Fuji 602 and action shots- can we compete?

In the Open forum I just came across this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=3968339
Pretty impressive stuff, I think you'll agree.

I was just wondering, you guys with the D7Hi's, how do we stack up? I've got a D7 which is a lot less suitable for this sort of thing.

I don't recall seeing a lot of posts of this sort of action, and I'd be interested in seeing some.

I'm not into 'brand wars'. I think we should just take things on their real merits, and it would be nice to know if the 7Hi offers comparable performance.
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Technique is more important than the equipment in this area.

Although using unsuitable equipment would prevent you apply the technique successfully.

To many have come here having bought the equipment without applying themselves to learning the technique... and then condemned the equipment because they haven't take time to learn the technique.

Panning is a technique that takes some time to master.

Tripods ... not such a good .... monopods a good idea when you've got heavy equipment to take the weight.

Panning... EXPECT many failures to even after learning the technique... it is not a POINT and SHOOT technique.

Geraint Morgan said:

Technique is more important than the equipment in this area.

Although using unsuitable equipment would prevent you apply the
technique successfully.

To many have come here having bought the equipment without applying
themselves to learning the technique... and then condemned the
equipment because they haven't take time to learn the technique.

Panning is a technique that takes some time to master.

Tripods ... not such a good .... monopods a good idea when you've
got heavy equipment to take the weight.

Panning... EXPECT many failures to even after learning the
technique... it is not a POINT and SHOOT technique.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, Geraint. Your point is well made. Just the same , I'm pretty impressed with the Fuji's part in the proceedings, I don't recall seeing many posts of equivalent action with the Minnies's and I'd be interested ot see if anyone has any.

I loved the shot with superimposed images of the motorbike flying through the air!
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

At 5fps for 5 frames (1 second) its the fastest out there.

It does beat the 7i at 3fps for 3 frames (1 sec) (full res)

Arguably the 7Hi at 3fps for 3 secs (9 frames) is more useful. Not as fast but in practice a lot longer to "capture the moment".

I have a few reasonable shots but Peterri has the best - albeit of birds.

However I noticed that the photographer in question was taking shots at a fair distance on the whole. His technique would work fine whichever camera you used.

David Martin said:

Geraint Morgan said:

Technique is more important than the equipment in this area.

Although using unsuitable equipment would prevent you apply the
technique successfully.

To many have come here having bought the equipment without applying
themselves to learning the technique... and then condemned the
equipment because they haven't take time to learn the technique.

Panning is a technique that takes some time to master.

Tripods ... not such a good .... monopods a good idea when you've
got heavy equipment to take the weight.

Panning... EXPECT many failures to even after learning the
technique... it is not a POINT and SHOOT technique.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, Geraint. Your point is well made. Just the
same , I'm pretty impressed with the Fuji's part in the
proceedings, I don't recall seeing many posts of equivalent action
with the Minnies's and I'd be interested ot see if anyone has any.
I loved the shot with superimposed images of the motorbike flying
through the air!
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

--
Jack.
Its not what you shoot its the way that you shoot it.

Jack0 said:

It does beat the 7i at 3fps for 3 frames (1 sec) (full res)

Arguably the 7Hi at 3fps for 3 secs (9 frames) is more useful. Not
as fast but in practice a lot longer to "capture the moment".

I have a few reasonable shots but Peterri has the best - albeit of
birds.

However I noticed that the photographer in question was taking
shots at a fair distance on the whole. His technique would work
fine whichever camera you used.

David Martin said:

Geraint Morgan said:

Technique is more important than the equipment in this area.

Although using unsuitable equipment would prevent you apply the
technique successfully.

To many have come here having bought the equipment without applying
themselves to learning the technique... and then condemned the
equipment because they haven't take time to learn the technique.

Panning is a technique that takes some time to master.

Tripods ... not such a good .... monopods a good idea when you've
got heavy equipment to take the weight.

Panning... EXPECT many failures to even after learning the
technique... it is not a POINT and SHOOT technique.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, Geraint. Your point is well made. Just the
same , I'm pretty impressed with the Fuji's part in the
proceedings, I don't recall seeing many posts of equivalent action
with the Minnies's and I'd be interested ot see if anyone has any.
I loved the shot with superimposed images of the motorbike flying
through the air!
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

--
Jack.
Its not what you shoot its the way that you shoot it.

Click to expand...

plus funny comments to the pics, what make whole gallery amazing.
jack

Jack D. said:

plus funny comments to the pics, what make whole gallery amazing.
jack

Click to expand...

Natural Australian talent!!
--
Jack.
Its not what you shoot its the way that you shoot it.

David Martin said:

Geraint Morgan said:

Technique is more important than the equipment in this area.

Although using unsuitable equipment would prevent you apply the
technique successfully.

To many have come here having bought the equipment without applying
themselves to learning the technique... and then condemned the
equipment because they haven't take time to learn the technique.

Panning is a technique that takes some time to master.

Tripods ... not such a good .... monopods a good idea when you've
got heavy equipment to take the weight.

Panning... EXPECT many failures to even after learning the
technique... it is not a POINT and SHOOT technique.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, Geraint. Your point is well made. Just the
same , I'm pretty impressed with the Fuji's part in the
proceedings, I don't recall seeing many posts of equivalent action
with the Minnies's and I'd be interested ot see if anyone has any.
I loved the shot with superimposed images of the motorbike flying
through the air!
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

Count me in - I would like to see more or the same. Panning is just a word - the real technique involved in this stuff is "how to pan" effectively. Whenever I have attempted (and poorly at that) panning, I was ALWAYS less than pleased with the results. Hopefully, if more photography like the above is presented in the Minolta forum, we can all learn about "how to pan".

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian, Pbase Supporter

http://www.pbase.com/jkurkjia

Jack0 said:

At 5fps for 5 frames (1 second) its the fastest out there.

It does beat the 7i at 3fps for 3 frames (1 sec) (full res)

Click to expand...

It also leaves the EVF/LCD on the entire time, making it much easier to use (IMHO). I have tried this mode on both cameras and the Fuji is just stunning... but that is really the only place I feel it excels.

J A K said:

David Martin said:

Geraint Morgan said:

Technique is more important than the equipment in this area.

Although using unsuitable equipment would prevent you apply the
technique successfully.

To many have come here having bought the equipment without applying
themselves to learning the technique... and then condemned the
equipment because they haven't take time to learn the technique.

Panning is a technique that takes some time to master.

Tripods ... not such a good .... monopods a good idea when you've
got heavy equipment to take the weight.

Panning... EXPECT many failures to even after learning the
technique... it is not a POINT and SHOOT technique.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, Geraint. Your point is well made. Just the
same , I'm pretty impressed with the Fuji's part in the
proceedings, I don't recall seeing many posts of equivalent action
with the Minnies's and I'd be interested ot see if anyone has any.
I loved the shot with superimposed images of the motorbike flying
through the air!
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

Count me in - I would like to see more or the same. Panning is
just a word - the real technique involved in this stuff is "how to
pan" effectively. Whenever I have attempted (and poorly at that)
panning, I was ALWAYS less than pleased with the results.
Hopefully, if more photography like the above is presented in the
Minolta forum, we can all learn about "how to pan".

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian, Pbase Supporter

http://www.pbase.com/jkurkjia

Click to expand...

Joe, that is exactly right. I know that the photogarher is the main thing, but even Ansell Adams would have been stuffed without a camera!

It boils down to that I have seen good action shots from ths Fuji, but not with the Minolta, the nearest I Have seen are whitewater shots, but you are not really talking about a speed event.

Now I can live with it if this is an area of weakness of the Minolta's, I am not into 'camera wars' and I have vigorously defended the Minolta's against what I considered unjustified attacks about noise, but if the Fuji does the job for action shots better than the Minolta, that's fine. No brand loyalty, me.

I have just been replying to people who have asked about action shots with stuff about speed of shot etc., but has anyone got actual shots?
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

David Martin said:

J A K said:

David Martin said:

Geraint Morgan said:

Technique is more important than the equipment in this area.

Although using unsuitable equipment would prevent you apply the
technique successfully.

To many have come here having bought the equipment without applying
themselves to learning the technique... and then condemned the
equipment because they haven't take time to learn the technique.

Panning is a technique that takes some time to master.

Tripods ... not such a good .... monopods a good idea when you've
got heavy equipment to take the weight.

Panning... EXPECT many failures to even after learning the
technique... it is not a POINT and SHOOT technique.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, Geraint. Your point is well made. Just the
same , I'm pretty impressed with the Fuji's part in the
proceedings, I don't recall seeing many posts of equivalent action
with the Minnies's and I'd be interested ot see if anyone has any.
I loved the shot with superimposed images of the motorbike flying
through the air!
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

Count me in - I would like to see more or the same. Panning is
just a word - the real technique involved in this stuff is "how to
pan" effectively. Whenever I have attempted (and poorly at that)
panning, I was ALWAYS less than pleased with the results.
Hopefully, if more photography like the above is presented in the
Minolta forum, we can all learn about "how to pan".

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian, Pbase Supporter

http://www.pbase.com/jkurkjia

Click to expand...

Joe, that is exactly right. I know that the photogarher is the main
thing, but even Ansell Adams would have been stuffed without a
camera!
It boils down to that I have seen good action shots from ths Fuji,
but not with the Minolta, the nearest I Have seen are whitewater
shots, but you are not really talking about a speed event.
Now I can live with it if this is an area of weakness of the
Minolta's, I am not into 'camera wars' and I have vigorously
defended the Minolta's against what I considered unjustified
attacks about noise, but if the Fuji does the job for action shots
better than the Minolta, that's fine. No brand loyalty, me.
I have just been replying to people who have asked about action
shots with stuff about speed of shot etc., but has anyone got
actual shots?
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

Hi again Dave, see my comment on the open forum,
Best Regards Mike

David Martin said:

In the Open forum I just came across this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=3968339
Pretty impressive stuff, I think you'll agree.
I was just wondering, you guys with the D7Hi's, how do we stack up?
I've got a D7 which is a lot less suitable for this sort of thing.
I don't recall seeing a lot of posts of this sort of action, and
I'd be interested in seeing some.
I'm not into 'brand wars'. I think we should just take things on
their real merits, and it would be nice to know if the 7Hi offers
comparable performance.
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

This was my first time out with my 7i. It's not the same as my Minolta 9 for focus, but on manual focus ( I spot focused on the area I needed) it worked great.
http://www.pbase.com/bmb77/inbox
Bob

Hi Dave,

David Martin said:

In the Open forum I just came across this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=3968339
Pretty impressive stuff, I think you'll agree.
I was just wondering, you guys with the D7Hi's, how do we stack up?
I've got a D7 which is a lot less suitable for this sort of thing.
I don't recall seeing a lot of posts of this sort of action, and
I'd be interested in seeing some.
I'm not into 'brand wars'. I think we should just take things on
their real merits, and it would be nice to know if the 7Hi offers
comparable performance.
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

I don't want to play down the photographer's work, but I think these situations are easy to handle. It's daylight, so no flash needed and most likely small aperture and/or long distance. Like this I think most of the images could be taken with manual focus set to infinity or near that, so no focussing would be needed. The next thing is that the situations are somewhat predictable, especially the ramp thing. I think panning for action shots is absolutely no problem, especially when using the display. Just think about people who are doing clay-pidgeon-shooting, how can they succeed?

My biggest challenge so far is a little more complicated and therefore I did not succeed yet: I want to catch a person doing a somersault or backflip in mid-air during a stage show from short distance and using flash. This involves estimating the pre-flash and shutter lag and having a non-predictable situation - unless you did the choreography. As soon as I succeed I'll let you know.

Hans-Jürgen

Great shots, and close in too. Nice panning technique!! I can't wait to see what you manage after a bit of practice

Bob Bruce said:

This was my first time out with my 7i. It's not the same as my
Minolta 9 for focus, but on manual focus ( I spot focused on the
area I needed) it worked great.
http://www.pbase.com/bmb77/inbox
Bob

Click to expand...

--
Jack.
Its not what you shoot its the way that you shoot it.

Hans-Jürgen Reggel said:

My biggest challenge so far is a little more complicated and
therefore I did not succeed yet: I want to catch a person doing a
somersault or backflip in mid-air during a stage show from short
distance and using flash. This involves estimating the pre-flash
and shutter lag and having a non-predictable situation - unless you
did the choreography. As soon as I succeed I'll let you know.

Hans-Jürgen

Click to expand...

I was having problems photographing indoor basketball with my D7i and Sunpak PZ5000AF flash, and I was wondering if an ADI flash with the D7i would be better. Are you using continous auto-focus to feed sub-distance info to the flash? If yes, how does it seem to work?

William

David Martin said:

In the Open forum I just came across this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=3968339
Pretty impressive stuff, I think you'll agree.
I was just wondering, you guys with the D7Hi's, how do we stack up?
I've got a D7 which is a lot less suitable for this sort of thing.
I don't recall seeing a lot of posts of this sort of action, and
I'd be interested in seeing some.
I'm not into 'brand wars'. I think we should just take things on
their real merits, and it would be nice to know if the 7Hi offers
comparable performance.
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

Over the next year, I'm going to be doing a lot of documenting of 4x4 truck offroad events (hillclimbs, rockcrawling, etc) with my 7i. There tends to be a lot of action that I couldnt capture in the past (with my old Panasonic). The 7i is tremendously faster from what I've seen so far, so I will keep everyone posted with my results once I get a chance to test it out fully.

Hi William,

William West said:

I was having problems photographing indoor basketball with my D7i
and Sunpak PZ5000AF flash, and I was wondering if an ADI flash with
the D7i would be better. Are you using continous auto-focus to
feed sub-distance info to the flash? If yes, how does it seem to
work?

William

Click to expand...

In general ADI flash is more difficult to handle than normal TTL flash. The ADI seems to set the flash power based on the focus distance, so this means that the flash will not reach much behind the focus distance. I did not test this, but I noticed this on my first set of pictures: Whenever the AF failed and got a too short distance, the pictures were underexposed.

I would recommend ADI for non-action shots, especially when reflective surfaces are involved. Limiting the flash power beforehand should avoid strong highlights and unwanted reflections. I will do some testing with reflective surfaces and ADI on/off and post the results.

Because of the poor AF performance in low light I use manual focus most of the time for action shots in low light. I still have to figure out whether the ADI will have positive effect concerning the flash range, especially for great depth of field shots.

I also did not do much testing with continuous autofocus, but others report that it does not work very well. I read that the camera takes the shot when you press the shutter release, no matter whether the continuous AF was in focus or slightly off due to re-focussing.

Hans-Jürgen

Thanks Hans-Jürgen:

It looks as though my Sunpak 5000AF is not too much inferior to pre-flash TTL flash units; however, I suspect the shutter lag is much longer than the pre-flash exposure test being done by the camera. I've been using manual focus and manual mode, with the shutter release half-way pressed down, and following the action. Obviously, I'm not doing any manual focusing when I'm following the action, and I'm restricted to a zone as to what I can photograph.

===========

I was trying to keep ambient light (the background) in the photo as much as possible, thus I've been using shutter speeds 1/30 and 1/60. I believe the flash has been stopping action when the subject(s) is within the flash range. But, I'm thinking (and looking at some photos I've done) any action in the background will be blurred as though no flash was used. Do you agree?

William

Hi William,

William West said:

Thanks Hans-Jürgen:

It looks as though my Sunpak 5000AF is not too much inferior to
pre-flash TTL flash units; however, I suspect the shutter lag is
much longer than the pre-flash exposure test being done by the
camera. I've been using manual focus and manual mode, with the
shutter release half-way pressed down, and following the action.
Obviously, I'm not doing any manual focusing when I'm following the
action, and I'm restricted to a zone as to what I can photograph.

Click to expand...

I will try and measure the difference in shutter lag without and with flash. To make a guess I would say that the additional pre-flash lag is about 1/20s.
I think I did not understand your last remark.

William West said:

===========

I was trying to keep ambient light (the background) in the photo as
much as possible, thus I've been using shutter speeds 1/30 and
1/60. I believe the flash has been stopping action when the
subject(s) is within the flash range. But, I'm thinking (and
looking at some photos I've done) any action in the background will
be blurred as though no flash was used. Do you agree?

Click to expand...

If you want to follow the action, then you should not care about ambient background, since it will be blurred if it becomes visible. That's not just because of the shutter speed, but mainly because of the panning speed. If you want to get ambient light, then you should first set the largest aperture and use wide angle.

My action setting is full manual mode, shutter speed 1/180s and aperture via dial. I used 1/50s and 1/60s before, but then you can get strange double-exposure-like results when a person moves in front of a strong light source.

If you really want ambient background without motion blur, then I would suggest you use a tripod without following the action. The flash will freeze the action and the tripod will prevent blur from motion and shake. A remote shutter release would be necessary, too.

I once shot a fire show where I used a small tripod that I placed on the stage. The situation is a little different, since I used no flash at all, but the fire is the main light source resulting in a path and the background stays dark. I did not have the time to do experiments, so the background was very dark, but the fire trails came out OK.

Hans-Jürgen

Hans-Jürgen Reggel said:

I will try and measure the difference in shutter lag without and
with flash. To make a guess I would say that the additional
pre-flash lag is about 1/20s.

Click to expand...

It seems 1/20sec is not that long of time, but if an indiviudal is moving at 15 MPH, I've calculated an individual can travel 4.4 feet within that time; 10 MPH, I've calculated an individual can travel 2.9 feet within that time. If your estimate is correct, pre-flash would have a substantial effect on close-up compostions of subjects in action.

If you wait for action to come into a predetermined area/zone on the court/stage/etc, then you should already have an idea of what distance, aperture, and depth of field is required; thus, you can eliminate using pre-flash TTL. I guess if I had a flash with pre-flash TTL, I would attempt to press the shutter release ahead of time in order to have more photo opportunites, provided the action is half-way predictable.

If someone were to ask what would be best for indoor action photography, I would have to recommend a film TTL camera and flash system, along with a film scanner.

William

I think if you upgrade for the enhance kit and transform your D7 in a D7u, then you get the HSU? mode that let you capture a lot of frame but only at 1280 x 960 (1.3mp), cannot remember how many frames but i think it's good enough for action shots.

I think the burst mode is also improved. 1.5fps full size for 3 frames?

David Martin said:

In the Open forum I just came across this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=3968339
Pretty impressive stuff, I think you'll agree.
I was just wondering, you guys with the D7Hi's, how do we stack up?
I've got a D7 which is a lot less suitable for this sort of thing.
I don't recall seeing a lot of posts of this sort of action, and
I'd be interested in seeing some.
I'm not into 'brand wars'. I think we should just take things on
their real merits, and it would be nice to know if the 7Hi offers
comparable performance.
Best regards,
--
DaveMart

Click to expand...

--
Daniella
http://www.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=26918
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
C700 FORUM: http://www.c700uz.com