Somewhat, kinda, breaking news on Pentax FF

robbo d said:

..............Here's an interesting thought. We all assume that a Pro supported DSLR system has to be FF, so what about APS-C pro ?? seeing as though Pentax are thinking outside the square lately.

What actually constitutes a Pro DSLR ?? Can someone tell me please?? I know the deal on IQ, sensor size, but what about specs?

If the K5 is almost as good and even better then some FF in some areas and technology getting better, wouldnt a lot of professional sports and newspaper shooters want a smaller, lighter pro supported system that APS-C would give them ??

Give it a pro spec ( whatever that is ? ) no nonsense APS-C Pentax, continue the weather seal, make it tougher than nails, increase support.........

Then all we need is to carry on but just improve the lens line up, flash etc etc

Just a thought, like to hear what some pro's have to say.............

Click to expand...

Probably best to post in the pro forum and then put a helmet on.

I agree with you, though I'm not sure light weight is apt to be much of a consideration: that's primarily because a tough camera tends to be a little heavier because it usually requires heavier materials, or more of the lighter materials.

I've been selling photos taken with a Pentax DSLR for nearly a decade now, covering three models: *istD, K10D and K20D. I'm sticking with the K20D until a couple more of my desires are met by a new Pentax, or until the K5 drops to a much lower price.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com

Alex Sarbu said:

rwl408 said:

Alex Sarbu said:

rwl408 said:

That being said, a FF version of Fujifilm x100 is feasible and enticing.

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Pentax can't make it work, but Fuji can? You're funny...

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Can you read? I didn't say Pentax can't make it work. I simply said I am not surprised if Fujifilm makes it first. By the way, Fujifilm sold 300k units of x100 in 6 months, not 30k.

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You said:

Alex Sarbu said:

Business is for profit and besides I don't think Ricoh has a pocket that deep to sustain a FF DSLR venture . If you want a FF DSLR or have it in your plan, cut your loss and move on like all those people who have done it.

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So you don't think they can do it. Yet a much more expensive FF "X100" is "feasible and enticing"...

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The FF DSLR ecosystem needs a lot more than just a body or two. Pentax did not have the means to do it and I think Ricoh, who is in much better financial position, can't do it either. What Ricoh has been doing, an x100 type of FF camera, not DSLR, makes a lot of sense. When x100 prototype was shown last year, I started a thread lamenting Pentax marketing's lack of vision. x100 is so successful that Fujifilm wants to keep the momentum going. Now we see x10 and who knows what next.

--
Rick

CharlieDIY said:

I've been selling photos taken with a Pentax DSLR for nearly a decade now, covering three models: *istD, K10D and K20D. I'm sticking with the K20D until a couple more of my desires are met by a new Pentax, or until the K5 drops to a much lower price.

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Users like you are one of the reasons that Pentax became Pentax Ricoh. But I don't blame you, k5 was way over-priced.
--
Rick

rwl408 said:

Alex Sarbu said:

rwl408 said:

Alex Sarbu said:

rwl408 said:

That being said, a FF version of Fujifilm x100 is feasible and enticing.

Click to expand...

Pentax can't make it work, but Fuji can? You're funny...

Click to expand...

Can you read? I didn't say Pentax can't make it work. I simply said I am not surprised if Fujifilm makes it first. By the way, Fujifilm sold 300k units of x100 in 6 months, not 30k.

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You said:

rwl408 said:

Business is for profit and besides I don't think Ricoh has a pocket that deep to sustain a FF DSLR venture . If you want a FF DSLR or have it in your plan, cut your loss and move on like all those people who have done it.

Click to expand...

So you don't think they can do it. Yet a much more expensive FF "X100" is "feasible and enticing"...

Click to expand...

The FF DSLR ecosystem needs a lot more than just a body or two. Pentax did not have the means to do it and I think Ricoh, who is in much better financial position, can't do it either. What Ricoh has been doing, an x100 type of FF camera, not DSLR, makes a lot of sense. When x100 prototype was shown last year, I started a thread lamenting Pentax marketing's lack of vision. x100 is so successful that Fujifilm wants to keep the momentum going. Now we see x10 and who knows what next.

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You are repeating the same idea, yet fail to show some arguments.

Ricoh wants to grow Pentax, as simple as that. If Ricoh believes they can grow better/faster with a FF, they'll make it possible. It isn't rocket science, Pentax certainly can launch a "FF" - is just a matter of being or not profitable.

And about your "FF X100" - do you know for a fact that those who likes this kind of camera would gladly pay much more only for a better IQ? Nope, you don't know that.

By the way, if Pentax did the X100 you'd be lamenting about them "abandoning" the K-mount (even if nothing of that sort would happen). People always find reasons for lamenting
P.S. Are you aware the X10 is just a premium compact?

Alex S

Is it still a rumor or have they made it official that their 2 model are discontinued?
--
Dave

onesidedcoin said:

Is it still a rumor or have they made it official that their 2 model are discontinued?

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They are officially out of production, not discontinued. Whatever that means.
--
Rick

As for me, it's nonsense list of reasons. It's reasons just for several stone age fans of Pentax.

As for me...I think that Ricoh/Pentax has ONLY ONE way to offer FF to get good sales and make camera to be popular...I said it 2 years ago. And I say it now.

Compact FF mirrorless camera with BIG EVF. Maybe on the base of GXR. But better if it would be absolutely new camera.
Maybe with WR, with new mount and with new WR lenses.

To invest money to the classical FF DSLR for K-mount is silly IMO It will be failure for such small company...

Some Pentax fans want to put old lenses to FF K-mount camera. But it's the way to nowhere. No any chances to compete in this niche with C/N/S.

If I were financial director of Ricoh/Pentax, I would never give any penny for such camera.

The company MUST raise money, increase profits by amplification of number of Pentax users....Sell more new lenses and more new products.

Let Pentax make new FF mirrorless camera, new fast limiteds, new WR lenses and new adaptor for K mount.

K-mount will be the mount for amateurs and for APS-C.

Shorter flange focal distance is the BIG benefit. Mirrorless with much shorter FFD than K-mount will develop Pentax photosystem.
20-25 mm will be really good.

ogl said:

As for me, it's nonsense list of reasons. It's reasons just for several stone age fans of Pentax.

As for me...I think that Ricoh/Pentax has ONLY ONE way to offer FF to get good sales and make camera to be popular...I said it 2 years ago. And I say it now.

Compact FF mirrorless camera with BIG EVF. Maybe on the base of GXR. But better if it would be absolutely new camera.
Maybe with WR, with new mount and with new WR lenses.

To invest money to the classical FF DSLR for K-mount is silly IMO It will be failure for such small company...

Some Pentax fans want to put old lenses to FF K-mount camera. But it's the way to nowhere. No any chances to compete in this niche with C/N/S.

If I were financial director of Ricoh/Pentax, I would never give any penny for such camera.

The company MUST raise money, increase profits by amplification of number of Pentax users....Sell more new lenses and more new products.

Let Pentax make new FF mirrorless camera, new fast limiteds, new WR lenses and new adaptor for K mount.

K-mount will be the mount for amateurs and for APS-C.

Shorter flange focal distance is the BIG benefit. Mirrorless with much shorter FFD than K-mount will develop Pentax photosystem.
20-25 mm will be really good.

Click to expand...

Wait till Alex Sarbu sees your posting. I am tired of explaining to him why FF DSLR won't work for Pentax or Pentax Ricoh.
--
Rick

rwl408 said:

ogl said:

As for me, it's nonsense list of reasons. It's reasons just for several stone age fans of Pentax.

As for me...I think that Ricoh/Pentax has ONLY ONE way to offer FF to get good sales and make camera to be popular...I said it 2 years ago. And I say it now.

Compact FF mirrorless camera with BIG EVF. Maybe on the base of GXR. But better if it would be absolutely new camera.
Maybe with WR, with new mount and with new WR lenses.

To invest money to the classical FF DSLR for K-mount is silly IMO It will be failure for such small company...

Some Pentax fans want to put old lenses to FF K-mount camera. But it's the way to nowhere. No any chances to compete in this niche with C/N/S.

If I were financial director of Ricoh/Pentax, I would never give any penny for such camera.

The company MUST raise money, increase profits by amplification of number of Pentax users....Sell more new lenses and more new products.

Let Pentax make new FF mirrorless camera, new fast limiteds, new WR lenses and new adaptor for K mount.

K-mount will be the mount for amateurs and for APS-C.

Shorter flange focal distance is the BIG benefit. Mirrorless with much shorter FFD than K-mount will develop Pentax photosystem.
20-25 mm will be really good.

Click to expand...

Wait till Alex Sarbu sees your posting. I am tired of explaining to him why FF DSLR won't work for Pentax or Pentax Ricoh.
--
Rick

Click to expand...

I already responded to him, on another forum

But I don't remember you giving any explanation why you believe Pentax can't make it work. And I've read your posts carefully

Alex S

ogl said:

As for me, it's nonsense list of reasons. It's reasons just for several stone age fans of Pentax.

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As for me, quite often your posts are full of nonsense. And preventively insulting anyone that might argue with you is a cheap tactic - which would often backfire.

ogl said:

As for me...I think that Ricoh/Pentax has ONLY ONE way to offer FF to get good sales and make camera to be popular...I said it 2 years ago. And I say it now.

Compact FF mirrorless camera with BIG EVF. Maybe on the base of GXR. But better if it would be absolutely new camera.

Click to expand...

Ridiculous. A one system camera, and make that a $2500-$3000 camera, with expensive lenses? With no entry and mid-level products to sustain it? You're asking Pentax to start from the wrong end of the range. ) Ever asked yourself why nobody tried that ?

Alex S

Alex Sarbu said:

I already responded to him, on another forum

But I don't remember you giving any explanation why you believe Pentax can't make it work. And I've read your posts carefully

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It's not an answer.
I don't know your opinion. I don't see your arguments.

Alex Sarbu said:

Ridiculous. A one system camera, and make that a $2500-$3000 camera, with expensive lenses? With no entry and mid-level products to sustain it? You're asking Pentax to start from the wrong end of the range. ) Ever asked yourself why nobody tried that ?

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The price depends on various factors. Can I ask you about your job and profession?
Do you refer to any big bussiness?

I don't ask Pentax AT ALL.
I don't want FF now - DSLR or EVIL or something else.

It's just my opinion. Pentax FF DLSR K-mount is useless product for photo market. IMO. Pentax is ALMOST ZERO at the world DSLR/EVIL market.
Lower than any photo brand. Except, Leica, Sigma or Fuji, maybe...

It's suicide - to launch FF K-mount camera for company which not above 1% of market.

ogl said:

Alex Sarbu said:

I already responded to him, on another forum

But I don't remember you giving any explanation why you believe Pentax can't make it work. And I've read your posts carefully

Click to expand...

It's not an answer.
I don't know your opinion. I don't see your arguments.

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My opinion is: it could work - but I have no data to know for sure. And where are your arguments?

Alex S

ogl said:

ogl said:

Ridiculous. A one system camera, and make that a $2500-$3000 camera, with expensive lenses? With no entry and mid-level products to sustain it? You're asking Pentax to start from the wrong end of the range. ) Ever asked yourself why nobody tried that ?

Click to expand...

The price depends on various factors. Can I ask you about your job and profession?
Do you refer to any big bussiness?

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Still with cheap tricks? Can't you figure out they won't work on me?

What is your job and profession, do you refer to any big business - if such things are important?

ogl said:

I don't ask Pentax AT ALL.
I don't want FF now - DSLR or EVIL or something else.

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Yes, I know that. You're saying Pentax should make products you wouldn't buy.

ogl said:

It's just my opinion. Pentax FF DLSR K-mount is useless product for photo market. IMO. Pentax is ALMOST ZERO at the world DSLR/EVIL market.

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Fortunately, Pentax don't care about your opinion. They won't go out of their way to persuade you upgrade from your K200D, which you won't do anyway.

ogl said:

Lower than any photo brand. Except, Leica, Sigma or Fuji, maybe...

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I have a brilliant idea: let's watch Pentax growing their market share. It could be quite a show...

ogl said:

It's suicide - to launch FF K-mount camera for company which not above 1% of market.

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1%? You made that up, or maybe you're talking about that irrelevant 1.5% figure which was circulating on the net some time ago?

Alex S

FF is not going to save Pentax (nor do I believe we'll ever see it from Pentax).

Matter of fact, I don't think that FF DSLR's will be anything more than a small niche product reserved for high end shooters within the next five years or so.

I mean, really . . . back in the film days how many 4x5 view cameras would you see at tourist traps when you were on vacation?

I know I never once took my 4x5 ToyoView on vacation . . . let alone rarely ever took it out of my studio!

The best thing that Pentax can do to get more customers and more sales is to . . .

PUT THEIR DAMN PRODUCTS BACK IN THE STORES!

Getting their products in the stores where people can see them along side ALL OF THE OTHER BRANDS that do have their products in the stores, is the only way Pentax will survive!

It really is that simple.

I'm in the camera sales business . . .

I get several people each week looking for Pentax cameras because they read about them on the internet.

They leave the store with a Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, Casio, Olympus . . .

Well, I think you get the picture (pun intended).

When someone comes in looking to buy a camera, their hope is to leave with a camera.

When a product is not available in the stores, then chances are quite likely they will look at other brands!

And chances are they will buy one of the available brands.

Remember . . . not everyone buys their cameras on the internet!

--
J. D.
Colorado

• "If your insurance company tells you that you don't need a lawyer . . . hire a lawyer!"

My idea is that Ricoh/Pentax need only innovative, unusual and special solution for FF camera.

Mirrorless FF is just hypothetic idea.
Not my wish.

I hope that their 3rd owner in less than a decade gets this.

MusicDoctorDJ said:

FF is not going to save Pentax (nor do I believe we'll ever see it from Pentax).

Matter of fact, I don't think that FF DSLR's will be anything more than a small niche product reserved for high end shooters within the next five years or so.

I mean, really . . . back in the film days how many 4x5 view cameras would you see at tourist traps when you were on vacation?

I know I never once took my 4x5 ToyoView on vacation . . . let alone rarely ever took it out of my studio!

The best thing that Pentax can do to get more customers and more sales is to . . .

PUT THEIR DAMN PRODUCTS BACK IN THE STORES!

Getting their products in the stores where people can see them along side ALL OF THE OTHER BRANDS that do have their products in the stores, is the only way Pentax will survive!

It really is that simple.

I'm in the camera sales business . . .

I get several people each week looking for Pentax cameras because they read about them on the internet.

They leave the store with a Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, Casio, Olympus . . .

Well, I think you get the picture (pun intended).

When someone comes in looking to buy a camera, their hope is to leave with a camera.

When a product is not available in the stores, then chances are quite likely they will look at other brands!

And chances are they will buy one of the available brands.

Remember . . . not everyone buys their cameras on the internet!

--
J. D.
Colorado

• "If your insurance company tells you that you don't need a lawyer . . . hire a lawyer!"

Click to expand...

--
Dave

MusicDoctorDJ said:

The best thing that Pentax can do to get more customers and more sales is to . . .

PUT THEIR DAMN PRODUCTS BACK IN THE STORES!

Getting their products in the stores where people can see them along side ALL OF THE OTHER BRANDS that do have their products in the stores, is the only way Pentax will survive!

It really is that simple.

I'm in the camera sales business . . .

I get several people each week looking for Pentax cameras because they read about them on the internet.

They leave the store with a Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, Casio, Olympus . . .

Well, I think you get the picture (pun intended).

When someone comes in looking to buy a camera, their hope is to leave with a camera.

When a product is not available in the stores, then chances are quite likely they will look at other brands!

Click to expand...

As for Russia, Pentax cameras are rare availiable in the stores now. it was a bit better 6 years ago.

The most users buy in Internet. But it's not good way to expand brand in each country.

it seems to me that good situation with Pentax is only in Japan.

Alex Sarbu said:

1%? You made that up, or maybe you're talking about that irrelevant 1.5% figure which was circulating on the net some time ago?

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1.5%? OH....it's MUCH MORE than 1%. Sorry...Sorry..

It's data of ALL DIGITAL CAMERAS

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-15/sony-nikon-narrow-gap-to-canon-with-new-digital-camera-models.html

1.5% of all digital cameras shipments.

pay attention at the word SHIPMENTS.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2011-04-26-camera-rivals_n.htm?AID=4992781&PID=4003003&SID=gkthz9e2floh

Canon has 44.5% of the digital SLR market, followed by Nikon at 29.8%, Sony with 11.9% and Olympus at 5.1%.

The rest companies are 9.7%.

moving_comfort said:

moving_comfort said:

11. The Pentax system is unique in that it allows users to take advantage of thousands of legacy K-mount and M42 mount lenses. A full-frame body would continue to be compatible with these lenses, and users would be able to take full advantage of their fields of view.

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If Pentax went FF the price of those old lens which do not perform well on FF will jump very high. The reason those old FF lens perform well on APS sensors is the ASP size sensor crops out the worse part of the lens IQ. The sensor only sees the light from the sharpest part of the lens. That's why my old Ricoh 50mm f/1.7 with film has softish edges at f/1.7. But on a APS sensor dSLR that softness is gone (its cropped out). The best sensor for old lens is an APS sensor. Especially since they were not designed for digital sensors that have demanding requirements for the light coming out the back of a lens.

In FF it would be even harder for the light to strike the edges of the sensor perpendicular! No one thinks of the little things that will make a wish not as wishful as you would want! Here is one review of many at Photozone that shows an old film lens on a FF dSLR. Note how there is a lot of light fall off at the corners and rather poor corner sharpness compared to lens made today for digital. However this very same lens would perform superb on an APS sensor!

Here is a quote from Klaus of Photozone "Fast lenses tend to suffer from high vignetting on full frame cameras and the AF-S 35/1.4 is no exception to this rule. In fact, with almost 2.2 EV wide open the amount of vignetting is exceptional (in a negative sense) and higher than on any other lens we've measured so far on the D3x."

How many with a lot of FF Pentax glass knew those lens will perform sub par on an FF sensor and much better on a APS sensor?

The reason of course is that film was very tolerate to the angle of the light, it could capture every little bit of light even at the lens edges even at extreme angles. Digital sensors have a deep pit compared to film. If light does not strike the pit head on you will lose some light! Film was many times more forgiving. All older film lens don't work so well with a digital sensor especially FF. With APS at least you capture the center part and have much higher IQ.

Think about it! Most have it backwards...

http://www.photozone.de/nikon_ff/551-nikkorafd2428ff?start=1

http://www.photozone.de/nikon_ff/596-nikkorafs3514ff?start=1

Feel free to research other FF film lens especially wider angle types on a FF dSLR.

--
jamesm007,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesm007/
http://s195.photobucket.com/albums/z77/jamesm700/