X10 Conundrum

This image outlines my current head-scratching. (If you don't find other people's head-scratching interesting, turn away now )

In green, is my current camera. The XZ-1.
In yellow, is a camera that really has my eye. The X10.

Behind the X10, in purple, is the new Panasonic GX1, with the 14-42 (28-84 Eq) X zoom.

If I'm going to carry a camera the size of the X10/GX1, looking forward, wouldn't the GX1 be the more sensible step up from the XZ-1? Does the XZ-1 already cover enough ground of the X10, in a smaller package? Aside from the obvious viewfinder, what would I gain from upgrading to the X10?

Confused (but still shooting anyway).

From the XZ1

IQ ?
you won't gain at ISO 400 (but not loose, say "similar")
you will gain at > ISO 800 with usable 1600, even 3200
you will gain EXR mode for more DR or less noise at 6 Mpx
You won't gain in resolution at base ISO

handling
you will gain manual zoom
You will gain the OVF
X10 is thicker, XZ1 to thin (for me, and i haven't big hands)

But they are very comparable cameras so you can use them the same way

GX1 is another step, but are you sure it's the camera you need ?
.
less zoom with the kit, less open, less viwfinder, less appealing
all the plus are already known

I am replacing my XZ-1 with the X10 and I have m43 equipment, so I can speak directly to the benefits of the X10 over both.

Benefits of X10 over XZ-1.

Manual zoom.
Better low light/high iso performance.
Much, much better jpeg processing.
Improved dynamic range with EXR sensor.
Faster speed.
Quicker focus.
Better colors and auto white balance.

Cons: Much thicker. Macro capability is 1 tenth as good as XZ-1.

Benefits of X10 over m43.

There is no high speed zoom available for m43 right now...none...zero...zilch.

With the m43's slow kit lens, the X10 has a 2 f-stop advantage, negating any advantage the larger m43 sensor started out with.

When and if a high speed zoom does become available it will be considerably bigger than the X10, and not have as much focal range (28-70mm or 70-200mm) and one lens alone will cost more than the X10. That one lens will be several times larger than the m43 body.
The Fuji has better colors and auto white balance.

Cons: With a fast pancake prime, the m43 will have more capability. The m43 has the excellent 100-300is available for when you really want to reach out.

One question: I had the impression that, when retracted, the kit lens for the GX1 would still be much bigger than the one in the X10. However, this graphical comparison shows otherwise. Is it really so ?

I've been hooked on the X10 ever since I've seen it for the first time. However, one of the situations in which I intend to use the camera is for parties and shooting my daughter indoors, where the combination of a bigger sensor and the pancake lens sounds very tempting (though a lot more expensive).

My basic needs are for a compact camera (the smaller, the better) with better low-light capability than the one I have (currently I've got a Panny ZS-3 and a Nikon D90), while having easy access to manual controls being also a desirable quality. I've skipped on the LX5 and similar cameras so far because I felt the image quality difference between them and the Panny were not justifying the investment and loss of flexibility / zoom. On the other hand the m43 alternatives looked too big and a little expensive to my taste. I'll keep the ZS-3 and the D90 anyway, so I wonder which of the two cameras above fits better between them - or perhaps I should wait one or two generations anyway ...

Marcos Pinto said:

One question: I had the impression that, when retracted, the kit lens for the GX1 would still be much bigger than the one in the X10. However, this graphical comparison shows otherwise. Is it really so ?

Click to expand...

Shown is the new "X" video lens which retracts into itself, much like P&S zooms. It is a power zoom, optimized for video. I would wait on getting one till Panny has the early teething problems sorted. Many are having issues with the Power OIS.

Marcos Pinto said:

I've been hooked on the X10 ever since I've seen it for the first time. However, one of the situations in which I intend to use the camera is for parties and shooting my daughter indoors, where the combination of a bigger sensor and the pancake lens sounds very tempting (though a lot more expensive).

Click to expand...

Add about $300-$400 for the pancake, depending on whether you can get a decent one used or need to buy a new one.

Marcos Pinto said:

My basic needs are for a compact camera (the smaller, the better) with better low-light capability than the one I have (currently I've got a Panny ZS-3 and a Nikon D90), while having easy access to manual controls being also a desirable quality. I've skipped on the LX5 and similar cameras so far because I felt the image quality difference between them and the Panny were not justifying the investment and loss of flexibility / zoom. On the other hand the m43 alternatives looked too big and a little expensive to my taste. I'll keep the ZS-3 and the D90 anyway, so I wonder which of the two cameras above fits better between them - or perhaps I should wait one or two generations anyway ...

Click to expand...

For low light and m43 you will either have to work with pancakes or have to wait and work with much larger, more expensive zoom lenses (more expensive than the camera body.)

I have both, though I opted for a larger m43 (the GH2) because I view it as a DSLR replacement and even the GH2 is considerably smaller than my 7D. When I go lighter the X10 comes along, or sometimes the S100.

I've toyed with the idea of getting a small m43 body and fast pancake but I hate being tied to primes. I'm spoiled by the wonderful fast L zooms available for Canon.

If you are currently using the XZ-1 like I am the X10 just feels like a better camera. Better control layout and the manual zoom is very nice. The GX1 with the kit lens with feel like it doesn't have enough reach and will feel slow.

If you decide to get the GX1 be prepared to get a second lens like the 20mm f1.7 or you will be frustrated in low light conditions (like indoors with friends).

I have m4/3 and NEX and yes it can replace the X10 but not in one lens.

meanwhile said:

This image outlines my current head-scratching. (If you don't find other people's head-scratching interesting, turn away now )

In green, is my current camera. The XZ-1.
In yellow, is a camera that really has my eye. The X10.

Behind the X10, in purple, is the new Panasonic GX1, with the 14-42 (28-84 Eq) X zoom.

If I'm going to carry a camera the size of the X10/GX1, looking forward, wouldn't the GX1 be the more sensible step up from the XZ-1? Does the XZ-1 already cover enough ground of the X10, in a smaller package? Aside from the obvious viewfinder, what would I gain from upgrading to the X10?

Confused (but still shooting anyway).

Click to expand...

--
terry
http://www.terrybanet.com

Well the XZ-1 can be used with the excellent VF-2. You'll lose that ability. You'll have instead an optical viewfinder with 85% coverage and no display information. How this will effect one's workflow will be a very personal matter. Of course, if you plan to use the LCD most of the time, then it's a non-issue.

Another thing you'll lose is pocketability, if you carry these in a pocket that is. If the XZ-1 was barely pocketable then you have to factor in how that extra thickness is going to affect this aspect.

The thing I've come to realize with cameras is that they are fun to read on but the only way to really know if the camera is for you is to actually try it out. Not just in a store, but to take it out and shoot with it and compare. That's why I have an X10 being shipped to me in the next week or so. The XZ-1 or the X10 will be sold after a 2-3 week battle.

One of the nice things about the X10 is the lens is NOT interchangeable.

This eliminates the temptation to buy lens after lens after lens, which has dogged me for several years (currently I'm a DSLR owner).

As soon as you get going with any interchangeable lens camera you will be lugging around a bag of lenses wherever you go. I've had my fill of that.
--
Tom Schum

Forgot to mention that you'll also lose out on having the neutral density filter built into the XZ-1. It's a features I use with some regularity on the XZ-1. You can use filters on the X10 though, but you'll have to make a separate purchases for the ring adapter and filters.

Daniel Lauring said:

Benefits of X10 over m43.

There is no high speed zoom available for m43 right now...none...zero...zilch.

With the m43's slow kit lens, the X10 has a 2 f-stop advantage, negating any advantage the larger m43 sensor started out with.

Click to expand...

This is very true.

I've been trying hard for a while now to get a high quality pocket camera. The best option so far has been Canon S95, which is small and fast at wide angle. The negatives are slower lens at tele-end and no flash hotshoe. The S95 is as good as an Olympus E-PL3 with the kit zoom lens for most of the focal length range, because of the bright lens of the S95 (I compared them side-by-side). The X10 with it's faster lens should be a match for MFT cameras with slow kit lenses.

Member said:

When and if a high speed zoom does become available it will be considerably bigger than the X10, and not have as much focal range (28-70mm or 70-200mm) and one lens alone will cost more than the X10. That one lens will be several times larger than the m43 body.

Click to expand...

Except, if it's a power zoom (x-series). Then it might be surprisingly compact.

--
pics: http://www.pbase.com/arn

meanwhile said:

If I'm going to carry a camera the size of the X10/GX1, looking forward, wouldn't the GX1 be the more sensible step up from the XZ-1? Does the XZ-1 already cover enough ground of the X10, in a smaller package? Aside from the obvious viewfinder, what would I gain from upgrading to the X10?

Click to expand...

Thanks for the size comparison pic, it was very illustrative.

On top of what Daniel Lauring said here
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=39785426
The X10 and the Panasonic would give you a much better Auto ISO.

The fast lens of the X10 will make it pretty well matched with the micro four thirds cameras (regarding noise/detail), but the GX1 will probably be the best of the MFT bunch. It may not be available until next year, though. The GX1 will be significantly more expensive than the X10 with the powerzoom kit lens and gives you the option of using a fast pancake with additional extra cost.

--
pics: http://www.pbase.com/arn

All good points, thanks everyone.

I guess what I actually need, and will hopefully get (in one way or another) is actually a fixed XZ-1. Apart from one issue (lack of an AEL/AFL button), for me all of the issues it has are software issues, that could be fixed.

Happy with:

• The size is great
• The lens is great
• Focus speed is fast enough
• IQ is solid, better than compact.
• The build is solid and ergonomics work once you add a grip
• Performance is good enough (shooting RAW only with a fast card is pretty quick)
• High ISO is good enough as it's not needed as often (with the 1.8-2.5 lens).
• The flash is dependable and usable.
• ND filter is great

What it needs in firmware (for me):

• Auto ISO fixed. (E.g. I just took a test shot indoors in P-mode, it choose shutter speed 1/2 sec, ISO250. That's mental, when the camera can produce usable ISO800+.)
• Minimum shutter speed setting.
• Video focus hunting fixed.
• Add the current zoom focal length to the displayed info
• Ability to re-focus manually while filming (and even that would not really be necessary if the auto-focus worked as it should).

What would also be nice, but not important to me (as I shoot only RAW):

• JPEG processing fixed, or the ability to turn off/down the noise reduction.

Which is annoying, as if it worked as expected I wouldn't even be thinking about other cameras. That may end up being the XZ-2 if it comes out, but if they don't support the XZ-1 properly, I'd definitely be thinking twice before buying another Olympus camera. (The LX5, for example, has had some great updates that show that Panasonic know how to support a "premium" camera)

I think the X10, unfortunately, is beyond the size of a camera that I will take with me without deciding if I need to each time (which means there'll be times I don't have it when I should). That's a personal thing though.

meanwhile said:

I think the X10, unfortunately, is beyond the size of a camera that I will take with me without deciding if I need to each time (which means there'll be times I don't have it when I should). That's a personal thing though.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but it has been my experience that I do that very thing with ANY size camera! My goal is to simplify On my Oly E30, I rarely use the anything but the 14-54 anyway (REALLY good lens). For me, the X10 represents a much simpler experience that seems to come 'reasonably' close to 4/3s IQ. If I need something wider or longer, I have my E30 and my other lenses.
--
I'm so bright, my father calls me son.

Now that you've judged the quality of my typing, take a look at my photos. . .
http://glenbarrington.smugmug.com/
http://www.jpgmag.com/people/glenbarrington/photos

I would NOT buy that camera with the expectation that any of those improvements will be done. This camera has been out for quite a while (in camera life terms) and I highly doubt you will see any firmware updates like the ones you are looking for.

meanwhile said:

All good points, thanks everyone.

I guess what I actually need, and will hopefully get (in one way or another) is actually a fixed XZ-1. Apart from one issue (lack of an AEL/AFL button), for me all of the issues it has are software issues, that could be fixed.

Happy with:

• The size is great
• The lens is great
• Focus speed is fast enough
• IQ is solid, better than compact.
• The build is solid and ergonomics work once you add a grip
• Performance is good enough (shooting RAW only with a fast card is pretty quick)
• High ISO is good enough as it's not needed as often (with the 1.8-2.5 lens).
• The flash is dependable and usable.
• ND filter is great

What it needs in firmware (for me):

• Auto ISO fixed. (E.g. I just took a test shot indoors in P-mode, it choose shutter speed 1/2 sec, ISO250. That's mental, when the camera can produce usable ISO800+.)
• Minimum shutter speed setting.
• Video focus hunting fixed.
• Add the current zoom focal length to the displayed info
• Ability to re-focus manually while filming (and even that would not really be necessary if the auto-focus worked as it should).

What would also be nice, but not important to me (as I shoot only RAW):

• JPEG processing fixed, or the ability to turn off/down the noise reduction.

Which is annoying, as if it worked as expected I wouldn't even be thinking about other cameras. That may end up being the XZ-2 if it comes out, but if they don't support the XZ-1 properly, I'd definitely be thinking twice before buying another Olympus camera. (The LX5, for example, has had some great updates that show that Panasonic know how to support a "premium" camera)

I think the X10, unfortunately, is beyond the size of a camera that I will take with me without deciding if I need to each time (which means there'll be times I don't have it when I should). That's a personal thing though.

Click to expand...

--
terry
http://www.terrybanet.com

TEBnewyork said:

I would NOT buy that camera with the expectation that any of those improvements will be done. This camera has been out for quite a while (in camera life terms) and I highly doubt you will see any firmware updates like the ones you are looking for.

Click to expand...

Not sure that I would either, but I already own it, so working with what I have.

Glen Barrington said:

Yeah, but it has been my experience that I do that very thing with ANY size camera!

Click to expand...

Agreed Glen, but I'm thinking that if it's something I'm going to um and ah about taking, I may as well be doing that with a small dSLR. The only thing I consider with the XZ-1 is whether I should be in "photo" mode at the event I'm going to, but not it's size (as it fits in my pocket).