Help please with wedding photos being published in book

I asked this in a general forum, but someone suggested asking here!

I am a professional wedding photographer. I have been asked by a bride about a book someone is including her and her husband in. They both lost their previous spouses. He is a veteran and lost his previous wife in a military related death. Her previous husband was lost in the war. The book will inlude their story and how they met etc. I have told the bride that the publisher/author will need to gain rights from us, as it is not something she gained permission to in her contract. If anyone has any help on this, I would really appreciate it! Until yesterday I had absolutely no knowlede on publishing images etc. I have searched on line but haven't figured everything out! The contract stated that only her and I had the rights to the images. Technically the book is another person who would need to gain rights, correct? Should I charge for this use? If so, any idea how much? Thanks SOOO MUCH!!!

Send her a letter saying she has permission to tell the publisher it is OK to use the images.

Tell her to ask the publisher to call you if there are technical problems withthe existing files.

Modify the files if necessary and send them to the publisher.

No money changes hands.

BAK

I was expecting to be paid at least something for this. If the book publisher is selling the book to make money, why should they use my images for free to help them accomplish this? I just think it would make business sense to be paid for my work. I'm not looking to get rich, but if they are using my image and selling a lot of books, it should not be free. That's just my opinion. Thanks for your reply!

MarylandPhotographer said:

The contract stated that only her and I had the rights to the images. Technically the > book is another person who would need to gain rights, correct? Should I charge for > this use? If so, any idea how much?

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I don't think anyone can give you adequate advice based upon what you wrote (see above). You say she and you have right to the images, but what rights: the right to display, to print, to publish, all rights? Those rights are an important facto and you have not defined them.

No the book is not a person, but the publisher must have the right to publish the photo(s). Usually the book author of the book secures the right to publish for the publisher, but not always. You need more facts to get good advice.

As for the fee to charge that also depend on factors like size of reproduction in print, inside or cover, press run, etc. Can't advise without those facts.

It just might be easier to give them the right to publish as a reward for their service. That is what I would do.

--
Richard Weisgrau
http://www.weisgrau.com
Author of
The Real Business of Photography
The Photographer's Guide to Negotiating
Selling Your Photography
Licensing Photography

Feel free to grub a hundred bucks while pi..ing off the clients you have who lost loved ones to war.

How much more money is the publisher going to make by having your photos? How much less will it get by dropping your shots?

How happy will your clients be if the photos are dropped because you want some extra money?

But you are right. Money is very important. Rewrite your contracts for the next time.

BAK

Yep, you're right, the publisher deserves money for the book but the photographer deserves none for his work. What world are you from?

Yes, I must admit, I was thinking exactly the same thing. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

It kinda slaps in the face of what I read so much on the pro forums about people (amateurs) giving their work away and how it undermines everything the pros are trying to do.

It's a grey area with no correct answer, but to launch into the OP about expecting some sort of compensation isn't fair either.

If he was a well known photographer, he would be charging thousands per shot and nobody would think twice about it.

--
Ingrid

If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence ....
WATER YOUR OWN LAWN !!!
http://www.ingridmatschkephotos.com.au

Most books make very little money.

You have a choice:

1. Demand money for your photograph's use, not have it used and generally lose goodwill, (or at best earn a TINY amount)

2 Allow the picture to be used with a credit and gain goodwill.

It's your choice but BAK is the one being realistic here. Surely you don't tell brides and grooms that they can't offer to publish a wedding photograph in a newspaper or in a magazine without paying you further money? Newspapers and magazines make money too.

You will rapidly gain a poor reputation if you are this inflexible.

It would be useful to know more about the book and the publishing deal. Is the book a for profit publication or an all to charity publication? Are the designers, art workers and printers being paid normal rates or not? A bit more information if possible would be helpful.

There is an obvious solution to this. Ask about the reason for publishing this book. If it is being published to raise money for veterans or their families then ask for a photo credit. If it is being published purely as a commercial venture (making money for publisher/author) then I see no reason not to ask for small sum say $200 ($100 for you $100 for the couple involved).

Ian

chris_uk said:

It would be useful to know more about the book and the publishing deal. Is the book a for profit publication or an all to charity publication? Are the designers, art workers and printers being paid normal rates or not? A bit more information if possible would be helpful.

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The above, plus the below, equals the correct answer. If the book is simply a for profit venture where the designer, editor, etc. are getting paid than there is no reason the photographer shouldn't be paid as well. If it's a charity project than a credit line is reasonable.

iancrowe said:

There is an obvious solution to this. Ask about the reason for publishing this book. If it is being published to raise money for veterans or their families then ask for a photo credit. If it is being published purely as a commercial venture (making money for publisher/author) then I see no reason not to ask for small sum say $200 ($100 for you $100 for the couple involved).

Ian

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I would ask for money, but not much, perhaps 80$. And for 3 copies of the book.

Without reading your contract I can't comment on the legality, but if anyone needs to explain to you the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, you wouldn't understand.

Sam

Sam2 said:

Without reading your contract I can't comment on the legality, but if anyone needs to explain to you the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, you wouldn't understand.

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So you're asserting that the moral thing to do is for him to give things away for free while everyone else involved with the book gets paid? Weird morals you have.

A very common mistake is to confuse copyright ownership and usage licensing. Copyright denotes specifically "the right to copy". In other words, the copyright owner can determine how the property will be used. (There are exceptions under under things such as fair use and parody, but we won't get into that here.) Licensing involves the terms under which you permit others to use your work. For example, whenever I supply a couple with wedding images, I retain full ownership but grant to them non-commercial rights to reproduce them. That is, they can print them for their own personal consumption, or share them with family and friends, but they may not make any money with them. Why is this important? Well, suppose you simply gave away the copyright, as many newbies do (advertising "you own your images"). In such a case, you would receive nothing in the event that they became commercially valuable outside their value as merely personal consumption. For example, if a magazine wanted to publish them and were willing to pay to do so, the bride would receive the money. Or if the groom became president and a top-selling book included the photos, the bride would get the money. Or if a shot became an album cover. Etc etc. Think it can't happen? There are legal disputes all the time over this sort of thing because proper contracts were not secured in advance explicitly laying out an ownership agreement.

In your case, it seems as if you gave away a 50 percent share in the ownership of your images because you didn't understand the difference. You and the bride could thus share any revenue generated from the use of the photos under the terms of your contract.

But realistically....

I am all for photographers getting their due share. But in all honesty, I do not see this project being a high dollar project that would warrant large payments from the publisher for photo usage. As such, I would negotiate a simple contract with the publisher granting SPECIFIC usage with a specific limit. For example, you might specify that they can use the photos only for the stated publication and only for up to xxxx number of copies without charge. After that number, however, should more copies be made (a sign that the publisher is doing quite well with it), a certain usage fee kicks in, perhaps even retroactively for the previous copies, too. For example, they could print 5,000 copies with no usage fees. Should they print another 5,000 copies, a usage fee of $50 per image per thousand copies would become due. Naturally, these numbers are all hypothetical, but they should give you an idea. And of course, the bride would get half of these funds, as she has a fifty percent ownership of them. Chances are, the number of copies is so low that no money will EVER change hands. But you do need to protect your rights JUST IN CASE. You'd likely be somewhat sore if the book became a best seller and you saw the couple making the talk show circuit while your images were being plastered all over television and meanwhile you sit at home watching other people make the money.

Best of luck

MarylandPhotographer wrote:

The contract stated that only her and I had the rights to the images. Technically the book is another person who would need to gain rights, correct? Should I charge for this use? If so, any idea how much? Thanks SOOO MUCH!!!

Biggs23 said:

So you're asserting that the moral thing to do is for him to give things away for free while everyone else involved with the book gets paid? Weird morals you have.

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this trick has been used for decades by the "non-profit" professionals (meaning that they do get paid to organize "non-profit" events) asking the photographers to work (unlike them) for free.

usually they (all) start like this "we have a low and very limited budget ... " meaning: I get paid but after my money there is nuthing left for you. But they promise to spread the word so we can get more free work... thanks to them.

nowadays even some web developer comes out all surprised when they realize that our product pictures are not shared for our love for their Clients. Imagine that.

If they're good enough to publish, they're good enough to pay for.

+1 to the above. If it is commercial then the OP certainly should be paid.

Biggs23 said:

Yep, you're right, the publisher deserves money for the book but the photographer deserves none for his work. What world are you from?

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It,s been 15 years since I was involved in wedding , I guessing the bride paid for the wedding and the bridesmaid outfits etc and the photographer was paid to take photos.

Back in the film days couples where given the option of buying the film or it was destroyed after x years usually 3-5 ( well they where in the area I was, can't speak for the rest of the world )

I guess contracts now are very different to what they used to be. I think the best option would be to give approval for the images to be used in the book on condition that it clearly states thats the "wedding photos where supplied by XYZ" and the photo could not be used in any other way and ask for a small usage fee for the first print run say $0.10 per copy , higher usage fee for 2nd, 3rd runs etc .... Getting your name in the book is good advertizing at little cost since you where already paid to take the photos, if the book does not sell then you make a little extra if it does sell you make a lot extra , then if the photos take off and say maginze ABC wants it for a cover then you can charge a lot more. Also you may get extra work from the book....

Worst case you make a little extra for very little extra work and get some advertising out of it. best case you make a more money . If you ask to much you may end up with nothing. There is nothing wrong with planting a little seed every now and then, you never now what might grow from them....

Just think of it has advertising. The important thing is to make sure the photo is only used for the book . Then you are covered in the "what ifs ABC wants to use the photo" situation .

most of the responses here suck a fart. (not all)

COPYRIGHT remains with the person whom took the photos... go to court and find out.

I'm no-one but I've been taking photos for a million years. If you want to publish one of them... ask me really nicely or you'll end up 30K short like the last b!tch whom on-sold my photos because of a contract she didn't read right.

The judge will always rule in favour of the "artist" whom took the photos and owns them.

The bride owns notheing and never will... all she can do is show the snaps to her friends.