300/2.8 would cover medium format if the lens casing didn't prevent that.
 
Hello!
Look at the lenses on consumer digicams, 33-140mm, f2-f3, on a
camera that costs about that the lens would, if it were for a 35mm
camera.
Have you seen the quality of those "cool" lenses?! I wouldn't be so hasty to pull down the existing 35mm lenses. My 17-35mm AFS does exhibit some chromatic aberation in the edges (as does my 80-200mm AFS), but this first became a problem to me with the introduction of Nikons D1x (I have also used the D1 for about two years).

You can actually remove chromatic aberation with a mathematical formula and a small plugin exist for photoshop. The camera makers should work on implementing such formulas in the firmware, rather than cranking out new lenses.

Granted, the quality always suffers in the edges of all lenses!
--
with regards
anders lundholm · [email protected]
the sphereworx / monoliner experience
 

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