Don't See the Audience for V1 or J1

Obviously Nikon has done its research and thinks there is a market for these cameras. But I think there is a disconnect. The Nikon 1 system may have success, but not with these two dumbed down cameras.

Clearly the V1 and J1 are not aimed at the current DSLR owner looking for a smaller system camera. So it is aimed at casual compact user looking for better quality picture. But I don't see this group of users being particularly interested in "interchangeable" lenses. If you are not interested in A/S/P selection, shutter speed/F stop, you're probably not too excited at the thought of changing lenses either. Also, these users are not likely to buy lenses beyond the kit lens....so how does that benefit Nikon financially?

The high quality compacts already do pretty well in the picture quality area. So the new 2.7X sensor size will probably be good enough for the enthusiast looking for the a good smaller DSLR micro camera. I think in this area, Nikon's decision is fine as the cameras will be quite compact.

The system may be successful with an additional camera body aimed at the amateur enthusiast. But clearly more manual controls and menu selections must be on offer. I think only the enthusiast and pro audience will create a demand for the additional lenses which Nikon needs for the system to be successful. If they don't provide a more enthusiast oriented camera body, then the Nikon 1 system will be just two compact camera replacements with an assortment of additional lenses and system accessories that no one buys.

Then again, Nikon's research may show that I haven't a clue what I'm talking about. We'll see.

It's for regular people that already have a cameraphone and are interested in getting a decent upgrade to their old P&S. They want better IQ and the speed of a DSLR but without the size or need to adjust settings. Changing lenses is ok because it's easy and looks cool.

Pretty much sounds like everyone I know that doesn't read dpreview. These are also the folks with iphones, ipads, and lots of disposable income. Do these folks really care about sensor size differences between N1 and m4/3? Probably not, especially if it turns out Nikon's IQ is actually decent.

I think you underestimate these consumers. They'll do some research before dropping north of $500 bucks for a camera system. They find that for a little more they can get a "real" camera. Nikon should have released a NEX-7 competitor...
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Raoul Duke

I agree with you Raoul.

The North of $500 crowd is the crowd that visits Dpreview...and they want a camera they can adjust more easily. The folks who just want an easier camera to use with better image quality, are unlikely to buy anything other than the J1...if that...and will not likely spend money on the rest of the system.

But if Nikon comes out with a more enthusiast oriented version (an E1), they might sell to the Dpreview crowd.

Raoul Duke said:

I think you underestimate these consumers. They'll do some research before dropping north of $500 bucks for a camera system. They find that for a little more they can get a "real" camera. Nikon should have released a NEX-7 competitor...
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Raoul Duke

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I see the audience Nikon is trying to target but I'm not sure how successful they will be. This camera sits right in between the advanced compact and the consumer DSLR which is what Nikon intended. The problem is that the J1/V1 may not have enough for the DSLR user to buy it as a backup/smaller camera solution -- and -- it may have too much for the advanced compact user that wants a small, reasonably priced, easy to use solution. My guess is that it will sell enough to both the DSLR users and the advanced compact users but it won't be a huge success. It will get Nikon into the mirrorless market which they can build on in future products.

I get the feeling that Nikon saw Olympus prices and jumped in under the impression that they can charge big bucks for small cameras.

They did not compute that Olympus and Panasonic are actually approaching DSLR results a lot of the time. The Nikon 1 does not, simply,and the enthusiasts that are spending $ 1500 and up for a complete micro 4/3 will see the Nikon 1 at the same size and weight camera and lenses and smaller sensor results.

Photo-Wiz said:

The North of $500 crowd is the crowd that visits Dpreview...and they want a camera they can adjust more easily. The folks who just want an easier camera to use with better image quality, are unlikely to buy anything other than the J1...if that...and will not likely spend money on the rest of the system.

But if Nikon comes out with a more enthusiast oriented version (an E1), they might sell to the Dpreview crowd.

Raoul Duke said:

I think you underestimate these consumers. They'll do some research before dropping north of $500 bucks for a camera system. They find that for a little more they can get a "real" camera. Nikon should have released a NEX-7 competitor...
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Raoul Duke

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Not disagreeing with you but wondering how you know what results you get from the J1/V1?

I agree. I mean, they make the P7100, so they obviously know what sort of handling and user interface would appeal to serious shooters. But then they release these two seriously simplified models. This forum would be ecstatic if at least one of the models had a P7100-style user interface. Just my 2 cents..

I whole heartedly agree. P7100 interface on Nikon 1 system...then it may attract more serious amateurs (i.e. Dpreview users).

pjw88 said:

I agree. I mean, they make the P7100, so they obviously know what sort of handling and user interface would appeal to serious shooters. But then they release these two seriously simplified models. This forum would be ecstatic if at least one of the models had a P7100-style user interface. Just my 2 cents..

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Raoul Duke said:

I think you underestimate these consumers. They'll do some research before dropping north of $500 bucks for a camera system. They find that for a little more they can get a "real" camera. Nikon should have released a NEX-7 competitor...
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Raoul Duke

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I think you misjudge consumers. Have you actually worked in a retail store and observed customer behavior? There are boatloads of people who don't do their research and rely on salespeoples' word as their "research". There are also people who don't want a "real" camera; they just want something small that takes better pictures than their point-and-shoot. Whenever the place I worked at had a Pen on display, we'd get people asking about it and subsequently we'd get people asking for it. These people often look at Rebels (my store mostly only carried Canon and occasionally had other brands in stock) and gripe that they're too big. The price wasn't the biggest concern.

A NEX-7 competitor would appeal to the people that read websites such as this one, but it has limited appeal for the mainstream customers. It's got too many dials and doohickeys that they'll never use since mainstream customers generally stay in green box mode. The GF3 and E-PM1 de-emphasize PSAM modes for a reason: the target customers don't care. Likewise, the target customer for the J1 won't care, either. The V1 confuses me, though. I really have no idea what Nikon was thinking there.

Photo-Wiz said:

Clearly the V1 and J1 are not aimed at the current DSLR owner looking for a smaller system camera. So it is aimed at casual compact user looking for better quality picture. But I don't see this group of users being particularly interested in "interchangeable" lenses. If you are not interested in A/S/P selection, shutter speed/F stop, you're probably not too excited at the thought of changing lenses either. Also, these users are not likely to buy lenses beyond the kit lens....so how does that benefit Nikon financially?

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Remember the 1/1.7" sensor Olympus 5050 with a fast lens? Why can't we have a similar camera with a 1" sensor, is what I'm totally confounded by. Nikon should have introduced such a camera, and kept the size of the camera small, limiting the zoom, even making it a fixed focal length camera at 50 mm.

I'll add to what you say. Not just the casual photographer, there is very much a segment in the enthusiast market as well that has no interest in changing lenses. Cutting the mount saves expense; allows for a shorter distance between the lens and the sensor, thereby improving IQ; and ultimately allows for a more compact camera. What it does not allow is the prospect for the manufacturer to sell multiple lenses, though.

In any case, if the thought of carrying and changing lenses would occur to photographers, won't they opt for a bigger sensor anyway?

Photo-Wiz said:

Then again, Nikon's research may show that I haven't a clue what I'm talking about. We'll see.

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Nikon's researchers seem to be interested in selling more lenses. I totally side with your views here. Personally, I'd rather wait for Fuji or Olympus to make a fixed-lens camera using a 1" CCD sensor.

On a sarcastic note, I'm pondering camera phones with interchangeable lenses. With a nice brass mount. Since that seems to be the 'in' thing this season.

cheers,
AP

I must admit I'm struggling with these two new cameras.

As a Nikon owner I was pondering whether to replace my GF1. The concept is a great idea but when you look at Compacts like the S95 and LX5 the pricing is where it all falls down.

I'm guessing that with the slightly larger sensor you'll beat the compacts in IQ, but when you consider also what you can get for the money? Sony, Samsung, Oly, Panasonic and the host of entry DSLRs then I can't see this taking off. Way too much money.

The Market is ruthless and pricing needs to be lower. Interesting that Pentax has followed a similar route. Canon is due to make an entry into this market and Iwill wait to see what they offer. I may have missed something here, but I'm starting to see that maybe that the M4/3 is the sweet spot in the format wars. (Provided that they can start refreshing their sensors !)

Photo-Wiz said:

So it is aimed at casual compact user looking for better quality picture. But I don't see this group of users being particularly interested in "interchangeable" lenses.

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Almost every p/s user who told me that he/she wanted to upgrade to a dSLR said they wanted to upgrade to get better, faster AF.
The AF one of the main selling points of the Nikon 1 system according to Nikon.

The bigger sensor compared to the compact p/s will probably produce good enough images for most users.

Photo-Wiz said:

If you are not interested in A/S/P selection, shutter speed/F stop, you're probably not too excited at the thought of changing lenses either.

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I know enough dSLR users who use their camera only in AUTO mode and they change lenses. I see nor reason why Nikon 1 users would be different.

Photo-Wiz said:

The high quality compacts already do pretty well in the picture quality area.

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One of the, if not the, biggest complains I hear form p/s users is shutter lag and AF speed. OK, they don't call it shutter lag or AF speed, they complain that they constantly miss the moment they wanted to photograph.

The high capture rate and the AF speed of the Nikon 1 system is exactly the solution to their problem.

Photo-Wiz said:

The system may be successful with an additional camera body aimed at the amateur enthusiast.

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Another Nikon 1 camera aimed at enthusiasts with more manual controls would (only) add more to the targeted audience.

I think we should wait until the first real hand on reviews are available to see how the two Nikon 1 cameras are operated. I read some reviews that hint that M, S, P, A isn't that complicated to control - but I don't trust reviews based on a few minutes of use.

Photo-Wiz said:

But clearly more manual controls and menu selections must be on offer.

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I think that Nikon will offer such a camera with direct controls of aperture, shutter speed and ISO. The V1 and J1 are only the first two cameras of a whole new Nikon system. And I guess that Nikon won't wait 2-4 years to introduce new Nikon 1 cameras. They will have to introduce new Nikon 1 cameras every year, just like they do with the CoolPix cameras.

Photo-Wiz said:

I think only the enthusiast and pro audience will create a demand for the additional lenses which Nikon needs for the system to be successful.

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I think the consumer market the two cameras are aimed at can create demand for additional lenses.

Getting a macro lens, a portrait lens or a longer zoom is interesting even for people who just want to take pictures (and don't care about A, M, S, P).

Having the option to buy different lenses is a big bonus for the cameras. Just like with dSLRs many people choose the system that offers them the most options - even if they never buy any of the more exotic choices.

And if people have the options they think about getting this or that - and will buy it.

100% agree with you, butterfly0fdoom.

I totally agree. When word of mouth spread that it's a no brainer to shoot with a J1 and get sharp images (because of the AF speed AND for most pictures we take, not always for photo contests - mind you), most p&s consumers would more than happy NOT to deal with the PASM controls. As it's always the case, the future iterations of the "1" system will improve on user interfaces for the "more sophisticated" users.

Remember when D40 first came out, Kinon put it in the hands of regular folks and ask them to shoot? Nikon should do the same for J1. D40 is still considered a cult classic for its simplicity and IQ. To be honest, I'd be curious to see an IQ comparison side by side between D40 and J1. Seeing is believing.
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HLL7575

harry said:

I totally agree. When word of mouth spread that it's a no brainer to shoot with a J1 and get sharp images (because of the AF speed AND for most pictures we take, not always for photo contests - mind you), most p&s consumers would more than happy NOT to deal with the PASM controls. As it's always the case, the future iterations of the "1" system will improve on user interfaces for the "more sophisticated" users.

Remember when D40 first came out, Kinon put it in the hands of regular folks and ask them to shoot? Nikon should do the same for J1. D40 is still considered a cult classic for its simplicity and IQ. To be honest, I'd be curious to see an IQ comparison side by side between D40 and J1. Seeing is believing.
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HLL7575

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The question is whether the IQ will be really that much better than with a compact camera or even a phone camera. If the competition for the 1 series is cheaper, lighter and smaller with similar IQ then there is simply no reason to purchase one.

I think they have pitched this too close to the compact cameras, you get the disadvantages of a system camera (large lenses which have to be changed) while gaining very few of the advantages of a large sensor camera.

Consumers who don't care about IQ or PASM will get a compact and be happy. Consumers who do care about IQ and PASM will look for a larger sensor.

Time will tell, it could be that I'm wrong and there's a big market for it. If I had to bet I'd say not though.

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The fact that a-mount lenses are still worth any money at all is thanks to the success of SLT.

not amateur enthusiast. it's aimed at regular folks, especially, i think, regular women. face it it's not for most people on this forum, but that means nothing in and of itself.

With the blinding fast auto-focus and its “Smart Photo Selector” mode, the Nikon1 system looks as if has been designed from the ground up specifically for soccer moms.

It may also appeal to some amateurs photographers that want a fast and flexible system camera without having to learn about exposure modes, ISO, DOF, and other technical aspects of photography.

More here: http://dpanswers.com/roztr/content_show.php?id=188
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– gisle [ See profile/plan for equipment list ]

I agree that the fast autofocus is what most of the P&S shooters that I know would like. I take pictures of my 9 month old granddaughter and I can get that special look which her parents P&S always seems to miss.

But the price will be the issue for the people I know.

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Tim
http://tf442.smugmug.com/

Small cameras are all about being inconspicuous. There are a lot of places where you can't take a "professional" camera. There are a lot of places where police will hassle you for taking photographs at all anymore. Henri Cartier-Bresson's whole Leica-covered-in-black-tape thing was a response to needing an inconspicuous camera.

So yeah, it would be useful and inconspicuous...if the lenses weren't all the size of a beer can. And yeah, they tossed in that lone 10mm f/2.8 pancake as if to say, "OK, we fully understand that you can get pancakes like the Panasonic 20mm f/1.7 or the Samsung 30mm f/2, but...uh...you should buy this instead! It has a Nikon logo on it!"