crabster
Well-known member
Which of the two is better and why? Thanks!
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Whats the difference between Pigment black and dye black?
- Thread starter crabster
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Clark Hampton
Senior Member
There are pluses and minuses of each. hear they are.
Dye based have a wider color gamut. But pigment is getting closer
Pigment based inks last a very long time before fading.
pigment based ink is like paint used for painting.
That's about it. other than those differences, it's the printer's ability to lay them down well that counts and the paper that is used.
Oh, pigment based ink can be used effectively on lots of various materials such as cloth and other highly textured surfaces as well like 100% cotton rag paper.
Dye based have a wider color gamut. But pigment is getting closer
Pigment based inks last a very long time before fading.
pigment based ink is like paint used for painting.
That's about it. other than those differences, it's the printer's ability to lay them down well that counts and the paper that is used.
Oh, pigment based ink can be used effectively on lots of various materials such as cloth and other highly textured surfaces as well like 100% cotton rag paper.
I have been using at least 3 types of black ink.
Dye black ink like T007 that is used in 1280 is completely black. Rich black and very water sensitive. Printing on a plain paper - it will smear when wet and also the dye ink. It's also was accused of not as durable as the pigment ink. The combination of these dye based ink on certain paper (mostly PGPP) is also subjective to the color shift which is called "orange shift" and that's the main reason I swtiched to use the pigment ink. The orange shift was said to be from the cyan (am I right, expert ?)
The old original OEM Epson pigment black which I mean the one in T015 (for 2000P) and 5500 and also 7500, 9500, 10000 is definitely weaker black than the dye black. But it's also more water resistant, printing on a plain paper, the smear is not too bad when expose to the water. When combined with other pigment ink, it gave a narrow color gamut and users will feel that using pigment ink is harder to get the beautiful print compare to using dye ink. The saturation is also not as good as dye unless you're using the coated papers. It also has metamerism. And with all above reason, the old pigment ink won't do well for the B&W printing.
Later Epson has made at least 4 types of black ink.
1) durabrite black ink like the one the used in C80/C82. I've never used this black. It's also called pigment ink but somehow the rating is less than the OEM pigment version. Interestingly, this black ink seem to give a very deep black and can print on variety of media.
2) ultrachrome black ink - photo black. This is the black used in 2200 on the coated papers. This black has poorer black when compare to dye black and even less black when compare to the OEM pigment black (T015). Anyway, this black (Dmax) is enhanced somehow when printing on coated papers.
3) ultrachrome black ink - matte black. This is the 2nd black used in 2200 for printing on the matte paper or plain paper. This black is very deep black, perhaps, as black as dye black. It has better water resistant property on a plain paper. Some people said that it's probably the same black in durabrite version but it's not, indeed. Because when print this black on coated paper, it can be rubbed off. Anyway, this matte black is truely amazing on the matte paper and along with the light black give you a terrific B&W.
4) Ultrachrome light black - this is also for 2200 - pigment ink. As it's name light black or dark gray ink. This ink is the key factor of improving color gamut in 2200. I'm surprised to find that it's the mostly used ink for my printing habit (some others may be different).
I wish that someday I could try the durabrite ink on my 2200 because I'm so tired of swapping between pB and mB. I want to the black that black enough and still can print on every media like Durabrite black.
Kui
Dye black ink like T007 that is used in 1280 is completely black. Rich black and very water sensitive. Printing on a plain paper - it will smear when wet and also the dye ink. It's also was accused of not as durable as the pigment ink. The combination of these dye based ink on certain paper (mostly PGPP) is also subjective to the color shift which is called "orange shift" and that's the main reason I swtiched to use the pigment ink. The orange shift was said to be from the cyan (am I right, expert ?)
The old original OEM Epson pigment black which I mean the one in T015 (for 2000P) and 5500 and also 7500, 9500, 10000 is definitely weaker black than the dye black. But it's also more water resistant, printing on a plain paper, the smear is not too bad when expose to the water. When combined with other pigment ink, it gave a narrow color gamut and users will feel that using pigment ink is harder to get the beautiful print compare to using dye ink. The saturation is also not as good as dye unless you're using the coated papers. It also has metamerism. And with all above reason, the old pigment ink won't do well for the B&W printing.
Later Epson has made at least 4 types of black ink.
1) durabrite black ink like the one the used in C80/C82. I've never used this black. It's also called pigment ink but somehow the rating is less than the OEM pigment version. Interestingly, this black ink seem to give a very deep black and can print on variety of media.
2) ultrachrome black ink - photo black. This is the black used in 2200 on the coated papers. This black has poorer black when compare to dye black and even less black when compare to the OEM pigment black (T015). Anyway, this black (Dmax) is enhanced somehow when printing on coated papers.
3) ultrachrome black ink - matte black. This is the 2nd black used in 2200 for printing on the matte paper or plain paper. This black is very deep black, perhaps, as black as dye black. It has better water resistant property on a plain paper. Some people said that it's probably the same black in durabrite version but it's not, indeed. Because when print this black on coated paper, it can be rubbed off. Anyway, this matte black is truely amazing on the matte paper and along with the light black give you a terrific B&W.
4) Ultrachrome light black - this is also for 2200 - pigment ink. As it's name light black or dark gray ink. This ink is the key factor of improving color gamut in 2200. I'm surprised to find that it's the mostly used ink for my printing habit (some others may be different).
I wish that someday I could try the durabrite ink on my 2200 because I'm so tired of swapping between pB and mB. I want to the black that black enough and still can print on every media like Durabrite black.
Kui
crabster
Well-known member
John W Mills
Well-known member
The Matte black for the 2200 (ultraChrome) is the same black pigment ink as the Pigmented (Durabrite) C80,C82 black. The primary colors in the C80, C82 (branded DuraBrite by Epson) are the exact same formulation as the primary colors in the 2200 (branded UltraChrome). The purpose of the two different brandings is to prevent end-users from buying the wrong cartridge for their printer, since the cartridges are physically interchangeable...only the smart chips prevent you from using the cartridges in different printers. This is similar reason that Canon BCI-3e and BCI-6 are coded the way they are. The BCI-3eblack and BCI-6 black are different while the 3 primary colors are identical in formulation so the coding prevents users from accidentally buying the wrong black.
The Photo Black and Light Black are unique to the 6 and 7 color epson printers. They were designed specifically to permit pigmented printers to
print with a true black on glossy papers. The light black is a low density version of the Photo black (exactly as the PM and PC are low denisty versions of M and C). These two blacks have a colored dispersant like the color inks making them eminently suitable for fine art and photo-reproduction.
The matte black does not have a dispersant (being a pure carbon pigment).
The lack of a dispersant makes it excellent for non-glossy papers, producing
crisp sharp blacks for text, line art, and non-photo renderings.
UltraChrome and Durabrite colors have a small amount of liquid colorant in the pigment dispersant to brighten the colors for initial print appearance,
this rapid disappears in long term exposure leaving the pigment colorant
which has a very long display life on most papers. The liquid colorant can be
made to last longer on acid-free papers ( up to about 9-12 years, the pigment can last about 70-100 years before noticiable fading occurs). Since the loss of the dispersant colorant keeps the noticiable fading under the 25% threshold used by most for noticable fading it is easy to claim the long display life with these inks.
The 2200, 7600, 9500, 9600, and 10600 use most or all of the Durabrite/UltraChrome Ink sets.
--
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
The Photo Black and Light Black are unique to the 6 and 7 color epson printers. They were designed specifically to permit pigmented printers to
print with a true black on glossy papers. The light black is a low density version of the Photo black (exactly as the PM and PC are low denisty versions of M and C). These two blacks have a colored dispersant like the color inks making them eminently suitable for fine art and photo-reproduction.
The matte black does not have a dispersant (being a pure carbon pigment).
The lack of a dispersant makes it excellent for non-glossy papers, producing
crisp sharp blacks for text, line art, and non-photo renderings.
UltraChrome and Durabrite colors have a small amount of liquid colorant in the pigment dispersant to brighten the colors for initial print appearance,
this rapid disappears in long term exposure leaving the pigment colorant
which has a very long display life on most papers. The liquid colorant can be
made to last longer on acid-free papers ( up to about 9-12 years, the pigment can last about 70-100 years before noticiable fading occurs). Since the loss of the dispersant colorant keeps the noticiable fading under the 25% threshold used by most for noticable fading it is easy to claim the long display life with these inks.
The 2200, 7600, 9500, 9600, and 10600 use most or all of the Durabrite/UltraChrome Ink sets.
--
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
Miguel Angel Aleman
Active member
Hello John
Could you please elaborate on the use of a Liquid Colorant in UltraChrome's Pigment Dispersant to brighten the colors for initial print appearance ?
framed pieces and on the inside of clear plastic bags containing
similar matted pieces (from Epsonx7x_Printer's forum)
Miguel Angel Aleman
Could you please elaborate on the use of a Liquid Colorant in UltraChrome's Pigment Dispersant to brighten the colors for initial print appearance ?
- what is the source of your information ?
- is they how Epson improved the color gamut of their pigmented inks ?
- are these liquid colorants essentially dyes that will fade away leaving a duller pigment-based image behind ?
- could the "out-gassing" of these colorants be the reason for the recently reported formation of an oily substance (with a "clear fine sheen"
framed pieces and on the inside of clear plastic bags containing
similar matted pieces (from Epsonx7x_Printer's forum)
- would coating/lamination keep the above from happening ?
--
Miguel Angel Aleman
John W Mills
Well-known member
Examining the ink, the dispersant fluoresces like a dye ink. The hint came from Epson's Japanese website which had a diagram of a pigment particle showing a colored dispersant surrounding the pigment with an "after" diagram showing fading in the dispersant after extended periods of time, but no fading in the pigment. Turns out hey have been using this process since the C80 was released (the C80 uses the same type of color pigment inks)
No. they improved the gamut by increasing the pigment load per picoliter of volume. The colorant in the dispersant is minimal compared to pigment load and the colorant is simply used to make profiling easier, since it takes years for most dyes to fade completely anyway and less than 5% of the color volume could be dye and still provide marked improvement to color matching. If I'm not mistaken some 3rd party companies were adding dye inks to pigments to bump up color gamut, it just wouldn't stay stable for long in liquid form.
It is less than 25% color loss so it should not be "noticiable" under most testing methods. But yes thoretically once all the dispersant colorant is faded you would be left with just a pigment. However most of us will probably be dead by then.
I doubt if the colorant is outgassing. Its possible the drying agentor some other volatile in the dispersant is outgassing, but you're the first person I've heard of with this problem.
NO. If you are getting outgassing it is probably due to a high temp heat source (the sun, a nearby heater, etc...) And a coating or laminate may contribute to such a problem.
--
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
which mean that the print from C80/82 on SMG/Luster/PGPP and Photo paper will have the black appears muddy and can be rubbed off like when I use 2200 - matte black to print on those papers ????
If not and how come the same black ink can print on those papers in C80/82 but won't print well in 2200.
Kui
John W Mills
Well-known member
The C80 and C82 use the black cartridge for text printing only. All blacks in photos are composited using CMY, when you select a photo specific media setting the black is not used.. The 2200 uses the Photo Black and Matte Black in photo printing on specific paper types. Matte used on non-glossy surfaces and Photo used on glossy surfaces. Trying to force the matte to print on glossy surfaces is a waste of time and ink, it simply is not designed for that.
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
--
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
John W Mills
Well-known member
So:
The Durabrite is a super dense resin encapsulated color with a non-encapsulated black ink.
The Archival is a super dense resin encapsulated color with resin encapsulated black
The UltraChrome is made up of both - resin encapsulated colors and black with a non-encapsulted black as well.
So the 2200 inks are as follows:
Matte Black - Durabrite Black
Photo Black - Archival Black
Light Black - Unique to UltraChrome
Cyan - Durabrite Cyan
Magenta - Durabrite Magenta
Yellow - Durabrite Yellow
Light (Photo) Cyan - Archival Light Cyan
Light (Photo) Magenta - Archival Light Magenta
So each inkset is different insofar as they use different combinations of the same inks with the UltraChrome having a uniquely different ink the light black.
And if you put the right smart chip on each cartridge you could switch all the colors around if you wanted. The printer does not recognize different inks it just recognizes different smart chips. Unfortunately the C80/C82 black is too large to fit in the 2200, However you could try one of the colors (put the correct 2200 smart chip on the C80 or C82 color cartridge).
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
The Durabrite is a super dense resin encapsulated color with a non-encapsulated black ink.
The Archival is a super dense resin encapsulated color with resin encapsulated black
The UltraChrome is made up of both - resin encapsulated colors and black with a non-encapsulted black as well.
So the 2200 inks are as follows:
Matte Black - Durabrite Black
Photo Black - Archival Black
Light Black - Unique to UltraChrome
Cyan - Durabrite Cyan
Magenta - Durabrite Magenta
Yellow - Durabrite Yellow
Light (Photo) Cyan - Archival Light Cyan
Light (Photo) Magenta - Archival Light Magenta
So each inkset is different insofar as they use different combinations of the same inks with the UltraChrome having a uniquely different ink the light black.
And if you put the right smart chip on each cartridge you could switch all the colors around if you wanted. The printer does not recognize different inks it just recognizes different smart chips. Unfortunately the C80/C82 black is too large to fit in the 2200, However you could try one of the colors (put the correct 2200 smart chip on the C80 or C82 color cartridge).
--Do you think that if I can put durabrite black in 2200, will I get
to print on those RC papers and still get a deep black on plain
paper ?
Kui
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
John W Mills
Well-known member
Before all this turns into a flaming argument let me point out that:
A) You choice to use larger cartridges as your ink supply is not a bad one, although more expensive than a 3rd party choice, since you can have the comfort of knowing that you are getting the EXACT same ink (probably from the same lot) as you get in regular 2200 cartridges.
B) While I appreciate your need to believe there is something special about the UltraChrome inks, there simply is nothing so special about the inks that can't be reproduced, although I will admit the design has advantages over older pigment formulas used in other printer brands.
C) I would be interest to find how you are filling you cartridges. I finally worked out a method that does not require modification to the cartridge and will have instructions on-line this week. A CRS is still down the road, as I was able to finally trace the entire ink and venting pathways and the only connect point that can be used, without gutting the cartridges, is on the bottom. Since there are no suitable 3rd party blanks for this ink type (too much sponge and the venting mechanisms are drying the sponges in critical areas too rapidly) a practical CRS (ie. marketable) is proving difficult.
--
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
A) You choice to use larger cartridges as your ink supply is not a bad one, although more expensive than a 3rd party choice, since you can have the comfort of knowing that you are getting the EXACT same ink (probably from the same lot) as you get in regular 2200 cartridges.
B) While I appreciate your need to believe there is something special about the UltraChrome inks, there simply is nothing so special about the inks that can't be reproduced, although I will admit the design has advantages over older pigment formulas used in other printer brands.
C) I would be interest to find how you are filling you cartridges. I finally worked out a method that does not require modification to the cartridge and will have instructions on-line this week. A CRS is still down the road, as I was able to finally trace the entire ink and venting pathways and the only connect point that can be used, without gutting the cartridges, is on the bottom. Since there are no suitable 3rd party blanks for this ink type (too much sponge and the venting mechanisms are drying the sponges in critical areas too rapidly) a practical CRS (ie. marketable) is proving difficult.
--
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
My negative refilling method requiring the add of filling port like the picture below.
Due to the multichamber design, I do not think that passive filling (basically - injecting the ink into) will fill all those chamber in one hole. My -ve pressure filling may have left some air in some chamber but as long as I got 42 gm (which I did) for every refill - I wouldn't whine for more.
I'm too, interested to see what's your method to refill. I have seen MiS instruction and I think it's too risky !
Oh John.
so, this mean that I could buy 5500's cartridge ink for photoblack, cyan and magenta then ! (it's $10 cheaper).
and - if C80/82 didn't use a real black (matte black) for black in photo printing. How could it gets quality to compare the topline photo printer (back in last summer, there are many arguments about it's photo quality).
Regards.
Kui
Due to the multichamber design, I do not think that passive filling (basically - injecting the ink into) will fill all those chamber in one hole. My -ve pressure filling may have left some air in some chamber but as long as I got 42 gm (which I did) for every refill - I wouldn't whine for more.
I'm too, interested to see what's your method to refill. I have seen MiS instruction and I think it's too risky !
Oh John.
so, this mean that I could buy 5500's cartridge ink for photoblack, cyan and magenta then ! (it's $10 cheaper).
and - if C80/82 didn't use a real black (matte black) for black in photo printing. How could it gets quality to compare the topline photo printer (back in last summer, there are many arguments about it's photo quality).
Regards.
Kui
John W Mills
Well-known member
Covering both replies
It's not just the ink. There are many printers that use the same ink with only 3 colors and produce images that rival 6-color and in many cases produce results that are more true to actual photos. They do this through improved printhead technology and the controller programs that handle journaling and droplet placement. 6-color printers first began as a way to improve image quality compared to 4-color, however the technology to improve 6-color printing has trickled down to 4-color (technically 3-color for most printers) which has resulted in faster, more color accurate, smaller drop size, and a greater gamut (these increases in resolution don't so much improve image quality now as color matching, since more and smaller drops can be placed in a given area you can have a greater range of capable colors. 6-color printers will always edge out 4-color in gamut, but the gap has become insignificant for most users. Digital Photographers will always prefer the "more color is better" concept, but you have to balance it against cost...Most people neither need or really can afford to maintain a 7-color printer unless they are using it to make money and even then no body wants to pay the asking price unless they feel they have no other choice.
Now about the 5500 the black is a photo black so yeah you can use it. However, unless I'm mistaken, the PC and PM are dual cartridges (PC and C in one and PM and M in the other) I think they have about 60 ml of PM and PC ink each) The black should be 110 ml. I would probably go with the 9500 cartridges instead at 220 ml per color, but it depends on the price.
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
It's not just the ink. There are many printers that use the same ink with only 3 colors and produce images that rival 6-color and in many cases produce results that are more true to actual photos. They do this through improved printhead technology and the controller programs that handle journaling and droplet placement. 6-color printers first began as a way to improve image quality compared to 4-color, however the technology to improve 6-color printing has trickled down to 4-color (technically 3-color for most printers) which has resulted in faster, more color accurate, smaller drop size, and a greater gamut (these increases in resolution don't so much improve image quality now as color matching, since more and smaller drops can be placed in a given area you can have a greater range of capable colors. 6-color printers will always edge out 4-color in gamut, but the gap has become insignificant for most users. Digital Photographers will always prefer the "more color is better" concept, but you have to balance it against cost...Most people neither need or really can afford to maintain a 7-color printer unless they are using it to make money and even then no body wants to pay the asking price unless they feel they have no other choice.
Now about the 5500 the black is a photo black so yeah you can use it. However, unless I'm mistaken, the PC and PM are dual cartridges (PC and C in one and PM and M in the other) I think they have about 60 ml of PM and PC ink each) The black should be 110 ml. I would probably go with the 9500 cartridges instead at 220 ml per color, but it depends on the price.
--
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
for 5500 the cyan and magenta cartridge contains both pC/C and pM/M for 55 ml of each color. I am thinking about your theory about the ink and there are also the variation between each color like - eventhough you've said the photoblack -ultrachrome(2200) is the same as archival black. To my eyes, I think the old archival black is blacker.
Thre are also changes in color even with the ink that I thought it's the same e.g. when I start my CIS using archival inks from 5500's cartridges to the T015/016 which is the cartridges for 2000P. There are dramatic substantial color changes that I need to make a new profiles 2-3 times . Do you think that would happened to the inkset in 2200 - 7600, too ?
all in all, may be I should stick with 7600's cartridges.
Kui
John W Mills
Well-known member
I think more likely that the 5500 and 9500 cartridges are older batches. It would not be suprising to find that some changes were made and newer batches of 5500 and 9500 are out there. Its not like it has been done before, The 1280/890 inks were altered and Canon replaced the BCI-5 with BCI-6.
It could be simple a change in pigment suppliers and the older cartridges have not caught up. Who knows.
Still you're probably right. Stick with what you works until you feel adventurous.
Once I get the new instructions uploaded at the end of this week (keeping my fingers crossed), download them and see how this filling method works for you.
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
It could be simple a change in pigment suppliers and the older cartridges have not caught up. Who knows.
Still you're probably right. Stick with what you works until you feel adventurous.
Once I get the new instructions uploaded at the end of this week (keeping my fingers crossed), download them and see how this filling method works for you.
--
John W. Mills
http://www.weink.com/
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