In with the X, out with the crummy. More on the new Fujis

Billx08

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From today's Thom :
Member said:
Fujifilm Locks in on X

Oct 5 (news and commentary)
--Fujifilm used to be all about S (S1, S2 Pro, S3 Pro, etc.). Then it was F (F30, F300, F550, etc). Well, get ready for X, probably due to the fact that the X100 sold 300,000 units already and is their first real hit in awhile (and which is about 300,000 more than Fujifilm thought they'd do prior to last Photokina show, where the camera was demonstrated to see whether people were actually interested or not).

Now, the X monicker is permeating through the lineup. We already have the compact sensor X10 that should be popping out any day now. Next up will be the bridge camera X-S1 (still with a compact sensor size, though). Finally, we have X??, a new mirrorless mount system that will appear in prototype form at CES next January and would be slated for spring 2012 production. If I'm interpreting correctly, X really means "better than the crummy F models we've been releasing lately."

The new mirrorless camera has a number of interesting elements to it. I'm still trying to fully decipher the materials from the Japanese press conference where Fujifilm made the announcement, but these things seem vaguely clear: (1) a new lens mount (i.e. not m4/3); (2) a larger than APS/DX sensor, but not as big as full frame/FX; (3) higher resolution and better noise handling than any existing FX sensor (which means more than 24mp and better than D3s); and (4) non-Bayer in nature. While some are thinking that this might mark the appearance of Fujifilm's three-layer organic sensor, I'd bet otherwise; I'm guessing non-filtered photosites coupled with quasi-Bayer.
http://bythom.com/

In other words, Fuji is on the move. I hope that the parent company is funding them well enough to succeed. It takes time to produce good lenses for one thing.
 
Bill
In other words, Fuji is on the move.
I agree. I do wish they had done it sooner! Oh well better late than never!
I hope that the parent company is funding them well enough to succeed. It takes time to produce good lenses for one thing.
Why a new lens mount? Just to be proprietary I guess but at what expense? It better be a killer system!!

--
JB
I am not a photographer, I’m just a guy that takes pictures.
http://buckshotsimageblog.blogspot.com/
 
I think this is great news! If Fuji gets its next couple of cameras right, it will spark similar innovation in other companies. Hopefully the consumer will win!
 
In other words, Fuji is on the move.
I agree. I do wish they had done it sooner! Oh well better late than never!
I'd like for some insider to some day write a history of the inner decision making. Who stalled Fuji and who helped get Fuji back on track. I'm assuming success although it's not a given. But this is a lot more exciting news than when the X100 was announced. Its sales success is what allowed all of this to happen.

I hope that the parent company is funding them well enough to succeed. It takes time to produce good lenses for one thing.
Why a new lens mount? Just to be proprietary I guess but at what expense? It better be a killer system!!
I thought that it might be m4/3 but that would probably have been the end of Fuji, with Fuji's customers buying lenses from Olympus and Panasonic. With a new sensor intermediate in size between APS-C and Full Frame Fuji can cater to pros that would be able to take advantage of much higher resolution than m4/3 could deliver, and all else being equal, higher DR, even without Fuji's high DR technology. Fuji's previous problems were 1. lower resolution than everyone else. 2. slow cameras. 3. higher prices than everyone else (for similar capability). Number 1 should no longer be a problem. Number 2 is a question mark, but maybe the X100 showed them the path not to follow. Number 3 is also a question mark, but maybe there will be more than one line of mirrorless bodies, with at least one being affordable for us'n and another for the pros, ala Canon and Nikon. I should have added 4. Fuji needs to provide better software or provide assistance to Adobe and other RAW developers. Silkypix is the albatross that weighs down the lower tier camera manufacturers and that will hurt them in the end.
 
I think this is great news! If Fuji gets its next couple of cameras right, it will spark similar innovation in other companies. Hopefully the consumer will win!
I don't think that Fuji needs to provide that spark. Olympus, Panasonic, Nikon and Sony are being plenty innovative already, and Canon must be getting ready to make a leap of its own. But I agree that this is great news. The only thing that's a little bit of a concern is whether the new super high resolution mirrorless sensor will really be all that high res. If it's 30mp on a larger than APS-C sensor that needs to be dialed back to 15mp to get its best image quality, as the EXR cameras needed to do, then whoops. The competition's sensors are already beyond that point. Then it will only be good instead of amazing. I wonder how all of this will be discussed in the forum, since Fuji is unlikely to disclose too much too quickly, and the speculation could tie up the forum for nearly the next year. Conspiracy theory alert! DPR knew about this in advance, and that's why they've rushed to create a cadre of volunteer moderators. :)
 
Interesting but is there any room for other makers to jump into the "system cameras" esp DSLR type ones.

Personally I've absolutely no interest in mirrorless be it compact type of SLR ish.
 
Naaa, the new moderators were probably a result of hijinks going on at a certain (ahem!) talk forum.

I can't believe that the sensor in this new mirrorless camera will be larger than APSC. The Sony NEX system uses APSC which is already huge, resulting in the requirement of huge lenses.

Here's another discussion on the new cameras, at a different forum.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=39519584
 
Interesting but is there any room for other makers to jump into the "system cameras" esp DSLR type ones.

Personally I've absolutely no interest in mirrorless be it compact type of SLR ish.
Don't keep us guessing. You might be completely satisfied with what you're currently using, but there could also be some drawbacks to mirrorless cameras that's keeping you out of their camp and it might be useful for others to know those drawbacks. I can think of a couple of them but they're getting smaller all the time and currently I think that the positives of the new cameras will substantially outweigh the negatives - excuse the pun, which really wasn't written with you in mind. Serendipity. :) What DSLRs did to film SLRs, mirrorless SLRs will eventually do to DSLRs.
 
You could have made the same argument before Panasonic and Olympus went m4/3.

Their 4/3 line was not growing, but they went smaller bodies and innovative tech and started gaining marketshare.

For all intents and purposes, Sony was fairly small potatoes in the DLSR race too, but they started gaining quickly with Nex and to a lesser degree SLT (based on sales rankings)

Fuji's market is the same one they attracted with the X100, current DSLR/mirrorless owners who want the best in the most compact package and willing to pay for it.

This market is big enough to make the X100 a continuing success story and should hold true for their new offering.

Long story short, there is always room as long as the product is great.
Interesting but is there any room for other makers to jump into the "system cameras" esp DSLR type ones.

Personally I've absolutely no interest in mirrorless be it compact type of SLR ish.
 
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Good analysis from both you and Thom.

Share your desire to someday learn what really motivated those folks and the hope this push is backed by solid resources (and not wishful thinking).
I'd like for some insider to some day write a history of the inner decision making. Who stalled Fuji and who helped get Fuji back on track. I'm assuming success although it's not a given. But this is a lot more exciting news than when the X100 was announced. Its sales success is what allowed all of this to happen.
I hope that the parent company is funding them well enough to succeed.
--
Tim
 
In my dream I can see Fuji and Sony co-operating to share the E-mount lens system for next year's new Fuji mirrorless camera. I can imagine that would give advantages to both companies, much as when Panny and Olympus agreed to share the new m4/3 system. I can envision the new Fuji X mirrorless also using an APSC sensor.
 
Don't keep us guessing. You might be completely satisfied with what you're currently using, but there could also be some drawbacks to mirrorless cameras that's keeping you out of their camp and it might be useful for others to know those drawbacks. I can think of a couple of them but they're getting smaller all the time and currently I think that the positives of the new cameras will substantially outweigh the negatives - excuse the pun, which really wasn't written with you in mind. Serendipity. :) What DSLRs did to film SLRs, mirrorless SLRs will eventually do to DSLRs.
Couple of points what mount with Fuji use? Another system to build up? I've 2 SLR mounts already that's enough for me.

There are pros and cons to the mirror and not having one. It would be unwise to dump the mirror to appease Video fans (not interested in that myself either)

You'll never get the "eye" view with an EVF and the power drain is far higher, lag..colours can be inaccurate too. Newbs argue they want WYSIWYG but it's never that simple.
 
Don't keep us guessing. You might be completely satisfied with what you're currently using, but there could also be some drawbacks to mirrorless cameras that's keeping you out of their camp and it might be useful for others to know those drawbacks. I can think of a couple of them but they're getting smaller all the time and currently I think that the positives of the new cameras will substantially outweigh the negatives - excuse the pun, which really wasn't written with you in mind. Serendipity. :) What DSLRs did to film SLRs, mirrorless SLRs will eventually do to DSLRs.
Couple of points what mount with Fuji use? Another system to build up? I've 2 SLR mounts already that's enough for me.
I have no idea what mount Fuji will use, but the mirrorless Fuji would be much better off with a new mount. Using an existing mount only means that existing full frame lenses from Canon or Nikon could be used, and Fuji probably wouldn't be able to get decent AF performance from them unless heaps of licensing dollars were paid, and that's one of the things that made the S#Pro cameras unprofitable. You also wouldn't be able to use m4/3 lenses without shooting in a "crop" mode, losing the advantage of the much larger sensor. No, a new mount is the only thing that makes any sense, and it would allow very small, high quality wide angle lenses to be used. I realize that you and many others won't want to waste money switching to a new system, or paying a lot more to add a third system, but Fuji has to do what's best for Fuji, not what's best for every photographer on the planet, which would be impossible anyway.

There are pros and cons to the mirror and not having one. It would be unwise to dump the mirror to appease Video fans (not interested in that myself either)
I'm not a video fan but I'd love to see mirrors go away. They make cameras unnecessarily large, make unobtrusive shooting almost impossible, reduce image quality somewhat even when shooting on a good tripod, reduce camera life and make cameras more expensive due to the critical alignment and assembly that isn't needed with CD/Live View cameras.

You'll never get the "eye" view with an EVF and the power drain is far higher, lag..colours can be inaccurate too. Newbs argue they want WYSIWYG but it's never that simple.
Power drain may be greater, but it's much less than you imagine. Are you aware that some of Canon's P&S cameras can operate in playback mode using the LCD for up to 20 hours using a single set of AA batteries? Battery life should be even better using AMOLEDs for the LCDs and EVFs. Inaccurate color in a viewfinder is about as meaningless as anyone could imagine, because no matter how little the optical viewfinder changes color, it has zero influence on the final image. With an EVF, if the camera's white balance is set incorrectly you'll probably notice it immediately. With an optical viewfinder you'll probably find out too late to correct the WB unless you chimp with the LCD, which would be as inaccurate as the EVF. Lag is improving, and in the not too distant future it won't be a concern at all, and unlike optical viewfinders, EVFs can gain the brightness, allowing you to see the subject in light too dim to see what's in front of you with an optical viewfinder. Today's best OVFs provide a generally better experience, but the best EVFs aren't far behind. I like the fact that EVFs can use high magnification to aid manual focusing. How do you do this with an OVF?
 
The new mirrorless Fuji could certainly use the Sony-NEX e-mount. That would give them shared access to a whole world of DSLR, SLR and 16mm lenses, with adaptetrs.
 
BillX08 wrote:

"Maybe, but I'm not familiar with Sony's lenses. Do the e-mount lenses have image circles that cover full frame sensors? They wouldn't have to cover that much, but with their larger size of the new Fuji sensor they'd have to cover more than APS-C size sensors, otherwise sides and corners of the frame would either suffer from vignetting or from reduced image quality."

All I know is that I can adapt any Nikon, Canon, Olympus, etc. DSLR lens to my NEX3.

I just picked up a 20 year old Minolta 50mm f2 SLR lens in perfect condition for $30, in new condition. The MD adapter cost an extra &20. Manual focus with peak is a breeze...something

Only the 4/3m lenses don't work.

If Sony undertakes to permit Fuji in on this e-mount formula, there should be advantages to both companies. Especially the sharing of more lenses (autofocus, OEM)
plus the adaptability of a world of heritage lenses as mentioned.
 
Your entire argument is based on the unsupported idea that a larger-than-APSC sensor will be used. Is so, your argument has merit.

Plan 2 is that indeed the EVIL-X may be an APSC size. That in fact is currently the size of 2 mirrorless cameras already as well as some DSLR's. For Fuji to use something still larger IMHO is unrealistic...just look at how fat the NEX lenses are, already!

If Plan 2 is correct, then it is much more likely, based on recent history, that an APSC sensor will be used for the Fuji X, than the sharing of the e-mount idea...the latter being my own imagineering, I'm afraid.

OK it's very early on, so I suggest carrying on these as possibilities and leave it at that, for now. Until more info. become available.
 
Yes your choice of words is better than mine.

The Samsung N200 also uses an APSC sensor. It is entirely quite likely that the concept of a Fuji-Sony lens-mount sharing agreement is quite wrong. It is just as likely that Fuji could enter into a lens-mount agreement with Samsung. Their lenses and therefore mount appear to be a slightly smaller, more practical size than Fuji's. (Whose lenses are huge, for a mirrorless.) So we agree, time to drop this for now.
Thanks!
 

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