Newbies with entry levels digital SLR's now taking 3,000 + images @ Weddings. They produce an image, then do a post processing of it and Photoshop it to death and it looks pretty impressive. Original photo has major exposure issues along with the posing, however adding a ton of post-processing and 150+ hours editing for a $400/12 hour gig and they could be taking over the field.
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OK Wedding Pros, new competition attacks
- Thread starter Taddy
- Start date
Les Berkley
Senior Member
How will they do this? If the photographic skills are minimal, their darkroom abilities are likely to be the same.
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http://www.artisticlens.com
http://www.artisticlens.com/blog
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Richard Weisgrau
Senior Member
I don't have the temperament to shoot wedding so I don't do it. However, if I did I'd be please to hear that my competition was doing as suggested by the OP. It would mean that they would self-destruct in a brief period of time.
In reality I think that wedding photographers and I have the same kind of competitive problem. The guy who can do an acceptable job (not great but acceptable) and who just undercuts going rates. They too will eventually collapse because you cannot run a business for long without profitability. Problem is that there seems to be an endless supply of such creatures.
Personally, I do not worry about it. I just keep selling what I do to the people who buy what I do. If nothing else, the law of averages gets me enough work not to complain.
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Richard Weisgrau
http://www.weisgrau.com
Author of
The Real Business of Photography
The Photographer's Guide to Negotiating
Selling Your Photography
Licensing Photography
In reality I think that wedding photographers and I have the same kind of competitive problem. The guy who can do an acceptable job (not great but acceptable) and who just undercuts going rates. They too will eventually collapse because you cannot run a business for long without profitability. Problem is that there seems to be an endless supply of such creatures.
Personally, I do not worry about it. I just keep selling what I do to the people who buy what I do. If nothing else, the law of averages gets me enough work not to complain.
--
Richard Weisgrau
http://www.weisgrau.com
Author of
The Real Business of Photography
The Photographer's Guide to Negotiating
Selling Your Photography
Licensing Photography
slowhands214238
Veteran Member
Drop a lens, snap a foot off a flash, have a body die, a memory card faiul and they too start to learn there is a COST to being in business, it;s not all fun.
And if they come down with the flu or have a kidney stone the day of that big $500 event and they blow it off... they start to see the light at the end of the tunnel is just the train coming at them.
And if they come down with the flu or have a kidney stone the day of that big $500 event and they blow it off... they start to see the light at the end of the tunnel is just the train coming at them.
PenguinPhotoCo
Veteran Member
Wendy's opened across from McDonalds! Subway is opening on the other corner! Crap, here comes BK!
They all do well.
Why? Each is different in what they offer Each has a unique selling proposition.
Now retail is a very different thing - Wooworth was king, then Montgomery Wards, then Sears then Kmart and now Walmart is king and the first 2 are long gone. Why?
They all sell the same thing and sell in on price alone - I see no difference in kmart or walmart (or the old woolworths for that matter, or clicks', hecks, hills, zayres or any of 100 other regional competitors I've been in over the decades).
If you're selling on price alone and have nothing unique or special to offer otherwise you are doomed if you are not the lowest priced one in your market. Period.
If you can offer something unique, special, different - a reason for people to choose you over all others (besides price...) then you can survive and even thrive.
Success is all up to you.
This may be a bad economy, there may be studios folding, there may be a flood of part times out there - but year to date my sales are higher than ever. Number of weddings are down but avg per wedding is way up - 30% over last year, I've got more booked for '12 than I've had coming into any year let alone months before the year begins and at a higher average - and weddings are my worst performing area of service I offer!
Taddy, if you're having that much difficulty you need to seek professional help - PPA consulting, find a mentor or two among those that teach, hire a consultant, change/tweak your marketing/style/pricing/sales approach.
--
Learn the science. Practice the art.
They all do well.
Why? Each is different in what they offer Each has a unique selling proposition.
Now retail is a very different thing - Wooworth was king, then Montgomery Wards, then Sears then Kmart and now Walmart is king and the first 2 are long gone. Why?
They all sell the same thing and sell in on price alone - I see no difference in kmart or walmart (or the old woolworths for that matter, or clicks', hecks, hills, zayres or any of 100 other regional competitors I've been in over the decades).
If you're selling on price alone and have nothing unique or special to offer otherwise you are doomed if you are not the lowest priced one in your market. Period.
If you can offer something unique, special, different - a reason for people to choose you over all others (besides price...) then you can survive and even thrive.
Success is all up to you.
This may be a bad economy, there may be studios folding, there may be a flood of part times out there - but year to date my sales are higher than ever. Number of weddings are down but avg per wedding is way up - 30% over last year, I've got more booked for '12 than I've had coming into any year let alone months before the year begins and at a higher average - and weddings are my worst performing area of service I offer!
Taddy, if you're having that much difficulty you need to seek professional help - PPA consulting, find a mentor or two among those that teach, hire a consultant, change/tweak your marketing/style/pricing/sales approach.
--
Learn the science. Practice the art.
Robert Hoy
Senior Member
Who says they would do 150 hours of editing? I sometimes see notes about just burning the camera JPGs to a DVD and hand it over no "editing" at all. And I also recall hearing of lots of exposure adjustments from wedding photographers who shot negative film years ago. So exposure adjustments are nothing new.
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http://www.photographybyhoy.com
http://www.facebook.com/Photography.by.Hoy
http://roberthoy.zenfolio.com/
John Motts
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It's the latter which is far more common. Shoot and burn, hand over the original jpeg files with no effort whatsoever.
Faintandfuzzy
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I'm not losing any business to these $400 shooters....so I'm not worried about it. I've seen plenty of the results though from these $400 shooters....and I burst out laughing every time.
John Motts
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I'm glad you find it a joke that these people are bringing such disgrace to our profession.
Faintandfuzzy
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These jokes were around 20+ years ago when I started. Absolutely nothing has changed. The real shock is that people think this is something new....in which case I'd say they've had their heads buried in the sand.
If you are offering something of value above and beyond these $400 shooters....and I don't just mean in deliverables but in image appeal, then you've got nothing to worry about. If people view you're work and don't see any benefit in paying $2500+ with you over $400 for them, then either you haven't sold your differentiation very well, or your images don't sell themselves.
John Motts
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I was doing weddings 20 years ago and there were nowhere near as many cowboys as there are now. Why do you think wedding photography has fallen in price in real terms?
Fact is that different sectors of any market affect the prices of other sectors of the market. It affects the prices of those who are slightly further upmarket. Those prices then affect the next sector and so the knock-on effect goes.
Do you honestly feel that you are completely and totally immune to this?
M
Michael Thomas Mitchell
Guest
I'm in agreement with you, John. Plenty of "cowboys" around 20 years ago, but, as you say, nothing like today. The technology has never been cheaper, and people need to make money. The internet makes it easy for someone to start a website, advertise on craigslist, and suddenly become a "pro". That just wasn't possible with such ease or on such a wide scale 20 years ago. Plus, they're making more "white noise" that obscures the legit photogs. By that, I mean how 20 years ago a yellow page listing and street sign offered at least some level of legitimacy that helped the prospective client distinguish the photog who was serious from the mere "cowboy". True, it wasn't a clear indicator of actual quality, but these things at least kept it from being too easy to join "the club". Now, a mere beginner can create a great looking website with off-the-shelf software and appear no different than a 20 year veteran. And if their price is lower (and it likely will be), they'll get the job.
And yes, they're bringing the reputation of our industry down.
And yes, they're bringing the reputation of our industry down.
Faintandfuzzy
Senior Member
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Just out of curiousity, how does that new photographer with no experience display a catalog of photographs that appear no different than a 20 year veteran?
M
Michael Thomas Mitchell
Guest
A good question with no single answer.
First, I hope that I didn't suggest that these photogs' catalogs were "no different than a 20 year veteran". It was the quality of the website that I was referring to. Websites don't have to have a lot of photographs, and many non-photogs frankly can't distinguish good quality from bad. With some clever work, a prospective bride can easily be duped into believing she's hiring a pro when in fact she may be hiring a total beginner.
I'll use as an example someone who posted for advise from the pros in here back during the summer. They had their first upcoming wedding and was seeking BASIC information. Curious, I went to their website. Sure enough, they advertised themselves as a portrait and wedding photographer seeking clients. Nice looking site, by the way. The photography wasn't very good, but the site was attractive enough so that a non-photographer (ie, unsuspecting wedding client) might not ever notice. The site did, however, feature plenty of casual outdoor portraits. A trip to their pbase site lead me to believe that it was all family members.
At least that person was honest. Some years ago, I was alerted by a fellow forum member that another person may have been using some of my own photographs on their website. Sure enough, a quick view revealed that the photographer had taken shots from not just my website but from others' as well in order to promote his "business", presumably until he had shots of his own to use.
I have also seen instances in which a photographer uses shots from weddings in which he was not the official photographer but merely a guest. This was discovered just recently in this very forum when a photographer last spring was seeking basic advise for his first upcoming wedding (big surprise). When I asked how it could be his first when he had a website showing wedding photographs presumably taken by him (not very good... another big surprise), he had no problem admitting that he had only been a guest.
Last month, I attended a family reunion and one of my cousins showed off her wedding photographs on a tablet. (She had originally wanted me to shoot her wedding, but I had been booked on her date from many months prior to her engagement.) She actually was very disappointed with her shots, and upon seeing them I completely understood why. They completely lacked basic photographic competence. I actually had to ask a second time who shot the pictures, as they looked like they were taken with a point-and-shoot by a guest. (I didn't dare let her know how bad they REALLY were. She was already upset enough about them, though still wanted to share her wedding pictures with her family.) And by the way, this was no cheap affair. They actually had a helicopter come and take them from the reception, among other exotic things. Anyway, I got the name of the photographer and looked him up. Looking at his website, I was almost fooled at first glance. I could see how she was easily taken. Looking more closely showed, however, how little substance there was underneath so much website style.
The point I am (and was) trying to make is that it's far easier to put up an impressive looking website with a few heavily-doctored (or even stolen) images than it ever was when we had to have an inventory of sample albums to show off, and if not a full studio, then at least a reception area to meet with clients and really show them who you were as a photographer. Twenty years ago, I NEVER met a prospective client at a coffee shop. Today, half of them want to book without meeting in person at all, much less come to my home or studio. This makes it easy for the "cowboys" to pose as something they are not. And when they don't do a good job, our own reputations are bundled right along with them as part of the wedding photography industry.
First, I hope that I didn't suggest that these photogs' catalogs were "no different than a 20 year veteran". It was the quality of the website that I was referring to. Websites don't have to have a lot of photographs, and many non-photogs frankly can't distinguish good quality from bad. With some clever work, a prospective bride can easily be duped into believing she's hiring a pro when in fact she may be hiring a total beginner.
I'll use as an example someone who posted for advise from the pros in here back during the summer. They had their first upcoming wedding and was seeking BASIC information. Curious, I went to their website. Sure enough, they advertised themselves as a portrait and wedding photographer seeking clients. Nice looking site, by the way. The photography wasn't very good, but the site was attractive enough so that a non-photographer (ie, unsuspecting wedding client) might not ever notice. The site did, however, feature plenty of casual outdoor portraits. A trip to their pbase site lead me to believe that it was all family members.
At least that person was honest. Some years ago, I was alerted by a fellow forum member that another person may have been using some of my own photographs on their website. Sure enough, a quick view revealed that the photographer had taken shots from not just my website but from others' as well in order to promote his "business", presumably until he had shots of his own to use.
I have also seen instances in which a photographer uses shots from weddings in which he was not the official photographer but merely a guest. This was discovered just recently in this very forum when a photographer last spring was seeking basic advise for his first upcoming wedding (big surprise). When I asked how it could be his first when he had a website showing wedding photographs presumably taken by him (not very good... another big surprise), he had no problem admitting that he had only been a guest.
Last month, I attended a family reunion and one of my cousins showed off her wedding photographs on a tablet. (She had originally wanted me to shoot her wedding, but I had been booked on her date from many months prior to her engagement.) She actually was very disappointed with her shots, and upon seeing them I completely understood why. They completely lacked basic photographic competence. I actually had to ask a second time who shot the pictures, as they looked like they were taken with a point-and-shoot by a guest. (I didn't dare let her know how bad they REALLY were. She was already upset enough about them, though still wanted to share her wedding pictures with her family.) And by the way, this was no cheap affair. They actually had a helicopter come and take them from the reception, among other exotic things. Anyway, I got the name of the photographer and looked him up. Looking at his website, I was almost fooled at first glance. I could see how she was easily taken. Looking more closely showed, however, how little substance there was underneath so much website style.
The point I am (and was) trying to make is that it's far easier to put up an impressive looking website with a few heavily-doctored (or even stolen) images than it ever was when we had to have an inventory of sample albums to show off, and if not a full studio, then at least a reception area to meet with clients and really show them who you were as a photographer. Twenty years ago, I NEVER met a prospective client at a coffee shop. Today, half of them want to book without meeting in person at all, much less come to my home or studio. This makes it easy for the "cowboys" to pose as something they are not. And when they don't do a good job, our own reputations are bundled right along with them as part of the wedding photography industry.
awphoto
Forum Enthusiast
OH MY GOD, No, surely not. This is the first time I have heard of this.
Please tell me it isn't so..
Please tell me it isn't so..
Les Berkley
Senior Member
By stealing the images from other people's sites, of course. Yes, it happens.
--
http://www.artisticlens.com
http://www.artisticlens.com/blog
Hawaiian Punch
Senior Member
True professionals want you to take all the 12 hour/$400 bookings you can! That way we won't have to waste our time dealing with low end clients who only shop price.
Faintandfuzzy
Senior Member
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Now that's the truth!
KAllen
Senior Member
Sell sell sell, get all your gear on ebay before anyone else thinks of this.
150 hours editing will not leave much time for finding and shooting jobs.
I blame the invention of the Light meter since then anybody can get a correctly exposed picture.
Kevin.
http://www.treewithoutabird.com
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