Defining 'correct exposure'

As bright as possible without blowing anything.

You can always knock it back later,
This even works to some degree with in-camera or RAW-embedded JPEGs. I usually set the camera's contrast to low, and shoot high ISOs with Canon's HTP, so even if I get a bright, colorless JPEG, simply adjusting the gamma can make it look quite good, if the WB is good.

--
John

 
it comes back to what has always been true - i.e. exposure is correct when mid grey is where the photographer wants it to be.
So we come back the the question I asked and you haven't answered:
where, with respect to what?
or, what do you mean by that:
what is 'mid grey'?
in which thing is it being positioned?

--
Bob
 
There's not really any such thing as correct exposure. All we can say is that one exposure is more optimal than another, for whatever reason.

However, I think the concept of correct exposure is an important stake in the ground for beginners, starting with using (and initially trusting) the camera's meter and later on moving to more creative exposure and appreciating the best exposure for a given situation.

--
Regards
J

Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/jasonhindleuk
Blog: http://jasonhindle.wordpress.com



Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jason_hindle

Gear in profile
 
Correct exposure is when mid grey in the image is exactly where the photographer wants it to be.
Assuming canned processing (eg, cellphone camera), otherwise mid grey is where it is placed in processing (of course, if you want to preserve detail in the mid grey of scene, you create an exposure range that allows that).
I must admit I have some difficulty in understanding you. However, let me explain. It has nothing to do with processing being 'canned' or not. Exposure is correct when mid grey is where the photographer wants it to be.
You can argue that a photographer might want to place mid grey let's say x stops below saturation in the raw file. But your next sentence let's me suspect you did not mean placement in the raw file.
Post processing allows you some latitude to adjust,
Not some, a huge amount of latitude. If you find the mid grey in a metered Nikon D7000 ISO 3200 image acceptable, you can take an ISO 100 shot from the same camera with the same f-stop and shutter speed, which with default processing (eg, camera jpeg) will place a scene five stops brighter than the ISO 3200 shot at mid grey in the final image, and process the raw file of the ISO shot to place a scene at mid grey in the final image, that was five stops darker.
I would not call five stops 'some' latitude.
what has always been true - i.e. exposure is correct when mid grey is where the photographer wants it to be.
Take the same raw data (ie, the same exposure) and process it like the D7000 would process it if set to ISO 100 and process it like the D7000 would process it if set to ISO 3200, and you will get very different images. What places the mid grey here, is the processing, not the exposure.
 
Correct exposure is when mid grey in the image is exactly where the photographer wants it to be.
Assuming canned processing (eg, cellphone camera), otherwise mid grey is where it is placed in processing (of course, if you want to preserve detail in the mid grey of scene, you create an exposure range that allows that).
I must admit I have some difficulty in understanding you. However, let me explain. It has nothing to do with processing being 'canned' or not. Exposure is correct when mid grey is where the photographer wants it to be.
You can argue that a photographer might want to place mid grey let's say x stops below saturation in the raw file. But your next sentence let's me suspect you did not mean placement in the raw file.
I think it's clear to any photographer what I mean.
Post processing allows you some latitude to adjust,
Not some, a huge amount of latitude. If you find the mid grey in a metered Nikon D7000 ISO 3200 image acceptable, you can take an ISO 100 shot from the same camera with the same f-stop and shutter speed, which with default processing (eg, camera jpeg) will place a scene five stops brighter than the ISO 3200 shot at mid grey in the final image, and process the raw file of the ISO shot to place a scene at mid grey in the final image, that was five stops darker.
I would not call five stops 'some' latitude.
It doesn't really matter what you call 5 stops of latitude, it's still a finite amount. When you have a finite amount of latitude, you can clip highlights or block shadows, even with a D7000. So getting your exposure where you want is still important.
what has always been true - i.e. exposure is correct when mid grey is where the photographer wants it to be.
Take the same raw data (ie, the same exposure) and process it like the D7000 would process it if set to ISO 100 and process it like the D7000 would process it if set to ISO 3200, and you will get very different images. What places the mid grey here, is the processing, not the exposure.
And if you don't have a Nikon D7000? Does you edifice remain standing?

Your problem is you're being pedantic, and want to use the 'scientific' sense of exposure. Photographers use the term in another way, as well you know. If you want to change how photographers use the term then OK, but you'll be doomed to arguing on internet fora rather than getting anywhere as a photographer (assuming of course that you want to).
 
FrankyM wrote:
exposure is correct when mid grey is where the photographer wants it to be.
When you have a finite amount of latitude, you can clip highlights or block shadows, even with a D7000. So getting your exposure where you want is still important.
Well, you should always shoot at the lowest possible ISO (in regard to read noise in your important image areas) to get the largest possible DOF to minimise highlight clipping. Which essentially means you expose for highlight protection and to balance noise against blur (low DOF, shake, motion). So, yes you expose with considerations about bright areas and general noise, but you do NOT expose for a mid grey.
And if you don't have a Nikon D7000? Does you edifice remain standing?
I don't have a D7000, I have a D3. It has a flat read noise curve from about ISO 800 upwards, under artificial light (stage light, conference halls, most somewhat evenly-lit apartments), I set exposure to my DOF and shake limits (ie, I shoot in M-mode) and mainly switch between ISO 800 and ISO 1600 depending on roughly how much light there is in relation to my target for f-stop and shutter speed. For example, I might shoot with a 50 mm f/1.4 lens wide open at 1/80 s only stopping down further if I need more DOF.
Your problem is you're being pedantic, and want to use the 'scientific' sense of exposure. Photographers use the term in another way, as well you know.
So, whenever you use the word 'exposure' you actually mean exposure + image processing? Is that in your estimation what photographers generally mean when they say exposure?
If you want to change how photographers use the term then OK, but you'll be doomed to arguing on internet fora rather than getting anywhere as a photographer
Well, arguing on internet fora has taught me a lot about how cameras works. But you naturally only learn if you are open to new ideas.
 
Blasphemy !
Verily, I say I unto you, f-stoppers and ISO fiddlers,
you're all going straight to the warm place.
Repent ! Come back to the one true path of Bright and Raw
or wander forever in the wilderness of semantics and JPEG fundamentalism !

The big bloke gave us RAW to lead us out of the hands
of our oppressors, the camera manufacturers, hallelujah !

Show your gratitude, strayers, you, who now control your own stuff,
lest he take it all back and fills your world with the pestilence
of AUTO forever.
--

 
Blasphemy !
Verily, I say I unto you, f-stoppers and ISO fiddlers,
you're all going straight to the warm place.
Repent ! Come back to the one true path of Bright and Raw
or wander forever in the wilderness of semantics and JPEG fundamentalism !

The big bloke gave us RAW to lead us out of the hands
of our oppressors, the camera manufacturers, hallelujah !

Show your gratitude, strayers, you, who now control your own stuff,
lest he take it all back and fills your world with the pestilence
of AUTO forever.
[Belches] Yeah, OK. Whatever.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
A photographer's exposure is never over. Nor is it under. He exposes precisely what he means to.
...
Yes hi Daniel,

I think early on in the story, he was known as "Gandalf the 18% Grey" , and then later on he became "Gandalf the 100% White". :)

Chris
 
FrankyM wrote:
exposure is correct when mid grey is where the photographer wants it to be.
When you have a finite amount of latitude, you can clip highlights or block shadows, even with a D7000. So getting your exposure where you want is still important.
Well, you should always shoot at the lowest possible ISO (in regard to read noise in your important image areas) to get the largest possible DOF to minimise highlight clipping. Which essentially means you expose for highlight protection and to balance noise against blur (low DOF, shake, motion). So, yes you expose with considerations about bright areas and general noise, but you do NOT expose for a mid grey.
You avoid the point by rambling on with something which makes little sense. DOF (large or small) does not minimise highlight clipping. What are "considerations about bright areas"? Sounds to me like you're trying to avoid saying that you meter. Or are you going to claim you don't use metering? Perhaps you could show some photos...

And BTW, I expose to set mid grey where I want it and so do you. This does not preclude me from taking meter readings from the highlights or shadows.
And if you don't have a Nikon D7000? Does you edifice remain standing?
I don't have a D7000, I have a D3. It has a flat read noise curve from about ISO 800 upwards, under artificial light (stage light, conference halls, most somewhat evenly-lit apartments), I set exposure to my DOF and shake limits (ie, I shoot in M-mode) and mainly switch between ISO 800 and ISO 1600 depending on roughly how much light there is in relation to my target for f-stop and shutter speed. For example, I might shoot with a 50 mm f/1.4 lens wide open at 1/80 s only stopping down further if I need more DOF.
So let's analyse what you do (it sounds a rather limited set of scenarios, but if that's all you do...). You choose aperture, shutter speed and ISO, you don't say how you come to this particular combination ( 'rough' considerations about bright areas perhaps? - doesn't the D3's metering system work? ). Whatever the reason, the outcome will be one of two possibilities in the resulting image,

a) mid grey is where you want it to be and therefore you have a 'correct' exposure and you will not need to correct it in PP, or

b) mid grey is not where you want it to be and therefore you have an 'incorrect exposure' which you will correct in PP (assuming, of course, that you have avoided clipping wanted highlights or blocking wanted shadow detail). It should, of course, be obvious that if you have the latitude to 'correct' in PP, then you could have gotten a 'correct' exposure in camera had you tried.
Your problem is you're being pedantic, and want to use the 'scientific' sense of exposure. Photographers use the term in another way, as well you know.
So, whenever you use the word 'exposure' you actually mean exposure + image processing? Is that in your estimation what photographers generally mean when they say exposure?
No I don't, I mean the amount of light captured for a given ISO speed - the exposure triangle.
If you want to change how photographers use the term then OK, but you'll be doomed to arguing on internet fora rather than getting anywhere as a photographer
Well, arguing on internet fora has taught me a lot about how cameras works. But you naturally only learn if you are open to new ideas.
It's not a question of learning but what you learn...
 
FrankyM wrote:
exposure is correct when mid grey is where the photographer wants it to be.
When you have a finite amount of latitude, you can clip highlights or block shadows, even with a D7000. So getting your exposure where you want is still important.
Well, you should always shoot at the lowest possible ISO (in regard to read noise in your important image areas) to get the largest possible DOF to minimise highlight clipping. Which essentially means you expose for highlight protection and to balance noise against blur (low DOF, shake, motion). So, yes you expose with considerations about bright areas and general noise, but you do NOT expose for a mid grey.
You avoid the point by rambling on with something which makes little sense.
Actually, it makes a lot of sense.
DOF (large or small) does not minimise highlight clipping.
Do you not think? At a set shutter speed (set usually by shake considerations) more DOF equals less exposure equals less highlight clipping.
What are "considerations about bright areas"? Sounds to me like you're trying to avoid saying that you meter. Or are you going to claim you don't use metering?
He didn't say anything about metering, although a meter can be helpful determining where is the onset of highlight clipping. (only helpful, unless you have a very sophisticated meter or take the care to do some well thought out spot metering)
Perhaps you could show some photos...
How would they tell you anything more?
And BTW, I expose to set mid grey where I want it and so do you.
He just said he didn't.
This does not preclude me from taking meter readings from the highlights or shadows.
Or, alternatively, you could meter the highlight to avoid clipping and let the 'mid grey' sot itself out. Personally, I find mid grey of very little interest when thinking about exposure. It is the highlights and shadows that you need to think about, and which ones depending on what you are trying to achieve. The precise exposure of the mid greys isn't at all critical really
So let's analyse what you do (it sounds a rather limited set of scenarios, but if that's all you do...). You choose aperture, shutter speed and ISO, you don't say how you come to this particular combination ( 'rough' considerations about bright areas perhaps? - doesn't the D3's metering system work? ). Whatever the reason, the outcome will be one of two possibilities in the resulting image,
How about saying he chooses the aperture and shutter speed given his DOF and blur requirements (what he said) and then chooses ISO as he says above.
a) mid grey is where you want it to be and therefore you have a 'correct' exposure and you will not need to correct it in PP, or

b) mid grey is not where you want it to be and therefore you have an 'incorrect exposure' which you will correct in PP (assuming, of course, that you have avoided clipping wanted highlights or blocking wanted shadow detail).
The mid grey is nowhere until processing is done, and he did say he wasn't concerned about it (as I am not). So your definition of 'correct exposure' can't be according to his method. On the other hand, he might end up with an exposure 'correct' according to your method, but that would be coincidence and of little interest to him.
It should, of course, be obvious that if you have the latitude to 'correct' in PP, then you could have gotten a 'correct' exposure in camera had you tried.
This makes no sense. There is no whereabouts of 'mid grey' until processg, so he would be adjusting it in P, not PP.
It's not a question of learning but what you learn...
Exactly, and if you have learned this 'exposure triangle' then it closes your mind to further learning. It is a cognitive dead end.

--
Bob
 
at the lowest possible ISO (in regard to read noise (...)) to get the largest possible DOF to minimise highlight clipping. Which essentially means you expose for highlight protection and to balance noise against blur (low DOF, shake, motion). So, yes you expose with considerations about bright areas and general noise, but you do NOT expose for a mid grey.
You avoid the point by rambling on with something which makes little sense. DOF does not minimise highlight clipping.
That was a typo, I meant DR. The lower the ISO, the higher the DR. But since a significant portion of cameras have increasing read noise with decreasing ISO, you have to balance DR (or highlight protection) against noise in the darker areas. Essentially you can have with these cameras for a given exposure more highlight protection (lower ISO setting) or lower dark area noise (higher ISO setting).

But that is a finer point. In a sense, it is the exception from the rule that exposure is 'only' about balancing maximising exposure vs. highlight clipping. But trying to explain you the exception before you have internalised the rule is highly unlikely to work, so maybe better disregard this aspect for the time being.
What are "considerations about bright areas"? Sounds to me like you're trying to avoid saying that you meter. Or are you going to claim you don't use metering?
Now, what could I have meant with "considerations about bright area"? Since we have been talking about highlight clipping, maybe I was just rephrasing things...
And BTW, I expose to set mid grey where I want it and so do you. This does not preclude me from taking meter readings from the highlights or shadows.
You know full well that if you blow a highlight, it is gone. But if your mid grey does not land exactly at {128} it is a piece of cake to move it there without any real impact on highlight clipping. Why would you thus care more about placing the mid grey during exposure than selecting exactly which part of scene is clipped? You cannot place mid grey exactly where you want it and clip exactly a chosen amount of highlights by optimising exposure, moving the mid grey moves your clipping point. Thus shouldn't your first consideration when choosing exposure be what highlight get clipped and which don't? And if noise is more (or equally) important than highlight clipping, shouldn't your first consideration be about maximising exposure (and thus minimising photon shot noise)?

Why would would you prioritise something you can change in post over something you cannot change in post (highlight clipping & noise)?
So let's analyse what you do. You choose aperture, shutter speed and ISO, you don't say how you come to this particular combination ( 'rough' considerations about bright areas perhaps? - doesn't the D3's metering system work? ).
The metering system gives me a rough first shot of what exposure I set (though I know roughly what the meter will tell me in common light scenarios), the histogram is the next step. It tells me about highlight clipping (not absolutely perfectly but UniWB helps with that).
a) mid grey is where you want it to be and therefore you have a 'correct' exposure and you will not need to correct it in PP, or

b) mid grey is not where you want it to be and therefore you have an 'incorrect exposure' which you will correct in PP (assuming, of course, that you have avoided clipping wanted highlights or blocking wanted shadow detail).
I tend to white-balance and 'exposure'-correct every single photo I 'publish' (ie, show to others), though I try 'copy' WB settings to sets of pictures if I know that the lighting was constant, though I still am constantly tempted to fine-tune it. 'Exposure'-correction usually means 'exposure', brightness and contrast slider, though often one or two of them will do.
So, whenever you use the word 'exposure' you actually mean exposure + image processing? Is that in your estimation what photographers generally mean when they say exposure?
No I don't, I mean the amount of light captured for a given ISO speed - the exposure triangle.
Do you really believe that changing the ISO setting changes the amount of light being captured? Light is captured by the photodiodes in every pixel, the signal is then read out, optionally amplified before being converted into a digital signal. Changing the ISO setting does in no way affect how the light creates charge in the photodiodes.

Moreover, since changing the ISO setting is just another fancy way of instructing the camera (and indirectly the raw processor) how to process the data read off the sensor, you actually do mean exposure + image processing.

You just have a hard time (like a lot of people), to accept that changing the ISO setting is mainly just about changing how the sensor data are processed into an image. The ISO setting has nothing to do with exposure (except that changing it will cause your camera to suggest you a different exposure) unless you take the creative position that exposure is everything that affects what data comes out of the A/D converter.
It's not a question of learning but what you learn...
So, what new have you learned about digital sensors in the last couple of years?
 
Correct exposure is the range of exposures that allow to capture the key elements of the scene and to manipulate the tonal and colour ranges of the captured scene during the preparation for presentation, preserving image quality at satisfactory level.

--
http://www.libraw.org/
 
at the lowest possible ISO (in regard to read noise (...)) to get the largest possible DOF to minimise highlight clipping.
-SNIP
You avoid the point by rambling on with something which makes little sense. DOF does not minimise highlight clipping.
That was a typo, I meant DR. The lower the ISO, the higher the DR.
-SNIP.

A typo heh?
But that is a finer point. In a sense, it is the exception from the rule that exposure is 'only' about balancing maximising exposure vs. highlight clipping. But trying to explain you the exception before you have internalised the rule is highly unlikely to work, so maybe better disregard this aspect for the time being.
Nothing like a little arrogance when you're floundering...
What are "considerations about bright areas"? Sounds to me like you're trying to avoid saying that you meter. Or are you going to claim you don't use metering?
Now, what could I have meant with "considerations about bright area"? Since we have been talking about highlight clipping, maybe I was just rephrasing things...
Well you tell me. I can think of many things but it seems you can't even manage one. I wonder why?
And BTW, I expose to set mid grey where I want it and so do you. This does not preclude me from taking meter readings from the highlights or shadows.
You know full well that if you blow a highlight, it is gone. But if your mid grey does not land exactly at {128} it is a piece of cake to move it there without any real impact on highlight clipping.
-SNIP

You simply don't get it do you? You are so intent on trying to argue with me that you just aren't able to think clearly. I assumed that as a photographer you would be able to comprehend, obviously my mistake. You are confusing the priority given to metering different parts of the scene with my premise. You give priority according to what you want to achieve, but the end result sets the mid grey point to where you want it.
Why would would you prioritise something you can change in post over something you cannot change in post (highlight clipping & noise)?
As I said, you have understood nothing and persist in your own interpretation of what I'm saying even though I explained it clearly below.
So let's analyse what you do. You choose aperture, shutter speed and ISO, you don't say how you come to this particular combination ( 'rough' considerations about bright areas perhaps? - doesn't the D3's metering system work? ).
The metering system gives me a rough first shot of what exposure I set
  • SNIP.
a) mid grey is where you want it to be and therefore you have a 'correct' exposure and you will not need to correct it in PP, or

b) mid grey is not where you want it to be and therefore you have an 'incorrect exposure' which you will correct in PP (assuming, of course, that you have avoided clipping wanted highlights or blocking wanted shadow detail).
I tend to white-balance and 'exposure'-correct every single photo I 'publish' (ie, show to others), though I try 'copy' WB settings to sets of pictures if I know that the lighting was constant, though I still am constantly tempted to fine-tune it. 'Exposure'-correction usually means 'exposure', brightness and contrast slider, though often one or two of them will do.
So you totally ignore what I wrote above to ramble on again about your amateurish work flow which has absolutely no bearing on the question.
So, whenever you use the word 'exposure' you actually mean exposure + image processing? Is that in your estimation what photographers generally mean when they say exposure?
No I don't, I mean the amount of light captured for a given ISO speed - the exposure triangle.
Do you really believe that changing the ISO setting changes the amount of light being captured? Light is captured by the photodiodes in every pixel, the signal is then read out, optionally amplified before being converted into a digital signal. Changing the ISO setting does in no way affect how the light creates charge in the photodiodes.
Photodiodes? Really? I'm always amazed by how many physicists and engineers are 'created' on the Internet.

Try reading what I said again, but this time connect your brain before.
Moreover, since changing the ISO setting is just another fancy way of instructing the camera (and indirectly the raw processor) how to process the data read off the sensor, you actually do mean exposure + image processing.

You just have a hard time (like a lot of people), to accept that changing the ISO setting is mainly just about changing how the sensor data are processed into an image. The ISO setting has nothing to do with exposure (except that changing it will cause your camera to suggest you a different exposure) unless you take the creative position that exposure is everything that affects what data comes out of the A/D converter.
I have a hard time listening to internet 'experts' whose only knowledge base is Wikipedia and internet fora. I also have a hard time discussing anything with people who cannot (or more likely will not) understand the written word.
It's not a question of learning but what you learn...
So, what new have you learned about digital sensors in the last couple of years?
I've learnt that there are lots of 'experts', like yourself, who have no real experience in engineering but who believe the anonymity of the internet allows them to pass themselves off as knowledgeable.

Finally, there are a number of people on this forum who constantly tell others how they should go about photography but, like yourself, provide no evidence to show that they even take photographs, much less anything that would suggest expertise.

I shall not bother further with this puerile discussion.
 
You know full well that if you blow a highlight, it is gone. But if your mid grey does not land exactly at {128} it is a piece of cake to move it there without any real impact on highlight clipping.
-SNIP

You simply don't get it do you? You are so intent on trying to argue with me that you just aren't able to think clearly. I assumed that as a photographer you would be able to comprehend, obviously my mistake. You are confusing the priority given to metering different parts of the scene with my premise. You give priority according to what you want to achieve, but the end result sets the mid grey point to where you want it.
It's you not getting it. You are so fixated on the idea that the purpose of adjusting exposure is to position 'mid grey' in the output image that you haven't worked out that there are plenty of people who really don't see exposure adjustment as positioning mid-grey in the output image at all .
--
Bob
 
A typo heh?
Nothing like a little arrogance when you're floundering...
Well you tell me. I can think of many things but it seems you can't even manage one. I wonder why?
You simply don't get it do you? You are so intent on trying to argue with me that you just aren't able to think clearly. I assumed that as a photographer you would be able to comprehend, obviously my mistake. You are confusing the priority given to metering different parts of the scene with my premise. You give priority according to what you want to achieve, but the end result sets the mid grey point to where you want it.
As I said, you have understood nothing and persist in your own interpretation of what I'm saying even though I explained it clearly below.
So you totally ignore what I wrote above to ramble on again about your amateurish work flow which has absolutely no bearing on the question.
Photodiodes? Really? I'm always amazed by how many physicists and engineers are 'created' on the Internet.
I have a hard time listening to internet 'experts' whose only knowledge base is Wikipedia and internet fora. I also have a hard time discussing anything with people who cannot (or more likely will not) understand the written word.
I've learnt that there are lots of 'experts', like yourself, who have no real experience in engineering but who believe the anonymity of the internet allows them to pass themselves off as knowledgeable.

Finally, there are a number of people on this forum who constantly tell others how they should go about photography but, like yourself, provide no evidence to show that they even take photographs, much less anything that would suggest expertise.

I shall not bother further with this puerile discussion.
Above you find your last post in full. Is there any actual discussion of the topic at hand, exposure, in it? Except for that single statement that the end result [of setting exposure] sets the mid grey point to where you want it , I cannot really see anything.

Your main argument in this whole subthread seems to be that a good photographer is able to set mid grey using exposure alone. But you provide no practical or technical argument why that would be preferable.
 
...like correct behaviour; a friend of many, but mostly boring and dull.
 

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