The G3 and GH2 are not an RF substitute

I fully understand they're not a substitute for an RF style body. What I don't understand is the mania for pocketability.

As for the EVF, I'm not sure Panasonic's EVF will fit flush. I can't imagine they make it stick out as far as they do (especially on the G3) just because they feel like it.

If Panny makes a compact RF style body with EVF I might be interested, but not because I'll carry it around in my pocket. Most of the year I don't wear anything with a pocket big enough for even a GF3.
 
I fully understand they're not a substitute for an RF style body. What I don't understand is the mania for pocketability.
What I think is important about pocket ability is that you (well, many of us) always have our pockets with us. So if a camera is pocketable, the idea is you can bring it with you in many situations you won't want to bring a camera bag. Out on dog walks, trips to the store, whatever. Usually when I see a great opportunity for a shot, I don't have my camera with me. Pocketability, even if it's only with the 14/17/20/14-42mm X lenses, means I'd have my camera with me much more often. And the best camera is the one you have with you.

That's kind of the whole idea of Micro 4/3rds isn't it? A smaller camera is used more often, so we trade off a bit of image quality for size advantage. Definitely not a cost advantage, thats for sure.
As for the EVF, I'm not sure Panasonic's EVF will fit flush. I can't imagine they make it stick out as far as they do (especially on the G3) just because they feel like it.

If Panny makes a compact RF style body with EVF I might be interested, but not because I'll carry it around in my pocket. Most of the year I don't wear anything with a pocket big enough for even a GF3.
I'd be interested, not because I'd normally carry it in a pocket, but because I could. Sometimes I just carry my GH2 with me on my Loopit. But here in Portland, we get a lot of rain, and it'd be nice if I could just drop it in my pocket when that happens. Or all those times when bringing a camera is kind of borderline, is it important? If it were truly (comfortably) pocketable, it moves the bar, and you end up bringing it with you more and more.

I had a DSLR for a brief time, but I found I just didn't use it unless it was a "photographic" outing. Thats what I like about m4/3, it doesn't have to be an outing that revolves around photography, I can just bring it with me. If it were pocketable, even more outings would be that way.

Rob
 
The only statement on the philosophy of micro four thirds from Olympus or Panasonic that I could find, is this from Olympus:

http://www.olympus-global.com/en/corc/profile/story/index4.html
  • Olympus was able to introduce an extremely compact interchangeable lens system digital cameras incorporating all-new concepts on the back of the practical application of the Micro Four Thirds System. It adheres to the basic concept underlying the Olympus Pen, specifically, units that are small, lightweight and easy for anyone to use.
Nothing in that about pocketability.

There a a number of references to the pocketability of compact cameras, including:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/technology/personaltech/08basics.html
  • The Micro Four Thirds camera fits the space between bulky, complicated digital S.L.R.’s and pocketable user-friendly compact shooters.
Does anyone know of a statement from Panasonic or Olympus that indicates they are aiming for true pocketability?

If not, why complain about something (lack of pocketability) that isn't part of the manufacturers' plan?

However, note this from Pentax:

http://www.iaskla.com/2011/06/30/pentax-claims-world&#8217 ;s-smallest-and-lightest-interchangeable-lens-camera-crown/
  • Pentax has announced the first pocket-friendly interchangeable lens camera to sport its new bayonet lens mount [Q mount].
Regards,

Richard

--
"Careful photographers run their own tests." - Fred Picker
 
Indeed. Since I have a Pen I am shooting every day or at least 4 times as much as with my earlier dSLR. So it's the whole point.

OTH if I had a built in EVF in a RF Form Factor I'd use it again 4 times as much.

So if one has to repeat this self evidence, it's only because one preaches to people who cannot abandon dSLR-centric habits. Panny was cynical enough to build lines of product based on that, Oly didn't.

Sony and soon Fuji will demonstrate how the faux-dSLR FF is indulging to (ex) dSLR owners, but has nothing to do with the future of mirrorless cameras.

Lack of built in EVF in Pens is also a sign of obsolescence of design.

These errors might be paid bitterly when the new mirrorless brands and models with built in EVF and RF FF will go onstream.

Is it so difficult to understand? 'What is in 'extreme compactness' definition of m4/3 so dificult to understand that it can't be related to 'pocketability'? LOL

Am.
--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
 
This. Holy crap, the silliness of the arguments about 'pocketability'. The whole point is that a RF-style body is more compact than a DLSR-style body, regardless of where you try to stash it. And for many people that's the difference between taking the camera with your or leaving it at home.

The rest of the argument seems pretty straightforward.
Indeed. Since I have a Pen I am shooting every day or at least 4 times as much as with my earlier dSLR. So it's the whole point.

OTH if I had a built in EVF in a RF Form Factor I'd use it again 4 times as much.

So if one has to repeat this self evidence, it's only because one preaches to people who cannot abandon dSLR-centric habits. Panny was cynical enough to build lines of product based on that, Oly didn't.

Sony and soon Fuji will demonstrate how the faux-dSLR FF is indulging to (ex) dSLR owners, but has nothing to do with the future of mirrorless cameras.

Lack of built in EVF in Pens is also a sign of obsolescence of design.

These errors might be paid bitterly when the new mirrorless brands and models with built in EVF and RF FF will go onstream.

Is it so difficult to understand? 'What is in 'extreme compactness' definition of m4/3 so dificult to understand that it can't be related to 'pocketability'? LOL

Am.
--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
 
I'm LOL. There are pluses and minues to every body style, and a RF style isn't a panacea to all your photographic issues. Frankly, the RF body is even more antique than the SLR style body, and every bit as much designed around the requirements of film chambers as is the SLR body style. I'd like to see the manufacturers really think outside the box, and come up with some designs that can really be operated, almost totally, at eye level. The existing RF style bodies require you to take the camera away from your eye at least as much as their DSLR style counterparts, and the non-EVF bodies are even worse in that regard. If you're constantly poking at a touch screen, you're not looking at the world where your subjects are. With the EVF capable of displaying everything the rear LCD can display, why do I need to take the camera away from my eye to change WB, focus points, AF mode, etc.? An RF style body doesn't solve the anachronisms we've inherited from the film world, it just repackages them a bit.

You call Panasonic cynical, I say they're meeting a market demand that Oly isn't. To me, a camera without an eye level VF is little more than a toy, and a clip-on EVF is worse than that. You lose the advantage of small size, and have to deal with a crappy attachment that's always falling off. Watching people trying to compose on the LCD screen in bright daylight is truly funny, as is watching them trying to get steady pics with their arms cantilevered out in front of them.

Your implied condescension of those who don't share your mania for a "pocketable" camera with EVF is simply rude, and demonstrates a loack of understanding that not everyone has the same viewpoint as you.

Can you possibly recognize that one size doesn't fit all, and not everyone wants the same thing you do?

Finally, I repeat: There's not a single m43 camera made today, with or without EVF, that will fit in any of my pockets 8 months out of the year, so the arguments about the reasons for wanting a RF format m43 camera are meaningless, as it won't fit in my pockets either. EVF or not, if it's too big to fit in my pocket it's too big, and I'm not willing to put up with the trade-offs today's "small" bodies require. If I've got to carry it on my shoulder, around my neck, in a bag, or in my hand, then the G3, and even the GH2, are plenty small. A GF3 won't fit in my pockets, so it offers little real advantage in size compared to a G3, and very real disadvantages in ergonomics.

Do you walk around wearing pants with kangaroo pouches for pockets or something?
Indeed. Since I have a Pen I am shooting every day or at least 4 times as much as with my earlier dSLR. So it's the whole point.

OTH if I had a built in EVF in a RF Form Factor I'd use it again 4 times as much.

So if one has to repeat this self evidence, it's only because one preaches to people who cannot abandon dSLR-centric habits. Panny was cynical enough to build lines of product based on that, Oly didn't.

Sony and soon Fuji will demonstrate how the faux-dSLR FF is indulging to (ex) dSLR owners, but has nothing to do with the future of mirrorless cameras.

Lack of built in EVF in Pens is also a sign of obsolescence of design.

These errors might be paid bitterly when the new mirrorless brands and models with built in EVF and RF FF will go onstream.

Is it so difficult to understand? 'What is in 'extreme compactness' definition of m4/3 so dificult to understand that it can't be related to 'pocketability'? LOL

Am.
--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
 
See the way the EV sticks out in the back? Have you ever tried to slide a camera with that unnecessary protrusion in and out of a small camera bag or coat pocket?

For the record, I own a GH2, and it's a perfectly good camera. If Panasonic were to move that excellent EV over into the upper left-hand corner of the body, and lose the protrusion in the rear (and front), they could sell me, and I daresay a lot of other people, a second body.

But the G3 has that same flaw, not to mention fewer external controls, and a style that can only be called uninspired. That is why the G3 and GH2 are not a substitute for what we're after.
Yeah, lets be honest here, you can come up with all sorts of reasons why a small 1cm protrusion on the back of the camera would make it difficult to put it in a bag while having a 4-8cm protrusion on the front of the camera doesn't, but it feels more like you just like the overall look and style of the NEX7 better.

If you look at Panasonic's EVF module it's pretty damn big, no way they could use it in an NEX7 shaped body. They could conceivably use the same unit as the GF1 external EVF, but I'd rather no EVF at all than that thing taking up space on the body!



Panasonic are probably years away from being able to match the component size of the NEX7 and no amount of uninspired posts complaining about it on here will make it appear any quicker. Fact is right now you can get a camera that's a little bigger than the NEX7 with an EVF or a little smaller than the NEX7 without.
 
Yeah, lets be honest here, you can come up with all sorts of reasons why a small 1cm protrusion on the back of the camera would make it difficult to put it in a bag while having a 4-8cm protrusion on the front of the camera doesn't, but it feels more like you just like the overall look and style of the NEX7 better.
Reasons:
  • the G3 viewfinder protrudes 15mm by my measurement, not 10mm
  • the viewfinder increases the depth of the G3 with an X kit lens from a little over 60mm to about 75mm - an increase of almost 25%. It wastes much of the size advantage of the new lens.
  • grips on the front of the camera share the same dimension with the lens and are therefore irrelevant
  • Sony has shown that the viewfinder can be made much more compact, whetting people's appetites.
If the width or height of the G3 were 20-25% larger you can bet that even the people who are suggesting it would complain. So why should we be happy with that extra degree of thickness? We'd like to see better from Panasonic, is there something wrong with that?
 
Panasonic are probably years away from being able to match the component size of the NEX7 and no amount of uninspired posts complaining about it on here will make it appear any quicker. Fact is right now you can get a camera that's a little bigger than the NEX7 with an EVF or a little smaller than the NEX7 without.
This is the first rational argument I hear. That might well be. And mind you, I am quite happy to use an external VF. Barnack's early Leicas had it, and so the Bessas.

However it's a matter of useability. Not only the NEX7, but also the ILS successor of the X100, and a new Ricoh/Pentax ILS, not to mention Samsung which is far more streamlined than the Gx cameras.

If Joe Public has to choose between a RF without EVF and one with built in EVF, guess what?

That design debate was settled a century ago by Leica, so it's strategic that O&P do progress in component integration or miniaturisation, they are not alone anymore in mirrorless.

Am.

--
Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amalric
 
The film SLRS, at least the one I had (Pentax ME Super) was about the same form factor as the E-Pn's, except for the OVF.
I has always bothered me that yesterday's full frame cameras (35mm) and lenses are smaller than today's half-frame (APS-c) cameras & equivalent lenses. I am thinking of cameras like the Oly OM1, Nikon FE2, Pentax ME Super, etc.
What I don't understand is the mania for pocketability.
For me the issue is not pocketability (though that would be nice). It is about being able to realistically have the camera with me at all times, whether I am out shopping, in the office, etc. For me, all DSLRs and all M4/3 fail this test.
 
take an ep3, pull out the flash unit, replace it with an evf, bundle a flash like on the epl3/epm1, Bobs your uncle!

don't forget quite an amount of the bulk in the external units is taken by the lever/flip unit, the mount and the casing.
 
You are, actually, since you're not talking about a situation that exists in reality, but rather imaginary 'what ifs'.

Good luck with that.
You're kidding. People actually care about the 'style' of a camera not being 'inspiring'?

LOL. That is just absurd.
Really? Just absurd, eh?

So if you had a choice between two cameras with exactly the same sensor, controls, and menus, they both used the same lenses, but one was designed like a Leica M9 and the other like a boxy lump of pink plastic, it would be a tossup for you?

Really? Now who's being absurd?

David
--
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows
--Epictetus
 
You are, actually, since you're not talking about a situation that exists in reality, but rather imaginary 'what ifs'.

Good luck with that.
Thanks! And good luck to you in your quest to find a camera that doesn't have a style as part of its design.

David
You're kidding. People actually care about the 'style' of a camera not being 'inspiring'?

LOL. That is just absurd.
Really? Just absurd, eh?

So if you had a choice between two cameras with exactly the same sensor, controls, and menus, they both used the same lenses, but one was designed like a Leica M9 and the other like a boxy lump of pink plastic, it would be a tossup for you?

Really? Now who's being absurd?

David
--
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows
--Epictetus
--
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows
--Epictetus
 
I'm LOL. There are pluses and minues to every body style, and a RF style isn't a panacea to all your photographic issues. Frankly, the RF body is even more antique than the SLR style body, and every bit as much designed around the requirements of film chambers as is the SLR body style. I'd like to see the manufacturers really think outside the box, and come up with some designs that can really be operated, almost totally, at eye level. The existing RF style bodies require you to take the camera away from your eye at least as much as their DSLR style counterparts, and the non-EVF bodies are even worse in that regard. If you're constantly poking at a touch screen, you're not looking at the world where your subjects are. With the EVF capable of displaying everything the rear LCD can display, why do I need to take the camera away from my eye to change WB, focus points, AF mode, etc.? An RF style body doesn't solve the anachronisms we've inherited from the film world, it just repackages them a bit.
-snip-

Exactly. In fact, the RF viewfinder was located at the top left because the focusing mechanism required it to be at one extreme corner or the other - and since about 2/3 of the world's population show right-eye dominance, it made sense to put it on the left. Of course, the other 1/3 (left-eye dominant) had to make do with the camera blocking the rest of their face when holding that left corner viewfinder up to their left eye. Panasonic's (apparent) decision to go with a clip-on EVF at the top center of the camera serves both left and right-eyed shooters about equally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocular_dominance

I like the rearward protrusion of the G-GH series EVFs, as well as the top center mount of the GF1-2 with the LVF1. I am left-eyed and right-handed, and was very glad the M16 rifle could be aimed with my left eye and fired with my right hand, since the gunsight was mounted in the center.

If Panasonic (or Oly) comes up with an RF style camera with the coveted top left viewfinder, approximately 1/3 of their prospective customers will find them difficult to work with (but easy to slip into a pocket).

Best regards,
Lou
 
facepalm

Thanks for utterly and completely missing the point.
You are, actually, since you're not talking about a situation that exists in reality, but rather imaginary 'what ifs'.

Good luck with that.
Thanks! And good luck to you in your quest to find a camera that doesn't have a style as part of its design.

David
You're kidding. People actually care about the 'style' of a camera not being 'inspiring'?

LOL. That is just absurd.
Really? Just absurd, eh?

So if you had a choice between two cameras with exactly the same sensor, controls, and menus, they both used the same lenses, but one was designed like a Leica M9 and the other like a boxy lump of pink plastic, it would be a tossup for you?

Really? Now who's being absurd?

David
--
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows
--Epictetus
--
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows
--Epictetus
 
Yeah, lets be honest here, you can come up with all sorts of reasons why a small 1cm protrusion on the back of the camera would make it difficult to put it in a bag while having a 4-8cm protrusion on the front of the camera doesn't, but it feels more like you just like the overall look and style of the NEX7 better.
Personally I could care less about the "look and style", if you think that is why people like the NEX-7 approach, you aren't reading our posts. Or you think we're lying. Either way, how can we have a reasonable conversation with you?
If you look at Panasonic's EVF module it's pretty damn big, no way they could use it in an NEX7 shaped body. They could conceivably use the same unit as the GF1 external EVF, but I'd rather no EVF at all than that thing taking up space on the body!



Panasonic are probably years away from being able to match the component size of the NEX7 and no amount of uninspired posts complaining about it on here will make it appear any quicker. Fact is right now you can get a camera that's a little bigger than the NEX7 with an EVF or a little smaller than the NEX7 without.
Probably years away? What are you basing that on? Before the NEX-7 came out, one could make an argument that it just wasn't technically possible. Now you can't. So now you're speculating that they are years behind in engineering, or there are unresolvable patent or licensing issues, or the people asking for it have alterior motives (look and style? secret Sony fanboys?)

Thats all just baseless speculation on your part. Fact is, it's possible with current technology, one manufacturer is doing it, Panasonic isn't. Theres obviously a few folks here that wish they were. End of story.

If you disagree, then we just have different opinions or priorities. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I really don't understand the hostile reaction on this forum to people who dare to suggest a flush mount EVF would be nice.

Rob
 
-snip-
If you disagree, then we just have different opinions or priorities. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I really don't understand the hostile reaction on this forum to people who dare to suggest a flush mount EVF would be nice.

Rob
I might go for a flush mount EVF - so long as it's at the top -right- corner of the body.

Prospective left-eyed NEX7 buyers should think twice, or at least try one out, before buying.

Best regards,
Lou
 
facepalm

Thanks for utterly and completely missing the point.
Sorry? You had a point, other than a gratuitous and infantile insult? Gosh, I must have missed it.

David
You are, actually, since you're not talking about a situation that exists in reality, but rather imaginary 'what ifs'.

Good luck with that.
Thanks! And good luck to you in your quest to find a camera that doesn't have a style as part of its design.

David
You're kidding. People actually care about the 'style' of a camera not being 'inspiring'?

LOL. That is just absurd.
Really? Just absurd, eh?

So if you had a choice between two cameras with exactly the same sensor, controls, and menus, they both used the same lenses, but one was designed like a Leica M9 and the other like a boxy lump of pink plastic, it would be a tossup for you?

Really? Now who's being absurd?

David
--
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows
--Epictetus
--
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows
--Epictetus
--
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows
--Epictetus
 

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