WHy is dpr showing such poor quality raw shots for the A77?

Except in the example shown, the jpg looks softer that the d7k due to noise reduction. Whats the sense in having 24 mp if it has no more detail than lower models?

ACR will put a final version out that shows the excellance of the sensor, its not there yet though.
 
Move the compare tool down a smige below that to show 'Product of Italy' and a few paper clips and your observation turns on its head.
Look at the overall image, I've studied it carefully and the a77 is performing much better than the D7000 in nearly all the image, the area you point out is one of the very few ehere the d7000 approaches the A77. You have to remember when they are printed at the same size there will be a further imporvement in the A77 performance relative to the D7000, not that it needs it.

--
IQ is not judged exclusively by high iso noise performance
Something you don't understand about Nikon JPEGs default settings is that they are set to soft and contrast is low while Sony and Canon default settings add more contrast and sharpening by default settings. It makes a big difference in the apparent image quality. When sharpness and contrast is added to the D7000 JPEGs they will look much better and similar to the RAW files. For JPEG shooting Nikon D7000 owners typically set the in camera sharpness to 6 and up contrast as well.

That said, the a77 JPEGs look much better than earlier JPEG images posted. I am sure the a77 RAW image quality will be sorted out in time. ACR did a horrible job with the a700 RAW files and this seems to be the case with the a77 as well.

Best regards,
Jon
 
DPR could have avoided all the criticism with a closing remark or short statement that they too were disappointed in the RAW results and the fact that the software for processing was not up to the challenge just yet. Something short and sweet and we would have simply agreed. As they decided to leave it out, it makes the A77 appear worse then we all know it probably can be. In that regard, DPR could easily have changed the tone of what we see and read (or read into.)
--
Ken
Sony Alpha Seventy Seven
Maybe you should ask them to appologize to the A77...! :)
 
All jpegs at iso3200. Here the A77 looks the best, D7000 sucks, 7D is not as good as A77. 60D looks OK but small. Perhaps I'm wrong but any unbiased observer would conclude that the A77 was performing very well based on this comparison, but look at the raws and the story is reversed.

Take home message though that in camera jpegs at iso3200 are better from the A77 than the 7D and D7000, its closest rivals.



Based on the bad halos around the reds it seems Sony has tweaked the sharpening quite high. 7D seem to have somewhat high sharpening as well while Nikon and 60D use softer settings.

Despite the hard sharpening the A77 seem not to give much info in fine textures like in the feathers, which suggest pretty hars NR as well. But since the arrangement of the feathers is not the same in different camera pics, no possibilities to draw any definite conclusions.
 
I don't think it's fair to beat up on DPReview when the problem really is Sony's.

Why is Sony incapable of working with Adobe/Capture One/whoever (not to mention their own cr@p converter IDC) to get a great RAW converter on the market until a year or more after introducing a camera?

IMO that's the real issue, not that somebody (DPReview) used a cr@p converter, it's there there currently only are cr@p converters.

Russ
While I agree with blaming Sony for releasing a camera with grossly-inadequate RAW software, my complaint with DPReview is that they have succumbed to the pressure to get the "samples" online ASAP... just so they can "stay competitive" with other photo-review sites.

Why can't they just state: "Here are the jpegs, we'll add the RAW files when Sony gets off their lazy butts and produces a decent RAW converter - because they are currently un-useable."

Wouldn't that kill two birds with one stone? Shaming Sony for their crappy software, and preventing the publication of useless - if not misleading - samples?

Mike
--



My Picasa albums:
http://picasaweb.google.com/mjvlev
 
They do not need to maintain yet another private RAW file format, and wine that no one has a converter. DPR shows what we should see, not wish thinking results.

DNG would be a better choice. Nikon does even worse in this aspect: They maintain TWO raw formats, a complete waste of resources.
 
I blame DP for using a crappy converter but I also blame Sony for including a crappy IDC, don't you think?
I'm starting to wonder what is going on here. I see the A77 studio comparison shots, and with jpeg iso3200 the A77 wipes the damn floor compared with the 7D and D7000, much better performance.

Then I look at the raws and they suck . Why? because they are using a crappy alpha version convertor from adobe. Why are they doing this? They know people make decisions on what to buy using such tools, so releasing such poor images is producing a real lasting impression on the perception of the a77. Just look at the comments.

I compared the nikon d7000 jpeg and raw a77 jpeg and raw, and they are mirror images, with the A77 jpeg much better than the A77 raw, and the D7000 raw much better than the D7000 jpeg.

It's a very effective way of making the A77 look bad, and undeservedly so, based on the quality of the jpegs. Why dpr do this is beyond me, if the raw conversion is not ready, simply don't use it.
--
IQ is not judged exclusively by high iso noise performance
 
First of all I agree with you regarding how DPR processes its RAW files. For me it's far from the optimal process.

Anyway that could apply also for the RAWs of other cameras...

I downloaded some RAWs and processed them using Raw Therapee, equalizing WB (setting it on same patch), with no NR nor sharpening at all. This is a crop I've made for a thread in a spanish forum in a "which is which?" game, and it's a comparison between A77 @ ISO 400 and D7000 @ ISO 800 and upsized to 24 MP (just bicubic interpolation in PS):





So my point is: yes, RAW processing from DPR isn't that good, but that also applies to the rest of cameras, and so differences stay about the same.

Saludos!

--
Please, excuse my poor english...
 
Hi,
I'm starting to wonder what is going on here. I see the A77 studio comparison shots, and with jpeg iso3200 the A77 wipes the damn floor compared with the 7D and D7000, much better performance.
Really ?

Look at the fuzzy balls in the black box. The D7k is by far the best, followed by the 7D and than the A77 with complete smeared out balls.

Sorry, can't call the A77 : "being much better" or "Wipes the damn floor".

Kind regards,
Sandor.
 
I don't think it's fair to beat up on DPReview when the problem really is Sony's.

IDC is a joke. Look at George's attempt to get a usable RAW conversion:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=39438719

Are we really supposed to ignore the camera's RAW capability? Or the lack thereof?

If you're a pro, relying on RAW workflow, you NEED to know that you can't rely on Sony's RAW files.

I'm NOT a pro, and I'll be quite happy with the JPG quality until RAW support materializes.

But right now, Sony are only getting what they deserve in the RAW arena.

It looks bad because it IS bad. And I want honest reviews. Don't be hiding bad 'stuff' because it will be better 'soon'. I want to know what I'm getting today, not potential vapor ware of the future.

Now if you said DPReview used abc converter, who does a cr@p job of converting, when xyz converter does a great job, then I'd say you would have a valid complaint.

Why is Sony incapable of working with Adobe/Capture One/whoever (not to mention their own cr@p converter IDC) to get a great RAW converter on the market until a year or more after introducing a camera?

IMO that's the real issue, not that somebody (DPReview) used a cr@p converter, it's there there currently only are cr@p converters.

Russ
Maybe so, but IMO, DPReview should have left out the RAW comparisons at this point. The JPEGs look good, so why bother with the crummy RAW images? Imaging Resource never did update their a700 JPEG images beyond version 2 firmware, but people are still using them for comparison. Once the bad stuff gets out there it seems to linger far too long.

Best regards,
Jon
 
Why don't you ask Sony why they did not provide early code, specs and guidance to Adobe for the A77 knowing full well that Adobe products (Lightroom and PS/ACR) are the most popular image processing tools on the market.

If you think about it, A manufacturer like Sony has a lot to gain from making sure that RAW processors produce the best image quality for their cameras as the manufacturer provided free software like Sony IDC can never compete successfully with the 3rd party RAW processors and image editors.

However, Sony does not provide good support to 3rd party RAW processors and their cameras are supported the least compared to Canon and Nikon. For example, there is no Sony Alpha SDK and no 3rd party software supports tethered capture for Sony DSLRs.
I'm starting to wonder what is going on here. I see the A77 studio comparison shots, and with jpeg iso3200 the A77 wipes the damn floor compared with the 7D and D7000, much better performance.

Then I look at the raws and they suck . Why? because they are using a crappy alpha version convertor from adobe. Why are they doing this? They know people make decisions on what to buy using such tools, so releasing such poor images is producing a real lasting impression on the perception of the a77. Just look at the comments.

I compared the nikon d7000 jpeg and raw a77 jpeg and raw, and they are mirror images, with the A77 jpeg much better than the A77 raw, and the D7000 raw much better than the D7000 jpeg.

It's a very effective way of making the A77 look bad, and undeservedly so, based on the quality of the jpegs. Why dpr do this is beyond me, if the raw conversion is not ready, simply don't use it.
--
IQ is not judged exclusively by high iso noise performance
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hopeiseternal/
 
Why don't you ask Sony why they did not provide early code, specs and guidance to Adobe for the A77
How you know they didnt ?

Question that should be asked is why DPR published results from a un-official version.

"It's a non-public pre-release version of a forthcoming build. We know a guy who knows a guy... ;)"
 
So my point is: yes, RAW processing from DPR isn't that good, but that also applies to the rest of cameras, and so differences stay about the same.
It doesn't apply to the rest of the cameras because they are not having raw conversions done with an alpha or beta version of ACR by DPR.

The fact you have done a conversion in another program is fine but until we see what a production version ACR can do with Sony A77 raw files then we are not comparing apples to apples.

I really hope DPR does not publish the review with this version of ACR used to provide the output.

Until the review is finalised I think it is best to stick to comparing the JPEG's if people are using the DPR comparison tool.

So I stopped looking at the A77 RAW's myself and had a play about and I have to say though the A900 which I compared looks very good compared to the D7000 and Canon 7D (in RAW).
 
Why can't they just state: "Here are the jpegs, we'll add the RAW files when Sony gets off their lazy butts and produces a decent RAW converter - because they are currently un-useable."
Sony released IDC with the A100 in 2006. I think it is version 4 now. People for all that time have said it is no good. If dpreview waits until "Sony gets off their lazy butts and produces a decent RAW converter" then they may never publish any raw results. :D

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
 
Why don't you ask Sony why they did not provide early code, specs and guidance to Adobe for the A77 knowing full well that Adobe products (Lightroom and PS/ACR) are the most popular image processing tools on the market.
Exactly. This is a Sony failure. They are a big company and just like Canon and Nikon they could work with Adobe and others to get early raw support. Time after time they don't though.
If you think about it, A manufacturer like Sony has a lot to gain from making sure that RAW processors produce the best image quality for their cameras as the manufacturer provided free software like Sony IDC can never compete successfully with the 3rd party RAW processors and image editors.
+1
However, Sony does not provide good support to 3rd party RAW processors and their cameras are supported the least compared to Canon and Nikon. For example, there is no Sony Alpha SDK and no 3rd party software supports tethered capture for Sony DSLRs.
+1

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
 
They do not need to maintain yet another private RAW file format, and wine that no one has a converter. DPR shows what we should see, not wish thinking results.
How is DPR showing what we should see using a RAW converter no one else can use and is a beta version of the program?

And lack of support in ACR for a new camera from any manufacturer not using DNG is the normal state of play.

What is not normal here is DPR published conversions using a beta version of ACR.
DNG would be a better choice. Nikon does even worse in this aspect: They maintain TWO raw formats, a complete waste of resources.
In the real world Sony, Nikon, Canon, Oly, Pansonic and others all have propriety RAW formats so they do not think DNG is a better choice.

Sony is not different than the others here and while you can argue for DNG it is not widely used so you can't blame Sony for DPR using a beta version of a program most people use to convert a variety of RAW formats.
 
Why don't you ask Sony why they did not provide early code, specs and guidance to Adobe for the A77 knowing full well that Adobe products (Lightroom and PS/ACR) are the most popular image processing tools on the market.
Exactly. This is a Sony failure. They are a big company and just like Canon and Nikon they could work with Adobe and others to get early raw support. Time after time they don't though.
One question. How do you know that they don't?
If you think about it, A manufacturer like Sony has a lot to gain from making sure that RAW processors produce the best image quality for their cameras as the manufacturer provided free software like Sony IDC can never compete successfully with the 3rd party RAW processors and image editors.
+1
However, Sony does not provide good support to 3rd party RAW processors and their cameras are supported the least compared to Canon and Nikon. For example, there is no Sony Alpha SDK and no 3rd party software supports tethered capture for Sony DSLRs.
+1

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
 
One question. How do you know that they don't?
I just look at the evidence but, of course, there is no way for me to know for sure. I get your point though. Sony may in fact work closely with Adobe way out front of a camera's release but over and over Adobe decides to screw Sony by taking a very long time to provide good quality support. How long did it take for the A700? 2-3 years? I am trying to imagine the motivation for screwing Sony when Sony works so hard to help them?

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
 
If you think about it, A manufacturer like Sony has a lot to gain from making sure that RAW processors produce the best image quality for their cameras as the manufacturer provided free software like Sony IDC can never compete successfully with the 3rd party RAW processors and image editors.
Why not? It is just software that processes data stored in a format they know about to produce files in another format which is a well understood standard i.e. normally JPEG.

It isn't rocket science and so in my opinion the fact they may not produce very good RAW converters is not because they can't compete but because they do things like make the IDC conversions mimic the in-carmera JPEG conversion engine. In other words the approach is wrong not that they are somehow incapable of competing.

In theory any camera makers RAW conversions should be better than a third party supplier as the camera maker has all the knowledge pertaining to their own raw format.
 

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