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Should Ricoh reintroduce the 28 GR?

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VladimirV said:
... more mount modules, maybe an AF Contax G mount module.
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An "A12 Camera Mount G" would be a boon for the Contax G system owners, but, my gosh , that's a problematic development project for a very small marketplace. Not only is that mount somewhat difficult with its focusing drive from the body only, but it has a shorter register than M-bayonet and several of the lenses have significant back-projection into the film chamber (Hologon 16 T*, Biogon 21 T*, and Biogon 28 T* all have deep back projections and protective rear element guards).

I tried the G2 body, the 16, 28, 45 and 90 mm lenses back in the day. A departure from Leica, looking to see whether auto focus would prove an advantage. All the lenses were absolutely stunning performers, but I absolutely hated the way the autofocus had to be catered to in order to get the results I wanted. I sold off the entire kit pretty quickly and returned to Leica M bodies and lenses.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com
 
the Ricoh name brand out there a bit more. If they intend to keep the Ricoh and Pentax brand names separate I think it would make sense to make a few of these lenses. Those who have been lucky enough to use the GR21 rate it very highly even against Leica's glass from the 80's & 90's. Maybe Ricoh becomes the premium brand while Pentax will be their high volume partner. I guess that's a whole other topic.
--
Cheers,
Snowbird_UT
 
VladimirV said:
Snowbird_UT said:
Maybe just rebadge the CV Ultron 28 and call it good to go. Offer the Body, A12Mount, EVF and GR 28 for around $1500us?
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Rebadging the Ultron would not really make sense but re-releasing the GR 28mm lens would be a great move since it's one of the smallest f2.8 28mm lenses you can find and the build is superb.
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I am not sure re-releasing an old lens is such a good idea. If Ricoh are going to release manual focus M mount lenses I think they would want to improve the design of the lenses and optimise them for use with the sensor in the M-module, just as Leica are doing with their new lenses.
VladimirV said:
Not to release it as a kit with the GXR Mount but to release their own lenses would be a great move for Ricoh so I hope to see some lenses being released for the GXR mount. Hopefully they can release enough lenses to cover the focal lengths people need and save them from developing more A12 lensors and instead more mount modules, maybe an AF Contax G mount module.

--
http://ricoh-gr-diary.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cristiansorega/
http://jpgmag.com/people/Cristian
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VladimirV said:
Pangloss said:
+1 for an A16/21mm or A16/24mm GXR module. I don't see the need for a very fast lens/shallow dof at these focal lengths, so f/3.5 max aperture or even f/4.5, and I'll be very happy.
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Take a Voigtlander 15mm f4.5 lens and put on the GXR Mount (or your favourite NEX7) and voilà, you have your 21mm f4.5 lens in a small and compact package and MF is not an issue at f4.5 and 15mm.
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Why would I spend $1200 on the M-mount module + a Cosina RF lens optimised for film if I could buy a higher resolution module with a modern optical design optimized for a given sensor and with AF and EXIF data for $700?

Your "solution" does not make sense - unless of course you have the knowledge that Ricoh is never going to manufacture a 21mm lens module for the GXR.
--
Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user
 
Ricoh even deeper in the red.

Essentially you are saying that Ricoh should re-enter a market that it abandoned long ago, for good reason: the market became too small. Nowadays this market continues shrinking, with three well established competitors, one of which has a stranglehold on the high-end (Leica), and another one that has a stranglehold on the low end (Cosina). If you want something in the middle, you go and knock on Mr. Zeiss' door. Zeiss, does that name ring a bell?

I agree with you that Ricoh now has to decide what to do with two separate brands, their own and Pentax. But re-entering the market for RF lenses is not among their possible strategies, I believe.
Snowbird_UT said:
the Ricoh name brand out there a bit more. If they intend to keep the Ricoh and Pentax brand names separate I think it would make sense to make a few of these lenses. Those who have been lucky enough to use the GR21 rate it very highly even against Leica's glass from the 80's & 90's. Maybe Ricoh becomes the premium brand while Pentax will be their high volume partner. I guess that's a whole other topic.
--
Cheers,
Snowbird_UT
Click to expand...
--
Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user
 
Pangloss said:
Ricoh even deeper in the red.

Essentially you are saying that Ricoh should re-enter a market that it abandoned long ago, for good reason: the market became too small. Nowadays this market continues shrinking, with three well established competitors, one of which has a stranglehold on the high-end (Leica), and another one that has a stranglehold on the low end (Cosina). If you want something in the middle, you go and knock on Mr. Zeiss' door. Zeiss, does that name ring a bell?

I agree with you that Ricoh now has to decide what to do with two separate brands, their own and Pentax. But re-entering the market for RF lenses is not among their possible strategies, I believe.
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My feeling is that Ricoh will produce the A12 zoom, another wide and tele of fixed focal lengths (possibly with 16MP sensors) then leave the GXR range at that or maybe upgrade the body. I don't think they have the market for too many lens modules.
Pangloss said:
Snowbird_UT said:
the Ricoh name brand out there a bit more. If they intend to keep the Ricoh and Pentax brand names separate I think it would make sense to make a few of these lenses. Those who have been lucky enough to use the GR21 rate it very highly even against Leica's glass from the 80's & 90's. Maybe Ricoh becomes the premium brand while Pentax will be their high volume partner. I guess that's a whole other topic.
--
Cheers,
Snowbird_UT
Click to expand...
--
Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user
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Hi Peter,
fhorn1 said:
Pangloss said:
I agree with you that Ricoh now has to decide what to do with two separate brands, their own and Pentax. But re-entering the market for RF lenses is not among their possible strategies, I believe.
Click to expand...
My feeling is that Ricoh will produce the A12 zoom, another wide and tele of fixed focal lengths (possibly with 16MP sensors) then leave the GXR range at that or maybe upgrade the body. I don't think they have the market for too many lens modules.
Click to expand...
I hope they follow your suggestion. But I would like to note a few things:
  • With each new GXR APS-C prime lens module that Ricoh brings to the market, they advance the GXR system as a valid alternative in the mirrorless camera market.
  • If they stop developing APS-C prime modules for the GXR at this point, the system is dead: 28mm and 50mm macro lens choices is not nearly enough to keep the system as a valid alternative in the market.
  • The GXR-M is a product for a niche within a niche. How fast this niche will be saturated at the low volume of 3000 units per month is anyone's guess. But sooner or later this product is going to leave the market.
  • The competition is moving. Ricoh has to keep developing new products to keep up.
--
Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user
 
Pangloss said:
I hope they follow your suggestion. But I would like to note a few things:
  • With each new GXR APS-C prime lens module that Ricoh brings to the market, they advance the GXR system as a valid alternative in the mirrorless camera market.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately the current modules have not really established the GXR system above the competition and it has pretty much been overshadowed by the competition. I doubt more lensors will change this.
Pangloss said:
  • If they stop developing APS-C prime modules for the GXR at this point, the system is dead: 28mm and 50mm macro lens choices is not nearly enough to keep the system as a valid alternative in the market.
Click to expand...
They can develop the APS prime modules but even you are not happy with the current 12 MP sensor and will probably be the first to shout foul if Ricoh re-releases the modules with a better sensor but same lenses. Releasing more fixed lens modules seems pointless since there will always be people complaining about not getting their preferred focal length or sensor matched together. If they release a A12 21mm module you will complain about them using the same old sensor again, if they release a A16 40mm module you would complain that it's not a 35mm instead and so on.
Pangloss said:
  • The GXR-M is a product for a niche within a niche. How fast this niche will be saturated at the low volume of 3000 units per month is anyone's guess. But sooner or later this product is going to leave the market.
Click to expand...
The GXR Mount as it is now might be a niche product but has given more visibility to the GXR system than all the other modules combined. So more mount modules will only improve on this, they don't need to be for legacy lenses only but can be for m4/3 to gain direct access to the mirrroless system with the biggest lens selection. Or release a FF M mount and this would give them access to all Leica M9 buyers.
Pangloss said:
  • The competition is moving. Ricoh has to keep developing new products to keep up.
Click to expand...
Ricoh does need new products but these are not more lensor modules, they need more daring and innovative modules like the current GXR mount. They need modules offering something you can't get from the competition.

--
http://ricoh-gr-diary.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cristiansorega/
http://jpgmag.com/people/Cristian
 
Pangloss said:
Pangloss said:
Take a Voigtlander 15mm f4.5 lens and put on the GXR Mount (or your favourite NEX7) and voilà, you have your 21mm f4.5 lens in a small and compact package and MF is not an issue at f4.5 and 15mm.
Click to expand...
Why would I spend $1200 on the M-mount module + a Cosina RF lens optimised for film if I could buy a higher resolution module with a modern optical design optimized for a given sensor and with AF and EXIF data for $700?

Your "solution" does not make sense - unless of course you have the knowledge that Ricoh is never going to manufacture a 21mm lens module for the GXR.
Click to expand...
Because this is available now vs the other alternative which might never exist and if it does will probably sell only one copy to you, doubt a lot of people would like a fixed lens module starting at f3.5 (I know I wouldn't since it would be worse than what I can get right now for m4/3).

Also the thing you keep ignoring is that one GXR Mount module for $600 will give you a 21mm lens if you pair it with a 15mm Voigtlander lens, or it will give you a 75mm f1.1 lens paired with a different Voigtlander lens, or give you any other focal length you like by buying only one module and different lenses.

The beauty of this is that all of these lenses will work on any other interchangeable lens camera you will be able to buy in the next 5 years including in a new GXR mount A24 module or a GXR mount FF module and not be bolted on to the same (as you call it) inferior 12 MP sensor which now is not matching up to the great Sony NEX sensors (or what were your exact words?).

All these lenses you think are overpriced are in fact very cheap because first they don't lose their value (something that can't be said about fixed lens cameras/modules) and they work on a whole range of both film and digital cameras now and will do so in the future. So buy the lens once for $600 and use it on a range of cameras made in the last 50 years till today and future cameras, too.

--
http://ricoh-gr-diary.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cristiansorega/
http://jpgmag.com/people/Cristian
 
VladimirV said:
Ricoh does need new products but these are not more lensor modules, they need more daring and innovative modules like the current GXR mount. They need modules offering something you can't get from the competition.
Click to expand...
The GXR body is starting to become a liability : because of it's age, it does not have the buffer size or speed to cope with the newer 16/24 MB sensors or process AVCHD 2 1080p video etc. The body limitations also restrict future innovative modules.

I'm guessing that the GXR-M will save the system in the short term - until a joint Ricoh/Pentax short register AF mount is developed.

A new body buys existing A12 owners a few more years without feeling let down.
I see an EVF equipped GXR-II body and a GXR -microPK module.
But also a lower cost GF3/NEX3 like non-modular Pentax microPK body with APS-C.

I also think that a 24-80 AF zoom would launch with the microPK module/body.
 
VladimirV said:
Pangloss said:
+1 for an A16/21mm or A16/24mm GXR module. I don't see the need for a very fast lens/shallow dof at these focal lengths, so f/3.5 max aperture or even f/4.5, and I'll be very happy.
Click to expand...
Take a Voigtlander 15mm f4.5 lens and put on the GXR Mount (or your favourite NEX7) and voilà, you have your 21mm f4.5 lens in a small and compact package and MF is not an issue at f4.5 and 15mm.

--
http://ricoh-gr-diary.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cristiansorega/
http://jpgmag.com/people/Cristian
Click to expand...
I took some advice from others mentioning this on the forum and have done exactly that.

As a side issue: usually people notice the name in the lens more than anything else.

Running around with my Panasonic LC1 with it's nice Leica-like shape and Leica lens most people were convinced it was indeed a Leica camera.

So with the M mount module about the traps we might see a sudden interest by the public in the new "Voigtlander", "Ziess", "Leica", etc and of course "Jupiter" and "Industar" (in no particular order - grin) compact EVIL type digital cameras. Might even see a "Ricoh" as well if I fit my GR28.

Those that buy the camera might not be confused but the rest of the public might. Not that this is any issue other than for Ricoh. They may not get the full kudos that they deserve for the effort.

All bets must be on the table. The M mount module must be useful. The lens modules are the underlying idea behind the GXR and more might be developed. However the money is in the lenses and they are more quickly and easily developed than full modules and do not rely on a coupled sensor. Surely even if Ricoh has no present plans to make M mount lenses the idea cannot be completely out of the question.

Notably the more complex, desirable and expensive the lens the less sense it makes to insert it into a fixed in time sensor module.

Frankly I don't care much myself whatever happens but mention it for what it might be worth.

--
Tom Caldwell
 
Pangloss said:
VladimirV said:
Pangloss said:
+1 for an A16/21mm or A16/24mm GXR module. I don't see the need for a very fast lens/shallow dof at these focal lengths, so f/3.5 max aperture or even f/4.5, and I'll be very happy.
Click to expand...
Take a Voigtlander 15mm f4.5 lens and put on the GXR Mount (or your favourite NEX7) and voilà, you have your 21mm f4.5 lens in a small and compact package and MF is not an issue at f4.5 and 15mm.
Click to expand...
Why would I spend $1200 on the M-mount module + a Cosina RF lens optimised for film if I could buy a higher resolution module with a modern optical design optimized for a given sensor and with AF and EXIF data for $700?

Your "solution" does not make sense - unless of course you have the knowledge that Ricoh is never going to manufacture a 21mm lens module for the GXR.
--
Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user
Click to expand...
There are a few doing exactly this Andrew which just demonstrates that common sense just isn't that common.

Beside my Voigtlander 15mm f4.5 in ltm fits not only the GXR-M but also my Samsung NX gear and on a NEX-7 should it prove irresistable.

Not saying a word against the 21mm module, I am sure it will be very good when it arrives and will fit on the GXR body and all it's successors for evermore. The A12 sensor is not going to be a limiting factor as I personally am convinced that the A12 is simply good enough to see me out.

--
Tom Caldwell
 
On the parade that is.
Pangloss said:
fhorn1 said:
Pangloss said:
I agree with you that Ricoh now has to decide what to do with two separate brands, their own and Pentax. But re-entering the market for RF lenses is not among their possible strategies, I believe.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Well so they reckon, we have to believe that.
Pangloss said:
Pangloss said:
My feeling is that Ricoh will produce the A12 zoom, another wide and tele of fixed focal lengths (possibly with 16MP sensors) then leave the GXR range at that or maybe upgrade the body. I don't think they have the market for too many lens modules.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I think that maybe they will start releasing more lens modules in similar but not the same focal specification when they uprate the sensor. Therefore the old lens modules might not be directly superseded but rather the gaps filled. Of course the A12 modules would still be sold at reduced prices. Something like the way they market the CX series.

For example somthing like a A16 or A24 50mm f1.4 non macro might sit well against the current A12 50mm f2.5 macro.
Pangloss said:
I hope they follow your suggestion. But I would like to note a few things:
  • With each new GXR APS-C prime lens module that Ricoh brings to the market, they advance the GXR system as a valid alternative in the mirrorless camera market.
  • If they stop developing APS-C prime modules for the GXR at this point, the system is dead: 28mm and 50mm macro lens choices is not nearly enough to keep the system as a valid alternative in the market.
Click to expand...
Tend to agree but they are unlikely to give up I think, maybe not rush them out, just steady steady so that everybody can buy each and every module that is released (except perhaps the M mount module of course). What would be the point if they offered 20 modules in one session? Everyone would go wild, buy two modules each and then complain that their favourite focal length had been overlooked.
Pangloss said:
  • The GXR-M is a product for a niche within a niche. How fast this niche will be saturated at the low volume of 3000 units per month is anyone's guess. But sooner or later this product is going to leave the market.
Click to expand...
It is not so much 3,000 units per month but how many months the product run will continue. However no matter what the GXR-M units will be the longest lived product in the range. Might not sell in huge quantities but they are not going to be in the discard pile either.
Pangloss said:
  • The competition is moving. Ricoh has to keep developing new products to keep up.
--
Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user
Click to expand...
--
Tom Caldwell
 
do ricoh people follow these forum pages? does anyone know that?
 
VladimirV said:
Snowbird_UT said:
Maybe just rebadge the CV Ultron 28 and call it good to go. Offer the Body, A12Mount, EVF and GR 28 for around $1500us?
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Rebadging the Ultron would not really make sense but re-releasing the GR 28mm lens would be a great move since it's one of the smallest f2.8 28mm lenses you can find and the build is superb.

Not to release it as a kit with the GXR Mount but to release their own lenses would be a great move for Ricoh so I hope to see some lenses being released for the GXR mount. Hopefully they can release enough lenses to cover the focal lengths people need and save them from developing more A12 lensors and instead more mount modules, maybe an AF Contax G mount module.
Click to expand...
It's this kind of thinking (which I can only describe as "Delirium Forumerens", because it is so typical of some forum members) that has led to the development and release of the M-mount module.

We'll soon be able to observe with our own eyes and in real time whether the M-mount module is a total marketing fiasco or a brilliant success, or something in between these two extremes.

--
Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user
 
rondom said:
do ricoh people follow these forum pages? does anyone know that?
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I hope not, otherwise they will be devastated for the future of their company according to Pangloss's insights :-)
 
What if Ricoh released a limited edition GR28 lens as part of a deluxe package that included the module and a body? Put it in a nice wooden box with red velvet lining and all the bells and whistles. Heck, didn't Fuji do that with a limited edition X100?

I'm not sure if Ricoh has that kind of collector's cachet, though. But it's a fun idea. I'll bet that if Ricoh thought there was a market, they would do a limited edition GR1v with updated technology. If Fuji can make a limited Japan-only luxury film compact like the Klasse, then Ricoh could as well.
--
Archiver - Loving Every Image Captured Always
http://www.flickr.com/photos/archiver/
 
Alan,
Earthrise said:
rondom said:
do ricoh people follow these forum pages? does anyone know that?
Click to expand...
I hope not, otherwise they will be devastated for the future of their company according to Pangloss's insights :-)
Click to expand...
Reality check: Ricoh's camera division has been bleeding company money for the last 12 quarters continuously, Japan suffered a major natural disaster followed by the second most serious nuclear accident in the history of mankind a few months ago, and the world economy is on the verge of a major recession. At the same time the mirrorless market is being flooded with new, interesting products.

And some guys here are suggesting that Ricoh should reintroduce a RF manual focus lens it stopped manufacturing some 10 years ago or so? Please...

I don't think it's my "insights" that could undermine Ricoh people's morale. Forum posts are just that, they have zero weight in any company's decision making process.
Thankfully.
--
Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user
 
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