Olympus Ideas executed by Sony and now possibly Nikon?

The mirrorless MFT Prosumer camera that most of us "The beloved Olympus faithful" have expected to see in the near future has spawned a few interesting bodies from Sony with a special nod going to the A77 with a 24 mp sensor and OLED viewfinder. With the unconfirmed rumor that Nikon will release a mirrorless body by years end, I am curious to see the position that Olympus or even Panasonic takes with a mirrorless DSLR (like) camera. I believe that the Sony is somewhere around $1400 and with the Nikon rumored to be around $1K, can Olympus take their "OWN" idea and outperform the competition at a price point that is justifiable with other players in the market? If Nikon does take the plunge (and makes money) - something that I am not sure Sony is doing, I am fairly certain that Canon will also come to the table with a comparable system. If Oly can find a way to make the FT glass work (full function) with a MFT Prosumer or greater body, the higher price (pretty much an OLY given) may not be an issue for those like myself that have purchased a large collection of FT Lenses. I am impressed with the OLY pens performance as a "street" camera (not including the lenses at this point) but must admit that they work much better for my wife's photography requirements as she captures the images surrounding our children/family events and her teaching endeavors.

I hope that there is some sign of development for a pro type body in the near future so I can make the business decision about about additional glass purchases for my studio. Until then we will work with what we have and continue to create and capture beautiful photos.

Happy Shooting
--
Olympus Color...why did "YOU" buy into this system?

Sony released an adapter that transforms NEX into a DSLR. Some laugh, but with an eventual bottom grip this is genius. you have a small light NEX that transform into a DSLR for your Pro lenses which you paid big money for.

Nikon will soon release their mirrorles system. The will release an adapter along with the system, for all the AF-S and AF-I lenses. Gues what, it will have the PDAF AF system built in.

It' very clear that Olympus could have an adapter, with side grip, bottom grip and mirror/pdaf included, that could transform any PEN into a DSLR when needed. But Olympus couldn't be bothered.

Now it is too late. Their crediblity is lower than ever and many 4/3 users switched.

Panasonic is leading m4/3, with NEX system becoming very strong, they have the best camera but they need lenses.

Olympus remains...............Olympus

http://www.43rumors.com/patent-new-olympus-four-thirds-to-m43-adapter/

This might be a solution.

Consider this: the people wanting a DSLR like mirrorless camera are mostly enthusiast level dslr users. The rest of the world buying PENs and other mirrorless don't seem to have the angst about lack of EVF that is found on this forum.

Sales figures in many areas back this up.

There is a vast market of buyers who have never used an eye level finder. They are taking pictures that range in quality just as much as those taken with DSLRs, with genres such as sports/action or wildlife being the areas where current mirrorless really do trail behind dslrs.

My point is that why should Olympus try to develop a dslr like PEN when the current PENs are selling well? So that a shrinking percentage of the market can be happy? Right now I don't see the economics supporting that decision.
--

Some people operate cameras. Others use them to create images. There is a difference.

http://ikkens.zenfolio.com/

http://sarob-w.deviantart.com/

Understand the lack of rational for Olympus, however, my studio photographers and field shooters currently operate with 2 E-3, 1- E-5, 4- E-1's, 2 -620's and a still living and kicking E-300, and are now looking at the light at the end of the tunnel. Again this may not be the best move for Olympus to continue down the 4/3rds path but it surely will effect my business over the next couple of years. The 300 and the 3 E-1's have spent a little time in intensive care (olympus service) and I am now getting a few glitches happening to one of the E-3's and the only body I can currently purchase is the $1500+ 5 to continue using with the 12 Zuiko lens and numerous Sigma and Panasonic glass.

Would love to see a future with Oly, but it is bleak!
--
Olympus Color...why did "YOU" buy into this system?

CharlesB58 said:

Consider this: the people wanting a DSLR like mirrorless camera are mostly enthusiast level dslr users. The rest of the world buying PENs and other mirrorless don't seem to have the angst about lack of EVF that is found on this forum.

Sales figures in many areas back this up.

Click to expand...

What? Revenue figures like this for interchangeables comparing 09-10/10-11:

Japan -5.50%
North America -36.20%
Europe -29.90%
Asia / Oceania -24.40%
Other -4.30%

I would suggest that Olympus' management are the ones who need to consider.

CharlesB58 said:

My point is that why should Olympus try to develop a dslr like PEN when the current PENs are selling well? So that a shrinking percentage of the market can be happy? Right now I don't see the economics supporting that decision.

Click to expand...

The reason " why " is so clear it's transparent. A marketing mix as they call it - or simply products that appeal to different customer preferences, as opposed to what Olympus' marketing thinks we want. The camera can have an integral VF without being SLR style. Take the NEX-7; incidentally one of the most pre-ordered cameras of any launch ever - there's a possible clue, that even the retards at Olympus marketing may grasp.

dab1 said:

CharlesB58 said:

Consider this: the people wanting a DSLR like mirrorless camera are mostly enthusiast level dslr users. The rest of the world buying PENs and other mirrorless don't seem to have the angst about lack of EVF that is found on this forum.

Sales figures in many areas back this up.

Click to expand...

What? Revenue figures like this for interchangeables comparing 09-10/10-11:

Japan -5.50%
North America -36.20%
Europe -29.90%
Asia / Oceania -24.40%
Other -4.30%

I would suggest that Olympus' management are the ones who need to consider.

dab1 said:

My point is that why should Olympus try to develop a dslr like PEN when the current PENs are selling well? So that a shrinking percentage of the market can be happy? Right now I don't see the economics supporting that decision.

Click to expand...

The reason " why " is so clear it's transparent. A marketing mix as they call it - or simply products that appeal to different customer preferences, as opposed to what Olympus' marketing thinks we want. The camera can have an integral VF without being SLR style. Take the NEX-7; incidentally one of the most pre-ordered cameras of any launch ever - there's a possible clue, that even the retards at Olympus marketing may grasp.

Click to expand...

Looking at their financials here http://www.olympus-global.com/en/corc/ir/brief/ for the first 3 months of their fiscal year gives you a different perspective. Compared to the previous year, the imaging division sales are down slightly but the profit is up into the black. Revenues are great, but profit is king. If their revenues double but their losses double, their problems more than double. If their revenues go down but they go from running in the red to operating in the black that's not as much of a problem.

Large revenues give you more prestege but profits keep you in business.

I love my E-Pls and wish I could justify an E-P3 at this point! The concept is fine and seems to sell well in Asia, reasonably well in Europe and not so well in America (where BIG means GOOD). I've taken perhaps three of the best photos I've ever taken in the last year for no other reason than the Pen was simply with me when the DSLR would have been impractical.

Will there be a Pro Pen? Perhaps not. A digital OM seems more likely to me.

--
Regards
J

Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/jasonhindleuk
Blog: http://jasonhindle.wordpress.com



Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jason_hindle

Gear in profile

dab1 said:

• there's a possible clue, that even the retards at Olympus marketing may grasp.

Click to expand...

FIrst, you cite overall figures without the breakdown of how mirrorless is steadily increasing as part of the interchangeable lens market. No big deal.

So marketing cameras toward specific groups may mean other groups don't get what they want (which I think is your implication). DUH! Camera companies are out to make a profit, to do so they play the game of coming out with products that they hope will sell.

But then you resort to this last line, which pretty much blows your credibility completely IMO. Resorting to terms such as "retards" is childish as well as offensive.

--

Some people operate cameras. Others use them to create images. There is a difference.

http://ikkens.zenfolio.com/

http://sarob-w.deviantart.com/

CharlesB58 said:

FIrst, you cite overall figures without the breakdown of how mirrorless is steadily increasing as part of the interchangeable lens market. No big deal.

Click to expand...

Yes, mirrorless is increasing as part of the interchangeable lens market. And over the last few years Olympus have concentrated on Mirrorless cameras.

That actually makes it an even bigger deal when their sales of interchangeables worldwide are diving at a much greater rate than competitors in the same recession.

It means they have lost more revenue in SLR equipment sales than they've gained in the sale of Pen equipment, even taking the recession into account.

When people on this forum ask about an E620 replacement they get slammed down that its because of finance. The fact of the matter is that SLRs still continue to sell well - check the latest Amazon figures for interchangeables updated hourly: The top 10 are still SLRs, the NEX are in the teens. BTW you'll find the EP-3 at number 88 in the sales charts - much lower than Olympus 5** or 6** series SLRs sold at.

I like the Pens and think they are right to pursue, but they pulled out of SLRs too quickly and have lost significant revenue through not having sufficient product mix.

CharlesB58 said:

So marketing cameras toward specific groups may mean other groups don't get what they want (which I think is your implication). DUH! Camera companies are out to make a profit, to do so they play the game of coming out with products that they hope will sell.

Click to expand...

No my implication is that they don't have a full product mix. That is a higher end model with integral VF to cater for different preferences. Panasonic have this and now Sony do too. Considering in Olympus' own words then Pens are the future; where is the diversity in their product range. Perhaps the fact that NEX-7 is at about number 20 in the Amazon sales charts and the EP-3 number 88 may focus their minds.

CharlesB58 said:

But then you resort to this last line, which pretty much blows your credibility completely IMO. Resorting to terms such as "retards" is childish as well as offensive.

Click to expand...

Yes this was uncalled for, but is born out of frustration at seeing the decline of a camera company i have used professionally for over ten years.

Nikon's mirrorless entry, assuming it is anything like it's rumored to be with a slightly smaller than 4/3 sensor, boosts the emerging mirrorless market in a couple of ways.

It legitimizes mirrorless/compact to a lot of people. There is a substantial segment of the enthusiast market that won't consider a product unless Canon or Nikon makes one. Right or wrong, that's the way people are. Nikon's entry is nothing less than the opening of Pandora's box, it gets a lot of enthusiasts looking at mirrorless, but they also may see M4/3's extensive glass selection, or the high body specs of NEX7.

The smaller sensor flies in the face of 'bigger is better'. If Pentax does this, people chuckle. If Nikon does this, people sit up and take notice. Sony has pinned its hopes on large sensor/small body/large lenses. Trouble is, big glass on small body is just plain clumsy, as I learned with SHG on Pen. You can use it, but it's not ideal, and apparently Sony doesn't have the optical prowess to design compact high end lenses. When a company of Nikon's stature chooses to go with a smaller sensor, it does tend to deflate the 'bigger is better' line of thinking. Even if they did this to protect their dslr line, this will be seen as a repudiation of bigger is better.

Nikon appears to be putting a quality small package at a premium over sexy specs in a clumsy handling package. Just like M43.

Olympus? The release of the 12 2.0 and 45 1.8, both size optimized, point the way to their new niche: high quality in a very compact package... including the lens. Right now, even Panasonic has been 'downgrading' their GF line into a low end consumer body while the EP3 is more of an upscale product, and EPL3 for that matter.

I wonder why Olympus hasn't tooled up a mini slr design, though. Either they have an agreement with Panny not to, or they have something interesting up their sleeve. Won't be the first time they've pulled a rabbit out of a hat.

Do you think Nikon is buying these smaller sensors from Sony? Or maybe Nikon is finally building their own?

--
'When nothing seems to help, I go and look at a stonecutter hammering away at
his rock perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it.
Yet at the hundred and first blow it will split in two,
and I know it was not that blow that did it,
but all that had gone before.'
-- Jacob Riis (1849 - 1914)

Stay Well,
Pete K.

Pete_CSCS said:

Do you think Nikon is buying these smaller sensors from Sony? Or maybe Nikon is finally building their own?

Click to expand...

Nikon has been building their own since 2003, when the D2H was released with a Nikon sensor. Since then they have put Nikon sensors in the D3, D700, D3s and D3100.

The characteristics of the Sony Exmor sensors are much more suited to a camera like this than any of the Nikon sensors produced so far, so unless Nikon has developed something radically different from its previous, a Sony sensor would make sense. Like most semiconductor companies, Sony Semiconductor will develop a sensor to order for any customer that covers the development costs (either by an upfront payment or commitment to a large volume) so Nikon has its options, if it's prepared to pay for them. my guess would be that having a sensor developed by Sony would be the lower cost and technically better option.

TrapperJohn said:

I wonder why Olympus hasn't tooled up a mini slr design, though. Either they have an agreement with Panny not to, or they have something interesting up their sleeve. Won't be the first time they've pulled a rabbit out of a hat.

Click to expand...

The other possibility is simply that the camera division has been allocated a very restricted development budget by Olympus. If they are subject to budgetary constraints, they will tend to concentrate their resources where they think the bottom line is, which is probably keeping some product differentiation from Panasonic.

Hercules Grytpype-Thynne said:

Pete_CSCS said:

Do you think Nikon is buying these smaller sensors from Sony? Or maybe Nikon is finally building their own?

Click to expand...

Nikon has been building their own since 2003, when the D2H was released with a Nikon sensor. Since then they have put Nikon sensors in the D3, D700, D3s and D3100.

Click to expand...

I knew Nikon was using their own in their P&Ss but hadn't read that they had started putting them in their DSLRs. DPR doesn't list the sensor manufacturer in their specs anymore. In fact, they seemed to have removed the sensor manufacturers from the older cameras specs that they use to list here.

Hercules Grytpype-Thynne said:

The characteristics of the Sony Exmor sensors are much more suited to a camera like this than any of the Nikon sensors produced so far, so unless Nikon has developed something radically different from its previous, a Sony sensor would make sense. Like most semiconductor companies, Sony Semiconductor will develop a sensor to order for any customer that covers the development costs (either by an upfront payment or commitment to a large volume) so Nikon has its options, if it's prepared to pay for them. my guess would be that having a sensor developed by Sony would be the lower cost and technically better option.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the information!

--
'When nothing seems to help, I go and look at a stonecutter hammering away at
his rock perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it.
Yet at the hundred and first blow it will split in two,
and I know it was not that blow that did it,
but all that had gone before.'
-- Jacob Riis (1849 - 1914)

Stay Well,
Pete K.

I think Nikon is coming out with a smaller sensor in their first mirrorless because they don't have to put all their eggs in one basket. As far as I can tell, their dSLRs are still selling well. I see this CX as a way for them to have a P&S upgrade as well as a dSLR compliment. Both of which could maybe help to stem the sales leakage to m43 for these purposes.

And if they need to make a DX of even FX mirrorless in the future to compete with Sony's offerings, they easily can. After all, they already have the lenses that will cover those sensor sizes.

I think they are looking at dipping their toe because that is all they really have to do right now until Canon makes a move. And I am sure Canon will soon after Nikon does.

--
Stu
Eee Six Two Zero

.

Hercules Grytpype-Thynne said:

Nikon has been building their own since 2003, when the D2H was released with a Nikon sensor. Since then they have put Nikon sensors in the D3, D700, D3s and D3100.

Click to expand...

Well, almost. It is a little less clear cut then that. Nikon has been designing their own unique sensors - the ones you list. But they have always outsourced the manufacturing for the simple reason they do not have any such facilities. On the other hand they do manufacture and sell some of the equipment needed for other companies to manufacture sensors - like steppers. And, they have a long running (and so far very fruitful) cooperation with Sony about sensors where they often buy and use basic Sony designs and tweak them to their own liking, but still let Sony manufacture them. (As do others, like Pentax)

Keep in mind that Sony makes many of the small P&S sensors for most other camera brands - like Nikon, Pentax, Canon, Ricoh and to my knowledge also Panasonic and Olympus.

Hercules Grytpype-Thynne said:

The characteristics of the Sony Exmor sensors are much more suited to a camera like this than any of the Nikon sensors produced so far, so unless Nikon has developed something radically different from its previous, a Sony sensor would make sense.

Click to expand...

If you are referring to the back side illuminated (BSI) designs, I doubt the new mirrorless Nikon camera would use such a design. Those are painfully expensive to make and it is only in the last few year they have managed to drive production cost down sufficiently to make them economically viable for P&S cameras whisch sensors are made in immense numbers.

Since it seem the mirrorless Nikon will have an almost unique sensor size, it would not make any sense to use anything but rather standard sensor technology or the price for the sensors would sky rocket.

Hercules Grytpype-Thynne said:

Like most semiconductor companies, Sony Semiconductor will develop a sensor to order for any customer that covers the development costs (either by an upfront payment or commitment to a large volume) so Nikon has its options, if it's prepared to pay for them. my guess would be that having a sensor developed by Sony would be the lower cost and technically better option.

Click to expand...

Basically agree. I think the development could be a joint effort though, both have their areas of expertise in the field, but Sony alone (among those two) has the manufacturing capabilities.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny

Pete_CSCS said:

I knew Nikon was using their own in their P&Ss but hadn't read that they had started putting them in their DSLRs.

Click to expand...

To my knowledge Nikon use Sony sensors in all the P&S - as do most other brands too. Including Canon who does not manufacture any CCD sensors, which still is the predominant technolgy in P&S cameras.

Sony is a very dominant manufacturer of P&S sized sensors, and the largest when it comes to DSLR sized sensors (but there Canon is also fairly big and you also have Panasonic and Samsung).

Nikon (much like Pentax) is always involved in the design of the sensors they use. Some are made as variations on existing Sony sensors (the most recent example is the one in D7000) while others are their own exclusive designs (meaning no one else get to use them) as in the D3/D700 and D3s. But Nikon has no manufacturing capabilities for sensors, the manufacturing is always outsourced.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it!

By the way, film is not dead.
It just smell funny

Yes I think Nikon seems to be executing Olympus's ideas. The Nikon mirrorless's ratio of sensor size to mount is like FourThirds.

Micro FourThirds uses software correction to achieve compact lens sizes.

Grevture said:

Hercules Grytpype-Thynne said:

Nikon has been building their own since 2003, when the D2H was released with a Nikon sensor. Since then they have put Nikon sensors in the D3, D700, D3s and D3100.

Click to expand...

Well, almost. It is a little less clear cut then that. Nikon has been designing their own unique sensors - the ones you list. But they have always outsourced the manufacturing for the simple reason they do not have any such facilities.

Click to expand...

This is not true. Nikon has the facilities and use the facilities to make their own sensors. What they do not hav is a semiconductor fabrication line, so the wafer fab is contracted out. This is not unusual, many semiconductor companies are fabless, including for instance OmniVision, Fujifilm, Foveon and Aptina amongst sensor manufacturers. It would be a more sensible strategy for Canon, since the capital tied up in the fab lines limits their flexibility. Nikon has expertise in making CFA;s and microlens layers, the other components of image sensors, and also has a packaging plant. The sensors are Nikon, no matter where the fab is contracted.

Grevture said:

On the other hand they do manufacture and sell some of the equipment needed for other companies to manufacture sensors - like steppers.

Click to expand...

Equipment for making all semiconductors.

Grevture said:

And, they have a long running (and so far very fruitful) cooperation with Sony about sensors where they often buy and use basic Sony designs and tweak them to their own liking, but still let Sony manufacture them. (As do others, like Pentax)

Click to expand...

The Nikon sensors are not 'manufactured' or even fabbed by Sony.

Grevture said:

Keep in mind that Sony makes many of the small P&S sensors for most other camera brands - like Nikon, Pentax, Canon, Ricoh and to my knowledge also Panasonic and Olympus.

Click to expand...

Panasonic makes many (most) of the Panasonic (and Olympus) P&S sensors. In the P&S market there is so much OEMing that many manufacturers are selling the same cameras.

Grevture said:

Grevture said:

The characteristics of the Sony Exmor sensors are much more suited to a camera like this than any of the Nikon sensors produced so far, so unless Nikon has developed something radically different from its previous, a Sony sensor would make sense.

Click to expand...

If you are referring to the back side illuminated (BSI) designs, I doubt the new mirrorless Nikon camera would use such a design.

Click to expand...

I'm not referring to that, I'm referring to the column ADC which endows the sensor with very low read noise at low ISO's, an important characteristic for a small sensor, which will be using low ISO settings more than a large sensor.

Grevture said:

Those are painfully expensive to make and it is only in the last few year they have managed to drive production cost down sufficiently to make them economically viable for P&S cameras whisch sensors are made in immense numbers.

Click to expand...

Not so expensive since the tech has matured a bit, but i wasn't talking about BSI in any case.

Grevture said:

Since it seem the mirrorless Nikon will have an almost unique sensor size, it would not make any sense to use anything but rather standard sensor technology or the price for the sensors would sky rocket.

Click to expand...

I doubt whether it will use any special sensor tech. 10MP on 2.7x gives a pixel size of 2.4 microns, an in between size for a modern sensor - I wonder where that will come from?

Grevture said:

Grevture said:

Like most semiconductor companies, Sony Semiconductor will develop a sensor to order for any customer that covers the development costs (either by an upfront payment or commitment to a large volume) so Nikon has its options, if it's prepared to pay for them. my guess would be that having a sensor developed by Sony would be the lower cost and technically better option.

Click to expand...

Basically agree. I think the development could be a joint effort though, both have their areas of expertise in the field, but Sony alone (among those two) has the manufacturing capabilities.

Click to expand...

Wrong, as discussed above. Don't confuse semiconductor fabrication with sensor manufacturing.