Who need Nikon F1 When there is NEX and Micro 4/3

It's small enough, and large enough to handle well (not that handling will matter much to the target buyer). Compare the Panny with its accessory EVF wart, and it has a much taller and bulkier total package.

--
BJ Nicholls
SLC, UT
 
"Why does one care about how big the pixels are? A larger pixel has more light-gathering area, which means the light signal is stronger over a given interval of time.

This usually results in an improved signal to noise ratio (SNR), which createsa smoother and more detailed image. Furthermore, the dynamic range of the images (range of light to dark which the camera can capture without becoming either black or clipping highlights) also increases with larger pixels. This is because each pixel well can contain more photons before it fills up and becomes completely white."

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-pixel.htm
 
A larger sensor, or more equally sized pixels means more dynamic range and better light performance.
That's assuming the same sensor technology.
Ofcourse, but was a reaction on his general response about pixelsize.

And since all is not always equal I added the comment about QE, if for example it reaches levels of the D3S.
 
Whew! The Nikon isn't small at all:

The body doesn't need to be super small—too small and it might become uncomfortable to use, for a camera that may never fit in a shirt pocket anyway.

The more important question is how small are the lenses going to be compared to m4/3.
 
Better glass quality and selection than NEX, better sensor than 12MP m43 (and pretty close to the 16MP).
Sounds like you did some thorough testing to conclude the above.
Presumably TrojMacReady you do not believe Samsung NX owners are entitled to an opinion or point of view either.
That's an assumption not supported by what I wrote. But Sensibill didn't word his claims as an opinion. Besides the fact that measurable differences shouldn't be confused with opinions to begin with.
 
I've owned three m43 cameras as well as a D100, D90, D3100 and D5000. You could say I've done some testing... And of course there's the testing available from IR, DPR, etc.
I know, that's why I replied the way I replied. Their data doesn't support your assertion about the sensors for example.

 
"Why does one care about how big the pixels are? A larger pixel has more light-gathering area, which means the light signal is stronger over a given interval of time.

This usually results in an improved signal to noise ratio (SNR), which createsa smoother and more detailed image. Furthermore, the dynamic range of the images (range of light to dark which the camera can capture without becoming either black or clipping highlights) also increases with larger pixels. This is because each pixel well can contain more photons before it fills up and becomes completely white."

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-pixel.htm
There is a lot of misinformation about pixel size floating around, and you just copypasted some of it.

The size of the pixels doesn't tell you anything in isolation of the size of the sensor and the number of the pixels. Smaller pixels are "worse," but at the same time more pixels are better. For a fixed sensor size, the question is whether the improvement from the increased pixel count makes up for the extra noise from the smaller pixel size. And historically, the trend is that it has.
 
You make it sound like Nikon is the Rush Limbaugh of digital photography. I don't recall any "campaign" by Nikon to dismiss smaller sensors. Perhaps you confuse forum posts by large sensor fans with some kind of talking point campaign from Nikon. Nikon has been no more dismissive of smaller sensors than any other DSLR maker, all of whom are obligated to advance the best aspects of the cameras they're marketing. And I shouldn't need to mention that Nikon sells and has promoted the performance of many camera models with even smaller sensors than these.

--
BJ Nicholls
SLC, UT
 
Yes, great camera and they could teach Sony a thing or two about lenses but would anyone really be impressed if you showed them your 'Samsung' camera regardless of how good it is. Its like lining up a Nissan GTR next to a Ferrari - similar performance but ...you know what I mean.

Nikon should have just bought Samsung's camera division and added some pretty colours (for that target market), a couple of new (coloured) lenses and a rebadge and it would seel like hotcakes.

Cheers
 
Wellington 100 said:
Believe it or not the Nikon has a lower pixel density than the newest Sony Nex camera so the Nikon should have as good if not better dynamic range and low light capability .
I don't believe it!

Simple mathematics says that the area of an APS-C sensor vs Nikon 1 sensor is (2.7/1.5) (2.7/1.5) = 3.24 bigger. Now, mp count ratio 24/10 = 2.4 so the Sony pixel size is 3.24/2.4 = 1.35 bigger than the Nikon.

Anyway, all you need to do is look at those sample images and the noise or rather, NR artifacts in dark areas betrays the smaller pixel size.

Cheers
 
I think you should to go back and re-read my 'assertion'. I never said the NX100 was better or even equal at high ISO to the G3 or GH2, just that it was close - and while that particular part of that particular sample may seem significant, the differences at 1600 are much less obvious, and I'd even go so far as to say that a bit more chroma noise does not always equate to more loss of detail.

It also bears noting that higher ISO is not the end-all gauge of IQ. While the 16MP m43 sensor turns out cleaner higher ISO and no doubt has better DR at those settings, I prefer the NX output up to ISO-400, both JPEG and RAW. Better transitions, highlights, color, DR, SnR. Chroma noise on the NX is very regular and fine, quite easy to clean up in PP. My ISO-3200 sample + close crop below demonstrates what you can do with five minutes of NR tweaking in LR. Of course, high ISO JPEG on NX is not good.

Even with the arguable bits removed, the NX has better native glass than NEX and better sensor performance than 12MP m43. That alone should earn it at least a modicum of acknowledgment when the topic of mirrorless cameras is brought up.







 
"Why does one care about how big the pixels are? A larger pixel has more light-gathering area, which means the light signal is stronger over a given interval of time.

This usually results in an improved signal to noise ratio (SNR), which createsa smoother and more detailed image. Furthermore, the dynamic range of the images (range of light to dark which the camera can capture without becoming either black or clipping highlights) also increases with larger pixels. This is because each pixel well can contain more photons before it fills up and becomes completely white."

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-pixel.htm
There is a lot of misinformation about pixel size floating around, and you just copypasted some of it.

The size of the pixels doesn't tell you anything in isolation of the size of the sensor and the number of the pixels. Smaller pixels are "worse," but at the same time more pixels are better. For a fixed sensor size, the question is whether the improvement from the increased pixel count makes up for the extra noise from the smaller pixel size. And historically, the trend is that it has.
I wasn't citing that example in 'isolation of sensor size' and without contrary data, I don't see any rebuttal of the article regarding larger pixels. Notice I didn't mention read noise per unit of measurement independent of sensor size.

I've yet to see any article or thesis citing that pixel size is irrelevant to the variables mentioned here. Density of the sensor as the only significant factor is what I was refuting.
 
--
Now THIS is a signature.
 
Nikon 1 and Pentax Q to be the first victims of the mirrorless war.

Too small sensor for the Nikon 1 in combination with big lenses is going to make it just about as bulky package as comparative offerings from m43, NEX and Samsung NX though with a small sensor as disadvantage.

Trying to keep it small and still offer very competitive image quality - That's is what I think that mirrorless was and still are about when Olympus presented their carrot-coloured mockup. I guess Nikon and Pentax still have to figure that out.

What they are going to offer are not very small. Samsung NX200 with a 20 or 30mm f2.8 pancake are not going to be too large to compete very successfully with Nikon J1 and a pancake. Despite a jpeg engine which certainly could be better. Nikon may have the fast phase detection AF but what about noise levels at higher iso and dynamic range? ;)

As earlier said, it is the small size with the image quality of APS-C Dslrs that many are after when they look towards the mirrorless offerrings. Sony NEX may have the image quality but also the huge prime lenses called pancakes. Guess that they've slightly missunderstood what mirrorless is about.

What about Pentax Q? Smaller sensor than even the Nikon 1 and not even Phase detection. I guess them might find it hard to compete unless they somehow finds their own niche that might make some sort of sense.

Samsung NX. I think that they've got many things right so far except for the noisy sensors and jpeg engine which could be better. Certainly m43 or larger sensor size is the way to go if one are after image quality. The NX200 with a 20 or 30mm pancake is not too bulky and unlike Sony NEX the prime lenses are not too big but still offer some quality. The bokeh which sometimes turns out distracting are something Samsung need to care about though and also try to get the NR jpeg engine right. An other con is the fact that lenses for Leica M which often are compact can't be used at infinity with the NX mount.

m43. Are doing fine atm. Compared to aps c m43 stands at a disadvantage for DR and high iso. Still, it can be rather compact with a pancake lens and with good image quality.

Both Nikon and Pentax have many loyal fanboys which might go for their mirrorless offerings at almost any cost. Then what about newcomers to photography which haven't become a fan yet or like myself, independently look to their needs, what they want and chooses after these criterias? or real photographers? The later are likely to have a look at either Sony NEX, m43 and Samsung NX. The former might have a look at both and eventually choose what a salesperson think are the best from what the consumer might want to achieve with the gear.

Ricoh GXR. The A12 50mm macro is not pocketable at all but at least Ricoh have taken notice and the A12 28mm is not that big. Buying same sensor twice to have the both these two modules are not making much sense to me. Just very unnecessarily stupid. Ricoh should instead have created their own mount module with very short flange for GXR and released pancake-lenses for that one. The M-mount module offer no AF and are niched for manual focus optic.

I've not decided what I'm are going to go with for myself. But one thing is for sure, for myself it won't be anything smaller than APS-C. I'm After image quality, not a practical joke like Nikon 1 or Pentax Q.
 
Well the 10/2.8 Nikon 1 lens is about 20grams heavier than the Panasonic 14/2.5

The upcoming Nikon 1 10-30 is also much bigger than the Panasonic X equivelant.. It is also similar size to the Olympus 14-42mm II which is 112g vs the Nikon 10-30mm at 115g..

Nikon 1 10-100mm has a 72mm thread and weighs in at 515g, The Olympus u4/3 14-150mm has a 58mm thread and weighs 290g

So even in the lens department Nikon is bigger and/or heavier than the larger sensor u4/3 options (at worst they are equal, so what was the point of less DOF control with a smaller sensor???)...

I was intent on seeing something better than u4/3 in useful ways (giving me a choice to make) but I don't think that is the case so far...

------------

Joel - Olympus E-P3, 9-18, 14-42 R II, 50/2, 150/2, Panasonic 14/2.5, 25/1.4 Voigtlander 75/2.5

My Gallery: http://www.eisner.id.au
 
Only Sloth and beginners need intelligent features capable intelligent people only need quality and capability.
 
.. as we knew it.

With all the superimpressive, unprecedented data transfer speeds, superintelligence that can select several photos out of zillion from a single shutter release, 60 frame per sec recording, whatever else ... well, this was not designed to be a photography camera.

N1 is a superduper videography camera marketed to the bedazzled as 'the latest photography gadget'.

I mean photography as in 'a single frame', or 'a mind's picture' term, taken by someone's skill in anticipation of a right, decisive moment.

Decisive moment, where art thou? Anticipation, becoming one with the scene ... There isn't such a thing anymore with N1. N1 takes your brain out of equation and puts its mighty data crunching processor and fastest possible AF in charge.

It virtually dissolves not only traditional shooting modes and redefines approach to frame taking (which now becomes just a bookmark inside a stream of video), but dissolves terms, and expectations.

With cameras like these, who needs photographers, or even photography anymore? We can almost see N1 in an "Odyssey 2001" style story, where quite like the HAL 9000 computer it refuses to cooperate with humans thinking it is capable of making better decisions and better impressions of the world than with their help.
 
So even in the lens department Nikon is bigger and/or heavier than the larger sensor u4/3 options (at worst they are equal, so what was the point of less DOF control with a smaller sensor???)...
This might change over the next few years. It might be too little too late, or it might be enough early enough. The competitors could mess it up, too, and it's not all about the technology. Panasonic is doing really great on the size and lens quality departments, less so in sensor technology, and not very well at all in international marketing and distribution.

For example, I preordered my GH2 when it was announced in Sep. 2010; Amazon cancelled my preorder against my will, and I didn't get the camera until January. But even then, it was a couple of months until you could even order a GH2 battery in the USA.

Panasonic could well lose to Nikon in the long term over stuff like this—although to be fair, Nikon do have their share of availability issues too.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top