Nikon mirror-less

I look forward for a compact Leica-like system camera, maybe an EVIL camera. But it should be much much cheaper than a Leica M9 and have a sensor no smaller than APS-C size. A full frame would be better for DOF control, but could make it too big, as well as the lenses.

By the way, once having an EVF or a high-res back screen I see no good reason to put the VR engines inside each lens, making them bigger, heavier and costlier.

So far, I'm disappointed by the small sensor of Nikon's new mirror-less system. It may sell a great deal but, still, we have to keep dreaming about Leica M's conveniences at reasonable, high quality gear prices, but not above that.

I never liked the phrase "full-frame" to describe 135-format-sized sensors since the 8x10 format is the true full-frame format and 35mm (135 format) is a severely cropped subset of that.

As time went by sensors/film formats became small. I still remember some very senior photographers hating the 35mm format as very low resolution "small format" when it was introduced, but time has changed and to us that same 35mm format has become "big"

Are we sacrificing quality for compactness ?
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D.Mukherjee

I think Nikon consumer grade has been a huge waste of energy since film days and they need to get back to innovation rather than bean counters who replicate a DSLR past that veers away on a very different dead end track. DSLR FX may even end up a rare commodity by the time mirrorless really comes to fruition.

I can't agree that they should continue to build around APS because that's simply grabbing the bull by its tail.

I have a hunch mirrorless technology with EVF, optical or both combined (Fuji,right?) will eventually blow non FX DSLRs out of the arena. Look at Micro Four Thirds. Although I think "micro" is deceiving regarding sensor size, it's a fourthirds sensor that packs a very serious challenge to APS and MFT is well ahead in compact innovation.

I was looking at Canon's G-12 and Nikon's P7100 just to ponder the designs. How ridiculous that both have optical viewfinders that are no better than older P&S with finders. Then I look at the similar sized Olympus PEN all made to use with an EVF that is worlds ahead and a much larger sensor.

When Nikon has a compact mirrorless, like MFT, it will have to create new lenses too so why don't they get into a proven success and design on MFT technology that will be a serious challenge to them otherwise.

With an adapter ring I would look forward to mounting my manual F lenses on a compact Nikon that rediscovers how valuable they can be with a very high grade EVF and captures an image as good as any DX today.
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BruceWB

...and I say that not having the faintest idea about MFT production terms : (
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BruceWB

OK.

But with smaller sensors you need larger apertures in order to have reasonable DOF control, otherwise everything becomes in focus and you loose important creative tools.

Faster lenses are bigger and at some point they become so large that they overcome the advantages of a compact, small sensor body. Just look at some Sony models!

Technology advances will keep solving the noise and sensibility troubles of small sensors but technology cannot change the laws of optics.

This is a simple guess, not a scientific approach, but to me it looks like the best compromise will be in between MFT and FF 35 mm, with prime lenses between f/1.4 and f/2.8.

This is why I'm not happy with what I heard about the Nikon mirror-less system. If I have to give-up shallow DOF and bokeh, I prefer to go for a Canon S95 or S100 with are really portable.
Am I exaggerating?

CacoCardoso said:

OK.

But with smaller sensors you need larger apertures in order to have reasonable DOF control, otherwise everything becomes in focus and you loose important creative tools.

Faster lenses are bigger and at some point they become so large that they overcome the advantages of a compact, small sensor body. Just look at some Sony models!

Click to expand...

Yeah, like that Panasonic 20mm/1.7 pancake lens. Or the enormous Olympus 45mm/1.8. Or the excellent Samsung 30mm/2.0 pancake for an APS-C-sized sensor. Or all the compacts with 1/1.7" sensors that have small and fast lenses.

Sony's lenses are big and slow because they don't care and people buy them anyway.

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Regards
Thorsten

CacoCardoso said:

So far, I'm disappointed by the small sensor of Nikon's new mirror-less system.

Click to expand...

I was not aware that this camera has been formally announced or made available for sale. I am curious how you can be disappointed by something that you have not been able to examine and use. Or do you just base your post on rumor and speculation?
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My Smugmug photos http://www.brianshannonphotography.com/
My photo blog http://brianshannonphotography.blogspot.com/
My 500px photos http://500px.com/brianshannonphotography/

Dear ThorKre

Sorry if my text looked offensive but I've no good command of the English language.
I didn't understand your reply.
Sincerely.

Yes, I based my comment on unoficcial info available in the Web. I should have said that in my note.
By the way, I'm a very satisfied user of Nikon SLR and DSLR cameras and lenses.

Also, I would love if Nikon would fill a product gap in the market. I hope they may soon come with something different from what I got from current rumors.
IMHO, it will not happen.

I totally agree.
MFT can be a reasonable minimum size, considering DOF control.

Yet, nobody offers a minimum of 3 (i.e: 25, 50, 100 mm equiv) very fast, compact primes to compose a practical, high image quality, easy to carry system.
Cheers.

CacoCardoso said:

Dear ThorKre

Sorry if my text looked offensive but I've no good command of the English language.
I didn't understand your reply.
Sincerely.

Click to expand...

Don't play stupid because you don't like your argument being countered. There are a lot of very small, sharp, fast lenses for every sensor size up to APS-C.

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Regards
Thorsten

I agree.
Maybe worst than that is naming a product by what it hasn't got: "mirror-less."

Good point.

Sometime ago I read an article regarding sensor size and capacity to do selective depth of focus. It was about using the FF Canon 5D in the video industry, I guess.

Selective DOF is difficult to make with short focus lenses but short lenses are a necessity in case of very small sensors. I think that the FF sensor is one of the reasons for the success of the 5D in video production.

So I think technology can and is producing higher and higher quality small sensors, but a large image area is needed in order to provide ample selective DOF.

Meanwhile, lots of amateur photographers are still looking for more megapixels and wider-range zoom lenses, and that's what manufacturers go after. I can't blame any of them.
My dream product could become a marketing disaster, maybe!

Why I feel Nikon might have their head in the sand concerning mirrorless and MFT:

"The MFT system design flange focal length distance allows for, through use of an adapter, the possibility to mount virtually any manufacturer's existing and legacy still camera interchangeable lens (as well as some video and cine lenses) to an MFT body, albeit using manual focus and manual aperture control. For example, many theoretically obsolete 35mm film camera lenses, as well as existing current lenses for APS-C and full frame DSLR's are now usable on MFT cameras. As an example, an older (i.e., used, obsolete and low priced), but still high quality, 50mm f/1.8 "standard" lens from a 35mm film camera can be used on a MFT camera body. With MFT sensors having a crop factor of 2.0, the old 50mm f/1.8 "standard" lens becomes a high-speed (although manual) 100mm f/1.8 telephoto portrait lens. So the MFT system allows the re-use of expensive lenses that may have outlived their 35mm film format camera, and can be used on a modern digital camera body capable of both still and HD video recording. Similarly, the MFT system design allows current DSLR lenses to be used as well, although only with manual focus and aperture control."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC-GH1

And think about it. No stopping down problems with an EVF preview. Manual focusing that will be better than the original film or digital camera the lens was designed for, a very high resolution WYSIWYG preview that would have been a dream not too long ago and sensor IS to compensate for unavailable lens stabilizers.

Concerned about depth of field abilities? 10% is in the tools we use. 90% is in the knowledge of how to take the picture. I don't buy any significant differences between APS and MFT bokeh! They're nothing like the differences gained on medium format or even a 35mm full frame. If we weren't so loaded with zooms it would be more obvious.

I met a photographer at a photo trade show in NYC who used a Panasonic GH1. With FT and MFT adapters galore on the market already, he had some incredible collection of legacy lenses he'd been using on it, as many as a hundred if memory still serves : (

The vintage lens he had on the camera at the show was somewhere around an f2. It was that old chrome lens on a digital black plastic body that had got my attention! Memory does run out trying to recall which one it was but he also had a portfolio of images with him. I'm a pro artist and know something about images that make it to the show. Rest assured, the lenses played a roll in his beautiful results.

I'm still using Nikon F lenses with hopes of getting a D700 or even D3s but here's my point to Nikon, I'm currently using them on Fourthirds cameras! My 28mm f2.8 becomes a 56mm f2.8. My 40mm f2 Ultron becomes an 80mm f2... and on, and on.

If Nikon turns their nose up at such an incredible opportunity for lens adaption by customizing their mirrorless as an exclusive mount over a sensor size that limits lens use, they'll be at the mercy of a market trained on birthday cakes and cats... and I'll probably give up on any Nikon FX.

I don't mean to be too skeptical but at one time, Nikon was renown for adaptability in its system. This is one of the reasons I passed up on Canon years ago. I feel they'll create a mirrorless jewel in the end but when? An interchangeable range between MFT and FX would seem far more useful.
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BruceWB

CacoCardoso said:

So far, I'm disappointed by the small sensor of Nikon's new mirror-less system.

Click to expand...

One possible reason for Nikon to use a 2.7 crop factor sensor (besides size and weight) is to provide what m43 does not have - an electronic shutter. If they do, and if the rest of the camera and the lenses are of good quality, they would have an instant hit on their hands.

To me an electronic shutter would be reason enough to buy it (with all other things being equal to m43).

An electronic shutter would be a big plus for me too. In general I like the idea of a smaller camera and am hoping the upcoming Nikon satisfy my requirements for a smaller camera. The silence, flash sync at all shutter speeds, and lack of vibration an electronic shutter could provide would be worth an extra $150 to me. An electronic shutter should be much cheaper than a physical one but as long as it is a unique feature I would expect to pay more for it. Eliminating the physical shutter would also make it possible to reduce the thickness of the camera.

But I would even be happy with a hybrid shutter where a physical shutter could be used for 1/250 - 1/4000 and an electronic shutter could be used at slower speeds. It would not provide flash sync at high speeds and eliminate the added cost and bulk from the physical shutter but would still provide silence and lack of vibration when I need it most.

CacoCardoso said:

Faster lenses are bigger and at some point they become so large that they overcome the advantages of a compact, small sensor body. Just look at some Sony models!

Click to expand...

I have a f2.0 30mm pancake lens on my Samsung NX100 and from the body of the camera to the front of the lens is 2.5 cms so I am a bit perplexed about your statement that faster lenses are large. Attached is a photo showing it happily fits in my coat pocket which is not bad for a 45mm equiv f2 lens on an aps-c camera.

I must say I am interested in the idea of a 2.7x factor camera as it seems to me to be an interesting compromise between portability and image quality and fills an obvious gap. The only worrying thing is the rumours talk about 10mp which seems a bit conservative but then that may not be a problem if they can provide exceptional low light performance. I look forward greatly to the release of the Nikon mirrorless camera or at least confirmation of the specs.

CacoCardoso said:

I look forward for a compact Leica-like system camera, maybe an EVIL camera. But it should be much much cheaper than a Leica M9 and have a sensor no smaller than APS-C size. A full frame would be better for DOF control, but could make it too big, as well as the lenses.

Click to expand...

I disagree. Without the mirror, the shorter lens/sensor distance allows much smaller lenses than SLR.

Back in film days, the lenses of Leica, Nikon, Canon rangefinders were very small.

Heck, Canon even had a .95 and it was an easily handiable size. (albeit not known for it's sharpness)

So I also would like to see a FF mirrorless.

But ALSO with a sensor design like the Sony design in the EX-F1 to allow pre-exposure buffering and NO BLACKOUT (and no shutter lag) during exposures.

Until we achieve NO BLACKOUT I will still miss the old rangefinders, (with leaf shutters for higher flash sync speed).

CacoCardoso said:

So far, I'm disappointed by the small sensor of Nikon's new mirror-less system. It may sell a great deal but, still, we have to keep dreaming about Leica M's conveniences at reasonable, high quality gear prices, but not above that.

Click to expand...

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Thanks for reading .... JoePhoto

( Do You Ever STOP to THINK --- and FORGET to START Again ??? )

The f2.0 pancake lens is very compact. My point is that when we go to f2.0 at 85 or 100 mm equivalent, where large apertures are needed to provide selective focus or DOF control, the lens would become bigger, about 2 or 2.5x the diameter of your pancake lens.
With a VR engine inside it may get even bigger and a little heavier.

The 10 Mp sensor will not be a problem in my case. I'm confident it will provide high sensibility and low noise.

I'm very interested on Nikon's announcement but I confess that the current rumors aren't as exciting as I expected.