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Can you demonstrat the EXR mode capability in DR?

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Sunshine_boy

Sunshine_boy

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I have seen many photos posted that look good in contrasty situations, mainly from F200. I have not seen any real life shots though comparing the EXR mode to the exact equivalent non-EXR mode.

I presume that the X10 carries the latest and best development of the EXR function.

Could you post such a demo please? Either from the X10 or the F200.
! BUT...

When you take the non-EXR shot, please try to get the best result as you would if you did not have the EXR functionality, ie dial in some -ve exposure compensation, say -1/3 or -2/3 as you see fit.

What I am driving at really is to witness the difference in DR that the EXR mode can make. If you so happen to have an old F30/31 too, then a shot from that along with the 2 shots from your EXR cam would be great.

Thanks for your time
--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours... :)
 
Here is a comparison I made a time ago.
I will do another comparison as soon as I get some nice weather.







 
Sunshine_boy said:
What I am driving at really is to witness the difference in DR that the EXR mode can make.
Click to expand...
I discovered - totally by accident - that the HS20EXR has DR bracketing at the weekend and took a few series for my own amusement - it takes 3 shots at the same exposure with 100% DR, 200%DR and 400%DR.

I prepped these to show someone else, they don't meet the test criteria you specified but do show exactly the advantage I have found with it - you get protected highlights without the overall darkening you'd get with lowering exposure with EC or otherwise to prevent highlights from blowing.

The graphics should be self-explanatory - I haven't included the 200% as it's just bang in the middle of these two. EXIF should be in them. they're just re-sized with no PP - I shoot with low in-camera settings.





And 1:1 pixel crops from an area showing highlights and shadows:





--
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Sunshine_boy said:
I have not seen any real life shots though comparing the EXR mode to the exact equivalent non-EXR mode.
Click to expand...
You are right.

At this stage it looks as if we don't have many people who understand the mode and understand under what conditions it is useful.
Sunshine_boy said:
I presume that the X10 carries the latest and best development of the EXR function.
Click to expand...
We would hope so but no one has managed to shoot RAW in full DR mode, yet, on the X10 . Did you see that thread?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1012&message=39717384

In fact, the best images that really demonstrate EXR-DR mode were shot on the F550 and posted a week ago. They show that the smaller sensor in the F550 can easily pull back around 3.0EV , maybe more.

These were shot by edu T and posted in another thread as RAW downloads. I have taken them and added a histogram to make it a little more graphical.

As shot, +3EV over-exposure dialled in:





As opened in Silkypix, with -2.8EV exposure adjustment, and setting the black point back to 0:





You simply cannot get a highlight recovery of this magnitude from any other current sensor of any sort up to full frame, anywhere that I know of. These EXR sensors are incredible in this area.

As for the other modes, I really think most folk do not understand when and how they work. Many/most are not even interested at this stage.
Sunshine_boy said:
Could you post such a demo please? Either from the X10 or the F200.
! BUT...

When you take the non-EXR shot, please try to get the best result as you would if you did not have the EXR functionality, ie dial in some -ve exposure compensation, say -1/3 or -2/3 as you see fit.
Click to expand...
Is that -ve necessary? At this stage the only real demo I've seen needed +3EV of overexposure to show the DR overload capability. Ideally (in my world anyway) there are many opportunities with high contrast scenes where DR should work, but I don't have my X10 yet.
Sunshine_boy said:
What I am driving at really is to witness the difference in DR that the EXR mode can make. If you so happen to have an old F30/31 too, then a shot from that along with the 2 shots from your EXR cam would be great.
Click to expand...
I hope you are really referring to "bringing back over-exposed highlights." I think i's hard to see any other DR feature/advantage.
--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com
 
Trevor G said:
Trevor G said:
As shot, +3EV over-exposure dialled in in the camera ...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
...simply by using exposure autobracketing ON TOP of EC=2.

I'd be heartfully glad should you remember to mention the statement above whenever you speak of "+3EV OE'd" inasmuch for several observers it's not a readily obvious in-camera tweaking... non è vero? Wish you the best,
--eduardo tanaka
 
Thank you for posting your sample shots. In both cases, the difference (to the better) the EXR mode makes is quite perceptible. There is certainly more detail in the highlights without unduly darkening the rest.

This answers half of my question though. What remains to be demonstrated is an image shot in normal (ie Non EXR) mode for which some -ve compensation was dialed in. The reason I wish to see such an image is that , if I do not have an EXR camera, the only way to cope with a high contrast scene is to dial in some -ve EC to protect the highlights.

In other words, I pose the question "Can't I cope with this scene by using -ve EC on a normal (Non-EXR) cam or should I use an EXR cam (in EXR mode) to get a descent result"?

I hope you can find an opportunity to provide us with this answer too.
Thanks again for your time
--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours... :)
 
John Carson said:
Sunshine_boy said:
I have seen many photos posted that look good in contrasty situations, mainly from F200. I have not seen any real life shots though comparing the EXR mode to the exact equivalent non-EXR mode.
Click to expand...
See here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/FujifilmF200EXR/page9.asp
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link John. I remember reading it in the past. It is a good way to refresh one's understanding of the EXR function. However, DPR do not show what I want to see: The same shot in HR with say -1/3 EC dialed in . If the DR is good enough with some -ve EC, why sacrifice the full resolution?

--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours... :)
 
Hi Trev,

Your example is the opposite to what I was asking for. You (or rather Edu) deliberately overexposed in EXR mode to see if the situation can be corrected in PP. And it seems that it can, quite impressively too.

But I am asking for the other way round. Underexpose by way of -ve EC and assess the OOC result. If needed then PP doing the opposite to what you did. If that works 'well enough' wouldn't be an advantage having a high res image (12mp) instead of 6mp?
--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours... :)
 
Sunshine_boy said:
(...) please try to get the best result as you would if you did not have the EXR functionality, ie dial in some -ve exposure compensation, say -1/3 or -2/3 as you see fit.
Click to expand...
Later,
Sunshine_boy said:
(...) But I am asking for the other way round. Underexpose by way of -ve EC and assess the OOC result.
Click to expand...
"Id est as you see fit" is different from "I am asking you to underexpose", non è vero?

Cannot help but believe the succinct reading John Carson has pointed out above, http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/FujifilmF200EXR/page9.asp , is worth a third perusing. For me, it was. ;)
 


This is a crude test for dynamic range taken with a S200EXR (same sensor as F200exr). The shot was taken in a parking garage with exposure set to the dark wall of the building. Notice the outside trees and hills are blown out at DR100% which is the same as "non exr mode" or "non-DR mode". All exposure setting are the same in the three shots and there is no PP except cropping and stitching.
 
Sunshine_boy said:
John Carson said:
Sunshine_boy said:
I have seen many photos posted that look good in contrasty situations, mainly from F200. I have not seen any real life shots though comparing the EXR mode to the exact equivalent non-EXR mode.
Click to expand...
See here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/FujifilmF200EXR/page9.asp
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link John. I remember reading it in the past. It is a good way to refresh one's understanding of the EXR function. However, DPR do not show what I want to see: The same shot in HR with say -1/3 EC dialed in . If the DR is good enough with some -ve EC, why sacrifice the full resolution?
Click to expand...
DR 400 effectively dials in -2 EV for the highlights and DR 800 dials in -3 EV (though the results are then finessed in order to blend the two lots of photosites together). For scenes in which that level of adjustment is needed, this is no reason to expect that HR with -1/3 EV will do much for the highlights — plus it will darken everything else. If you are shooting a DSLR, then you can under-expose dramatically and then lift the shadows in post-processing. With a compact, doing that gives you a noise-fest.

For lots of shots, of course, you don't need any adjustments for DR: the scene just doesn't have enough contrast to warrant it. For others, a little finessing of the tone curve will do the job. But for high contrast scenes where, by default, photosites are actually blown and blown by a big margin, EV compensation isn't going to do it for you with a compact.

I want to stress that if people do the test you have requested, then it is important to shoot scenes in which the highlights are blown in HR mode when there is 0 EV. It highlights are not blown, then DR mode isn't going to appear to offer much in the comparison.

--
john carson
 
edu T said:
Trevor G said:
As shot, +3EV over-exposure dialled in in the camera ...
Click to expand...
...simply by using exposure autobracketing ON TOP of EC=2.

I'd be heartfully glad should you remember to mention the statement above whenever you speak of "+3EV OE'd" inasmuch for several observers it's not a readily obvious in-camera tweaking... non è vero? Wish you the best,
Click to expand...
Sorry.

I would have thought that my posts are long enough now without inserting something that is not relevant to the image. ;-)

It's relevant to specific camera usage, and I would mention it for sure if we had a thread on using the F550, but as an example of +3EV highlight correction the way you achieved it, clever as it is, is surely not as important as the actual image result itself?

Or am I missing something important?

I mention in-camera because someone thought that you just added 3EV to the image, then took it out again.

--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com
 
Trevor G said:
Sunshine_boy said:
When you take the non-EXR shot, please try to get the best result as you would if you did not have the EXR functionality, ie dial in some -ve exposure compensation, say -1/3 or -2/3 as you see fit.
Click to expand...
Is that -ve necessary? At this stage the only real demo I've seen needed +3EV of overexposure to show the DR overload capability. Ideally (in my world anyway) there are many opportunities with high contrast scenes where DR should work, but I don't have my X10 yet.
Click to expand...
The point is that he is talking about using HR mode, not DR mode.

--
john carson
 
Sunshine_boy said:
But I am asking for the other way round. Underexpose by way of -ve EC and assess the OOC result. If needed then PP doing the opposite to what you did. If that works 'well enough' wouldn't be an advantage having a high res image (12mp) instead of 6mp?
Click to expand...
I am confused about what you want, or more so, why.

EXR-DR via the sensor, in 200%, 400% 800% and 1600% is designed to increase dynamic range by correcting over-exposed highlights. The correction comes by reducing the over-exposure so that it is no longer clipped.

It can only work the other way and expand under-exposed highlights in DR100 mode. According to the manual in that mode EXR will "stretch" the histogram to fill from black to white.

It does appear that DR mode in other percentages 200, 400 and so on, might expand the lowlights, but it seems to do this using the EXR processor engine, rather than the EXR sensor-pairs.

--
Cheers

Trevor G

http://www.computerwyse.com
 
John Carson said:
DR 400 effectively dials in -2 EV for the highlights and DR 800 dials in -3 EV (though the results are then finessed in order to blend the two lots of photosites together). For scenes in which that level of adjustment is needed, this is no reason to expect that HR with -1/3 EV will do much for the highlights — plus it will darken everything else. If you are shooting a DSLR, then you can under-expose dramatically and then lift the shadows in post-processing. With a compact, doing that gives you a noise-fest.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I still wonder if the DR function will be accessible when shooting raw, and/or if a decent raw converter will be able to take advantage of it. I also wonder how well the X10 will fare against an aps-c sensor for highlight or shadow recovery in post.
--
Archiver - Loving Every Image Captured Always
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John Carson said:
DR 400 effectively dials in -2 EV for the highlights and DR 800 dials in -3 EV (though the results are then finessed in order to blend the two lots of photosites together). For scenes in which that level of adjustment is needed, this is no reason to expect that HR with -1/3 EV will do much for the highlights — plus it will darken everything else. If you are shooting a DSLR, then you can under-expose dramatically and then lift the shadows in post-processing. With a compact, doing that gives you a noise-fest.

For lots of shots, of course, you don't need any adjustments for DR: the scene just doesn't have enough contrast to warrant it. For others, a little finessing of the tone curve will do the job. But for high contrast scenes where, by default, photosites are actually blown and blown by a big margin, EV compensation isn't going to do it for you with a compact.

I want to stress that if people do the test you have requested, then it is important to shoot scenes in which the highlights are blown in HR mode when there is 0 EV. It highlights are not blown, then DR mode isn't going to appear to offer much in the comparison.
Click to expand...
Just to add something. In P/A/S/M modes with L size images (so HR in effect), you can set DR up to 400. The restriction is that ISO has to be at least as large as DR.

What happens in this case is that the entire image is underexposed and then selectively brightened. Thus at ISO 400 and DR 400, you have 1/4 the shutter speed for a given aperture, thus protecting highlights (-2 EV effectively). The problem obviously is more noise, plus a loss of dynamic range in shadow areas.

--
john carson
 
Trevor G said:
I am confused about what you want, or more so, why.
Click to expand...
He wants a 12MP image rather than a 6MP image for the sake of resolution, but he would like to preserve highlights by underexposing.

--
john carson
 
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