Is new OLED EVF is as good as OVF?

Howard,

I think we're sort of talking around the same thing. We're both keying in on the fact that there is no OVF alternative. But while you're suggesting that EVF versus OVF is unimportant because OVF is no longer an option, I'm suggesting that EVF versus OVF is critical because OVF is no longer an option ! As in, now's the time to decide whether you accept EVF. (Once you do, I agree, it's no longer relevant).
Kind of like should we surrender our freedoms to terrorists just because they are around.

There is still the possibility, particularly at these higher levels that Sony can be forced to offer choice by failure to progress at the advanced levels. It's not a done deal when the third rate company decides to cater to folks fresh out of P&S. There are far too many people who need and want OVF who have simply moved up to FF or elsewhere to get it, or like me simply temporarily waiting while continuing with our existing OVF DSLRs. Eventually if Sony continues those folks will have to actually face the music if they intend to stay with Sony. Sony is now deciding if they will force FF into only EVF.

Walt
 
OP asked for a comparison. Evidently you only want to hear one side of the issue and, along with Wiker-Man and MZD want to simply shoud down and get rid of those who differ in opinion. His opinion was asked for by the OP and was not unsolicityed. I think you have this thing backwards, it is tea partyiers such as yourself who seem to want to suppress opposing positions.
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Dave
 
according to this guy it probably is:

"The A77 comes with an OLED electronic viewfinder, which purists will turn their noses up at but is clear and bright (even in the Greek sunshine). In fact, if nobody told us we’d think we were looking through a standard optical one."

http://stuffmideast.com/2011/08/28/117631/hands-on-sony-alpha-a77/
By almost all accounts it is not. Shadows are blocked up so you can't see any details (though they are there in the final shot). In bright outdoors situations the finder is darker and it takes the eye a few seconds to adjust. While it may be the best EVF out there (for now), it is not up to the viewing quality of a good pentaprism OVF.
OLED has a contrast of 1.000.000:1 (no bs and no tricks) so youll be able to see shadows as good as highlights and midtones...
The question consumers will have to answer is whether the other advantages of the EVF outweigh the viewing disadvantages. Each person will need to come to their own decision on that question.

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Mark Van Bergh
http://www.markvanbergh.com
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Sony A700 is the best !
If I understand the A77 correctly the EVF has a brightness setting allowing you make adjustments to the VF. If you're shooting in bright conditions and the EVF is a little dark can't the brightness be adjusted just like a dioptre?

George Evans
http://www.wirralpix.com
 
OP asked for a comparison. Evidently you only want to hear one side of the issue and, along with Wiker-Man and MZD want to simply shoud down and get rid of those who differ in opinion. His opinion was asked for by the OP and was not unsolicityed. I think you have this thing backwards, it is tea partyiers such as yourself who seem to want to suppress opposing positions.
Walt's initial concern in this thread and other threads, the EVF lag, especially in continuous shooting mode, is okay. Fully agreed. I share this concern and can confirm from own use that the flipping mirrors in the a700 and a900 OVF are of much more help in tracking moving subjects than the a55 EVF. I openly admit that my agenda is hoping that the a77 EVF improves on this issue, and my strategy is wait and see.

It is when he starts to use the terms 'inexperienced users', P&S shooters and similar condescending terminology in the EVF basket and opposite terms like 'higher level' in the OVF basket - where his agenda gets in the way of any attempt to argue with him based on facts and appears as asking for escalation beyond facts.
Sample:

"Really, only if you shoot at snapshot/P&S level will the EVF resemble the final photo. Mostly because you don't judge the photo very closely."

Cheers from an OVF (slide film Minolta SLRs, a700 / a900) and EVF (Panasonic video, Sony a55) user with a lot of low and high level experience, open for any discussion based on facts. That is my cup of tea . Try it out.
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Ralf
http://RalfRalph.smugmug.com/
 
EVF is beeing pushed for cost saving reasons and because the mirror is in the way of the VIDEO RECORDER that must sit within every still camera these days.
Do you really think an OLED EVF is really less expensive than a pentaprism? These panels are expensive. This is not a cost saving measure. It is a design necessity
You save the prism, the mirror and the mechanics that flips it - do you really think the tiny OLED cost more to PRODUCE and INSTALL ?

I understand the "design necessity" argument, if the priority is for video recording though :)
 
EVF is beeing pushed for cost saving reasons and because the mirror is in the way of the VIDEO RECORDER that must sit within every still camera these days.
Do you really think an OLED EVF is really less expensive than a pentaprism? These panels are expensive. This is not a cost saving measure. It is a design necessity
You save the prism, the mirror and the mechanics that flips it - do you really think the tiny OLED cost more to PRODUCE and INSTALL ?

I understand the "design necessity" argument, if the priority is for video recording though :)
Yes I do. It's not just a panel which if you have seen OLED TVs are uber expensive but also the controller involved. All of this is new tech and costs are sure to decrease over time but pentaprism/shutter assemblies have already been around forever.
 
There are definite advantages of an EVF, though most of them have to do with things other than the actual view of what you are shooting.
The view through the OVF may be closer to reality and nicer, but you may see things which will NOT be in the result, for example when over/underexposing or you forgot to adjust the WB setting. So what's the point ? The result counts IMHO.
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Photography is about subtracting from reality. We exclude subject matter by our framing and focal length choices. We can affect what details appear in bright or dark regions of the photo, or the tonal relationships of different parts of the photo, with our exposure. The more knowledgeable a photographer is the easier he or she can make those determinations. It is far easier, in my opinion, do to this when you see everything and can make those decisions while looking through the viewfinder. If the camera already is excluding certain information or items (such as detail in highlight or shadow areas) because the EVF lacks sufficient dynamic range, then it can make the photography process harder.

My idea of a good camera is one that does not get in the way of the photographic process. The more the camera gets in the way, the less usable it is and the more frustrating it becomes to use. There are many aspects of a camera's design that affect this "usability" issue, but for this thread all we are talking about is the EVF vs. a good OVF (at least that's what I'm talking about).

There are other aspects of an EVF, such as the information display, that can assist the photographer's decision making process. But, in my view, these are secondary to actually being able to see what is in the scene and not having to worry about whether cloud formations are blown out, or shadows are rendered as complete black, to name two examples. For some people, who don't shoot in conditions where the dynamic range of the EVF is a potential issue, this concern won't matter and the benefits of the EVF may hold sway. But for others of us, who do photograph in such conditions, the limited dynamic range of the EVF is a potentially serious problem.

Every time I think about this issue I think back to a photo I took during a trip to Antarctica in Jan 2009. It was late and the sun was going down. Clouds above the mountains were getting lit up, while in the heavily shadowed foreground there was a stream with king penguins. Unfortunately, I did not have with me my split ND filter (shame on me), and I had very little time to make the shot (the light did not last long). I had to frame the shot to get the cloud pattern I wanted while also retaining the foreground stream and penguins in the right location. If either the sky was blown out or the foreground area completely black, due to the limited dynamic range of the viewfinder, I would have had a great deal of trouble making that photo. Despite the lack of a split ND filter, I knew that shooting RAW I could push the exposure to the right, over-exposing the sky area while providing as much information as possible in the shadow areas. Later, in processing the RAW file, I adjusted the exposure in the sky area using various tools in Lightroom to bring back the detail (and color) while bringing up the shadows. It makes for a pretty nice 16x20 print. Could I have made the shot with an EVF camera? From everything I've seen and read about them thus far, not with the A33/55, and I don't know, but have my doubts, about the A77. This is but one example.

I just wish that when folks comment about this issue (EVF vs. OVF) they could step outside of their own perceptions and realize that there are other people who do all sorts of photography that they may not do. As I have said before, the EVF is fine for some people and what they like to shoot, and that's great. But it is not fine for other people and what they shoot. Whether or not the A77 narrows that gap enough remains to be seen (in person), but based on photographers whose opinions I tend to trust more, such as Michael Reichmann (Luminous Landscape), I have my doubts.

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Mark Van Bergh
http://www.markvanbergh.com
 
according to this guy it probably is:

"The A77 comes with an OLED electronic viewfinder, which purists will turn their noses up at but is clear and bright (even in the Greek sunshine). In fact, if nobody told us we’d think we were looking through a standard optical one."

http://stuffmideast.com/2011/08/28/117631/hands-on-sony-alpha-a77/
By almost all accounts it is not. Shadows are blocked up so you can't see any details (though they are there in the final shot). In bright outdoors situations the finder is darker and it takes the eye a few seconds to adjust. While it may be the best EVF out there (for now), it is not up to the viewing quality of a good pentaprism OVF.
OLED has a contrast of 1.000.000:1 (no bs and no tricks) so youll be able to see shadows as good as highlights and midtones...
Whatever the technical specification of the OLED in the A77 may be, every reviewer of the camera thus far says that you are wrong. While highlights are rendered better than in previous EVF's, the shadows are blocked up and rendered a total black, with no detail. One of the reviews included a photograph that had a significant shadowed area that the reviewer noted appeared as complete black in the viewfinder despite the detail easily seen in the photograph. That is the problem (or one of them), and it doesn't matter what the specified contrast ratio might be.

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Mark Van Bergh
http://www.markvanbergh.com
 
Eventually if Sony continues those folks will have to actually face the music if they intend to stay with Sony. Sony is now deciding if they will force FF into only EVF.

Walt
Yep. News Flash: Sony do what's good for market share, and are not primarily concerned with the needs, wants, desires and dreams of ex A700 users. There's a whole lot more people who might buy the A77 who have never touched an A700 than there are A700 users.

Don't like sony? Switch to canikon. Too much invested? Bad choice betting on sony. The sun will rise tomorrow.

PS. When serious indepedent reviewers start saying you forget that the A77 is an EVF then sony have won their argument, and you have lost. Now can you talk about something else?

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The fact that a-mount lenses are still worth any money at all is thanks to the success of SLT.
 
I completely disagree. I'd say that I'm someone who is capable when it comes to using camera meters and their various modes, but it is laughable how much more consistent my exposures are with a live histogram compared to those from my OVF cameras. While I love the bright, huge OVF of my A900, having a live histogram in my mirrorless camera makes my technical skills better, and I don't mind the trade off. Besides, if I really need to see DR in the scene without a histogram, I could just use a hotshoe OVF, or, better yet, I could just look at the scene without a camera. I generally try to pre-visualize photos without using the camera at all.

Really, the argument against EVFs is similar to an argument between those using SLR OVFs and hotshoe OVFs. With SLR OVFs, you're giving up a lot of brightness and contrast to hotshoe OVFs, because it is being sacrificed for conveniences like focusing. Same story, different time.

There are certainly things about a good OVF that I prefer over EVFs, but I'm leaning towards EVFs for net advantage.
 
People tend to resist what will change the way they used too. When automatic transmission appeared in the automobile industry there were big discussions on auto vs manual, when digital photography came out there were also big discussions on which is better, film or digital.

All of you know the final results, what helps and benefits you most won the competitions!

Same for EVF vs OVF, they are different things at different stage of technology. In short it is 'what the camera sees' vs 'what you see'. We are taking pictures with a camera, isn't what the camera sees has a more direct relationship with the photo quality than what you see in your eyes? Besides, there are very useful functions only available with an EVF.

Obviously, EVF will win eventually, whether it is the time of the A77 is another question. From reviews and comments I feel that it is coming close.

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Things may be named,but names are not the things.
 
Whatever the technical specification of the OLED in the A77 may be, every reviewer of the camera thus far says that you are wrong. While highlights are rendered better than in previous EVF's, the shadows are blocked up and rendered a total black, with no detail. One of the reviews included a photograph that had a significant shadowed area that the reviewer noted appeared as complete black in the viewfinder despite the detail easily seen in the photograph. That is the problem (or one of them), and it doesn't matter what the specified contrast ratio might be.
Try as a thought experiment trying to find the flaws in the OVF compared iwth the EVF.

Oh look, it doesn't gain up, so I can't see well in low light. That sucks.

Oh look, I can't have my information-rich content in the view finder, menu dive or review images without taking my eye away from the VF. That sucks.

Oh look, the OVF is much smaller compared with the EVF. That sucks.

The EVF is not perfect, and in many specific examples is worse than an OVF, but these specific examples are not the whole of photography. Overall the EVF of the A77 appears to have many pros for many people, and a few cons. Let's try not to exaggerate the importance of either.

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The fact that a-mount lenses are still worth any money at all is thanks to the success of SLT.
 
People tend to resist what will change the way they used too. When automatic transmission appeared in the automobile industry there were big discussions on auto vs manual, when digital photography came out there were also big discussions on which is better, film or digital.

All of you know the final results, what helps and benefits you most won the competitions!

Same for EVF vs OVF, they are different things at different stage of technology. In short it is 'what the camera sees' vs 'what you see'. We are taking pictures with a camera, isn't what the camera sees has a more direct relationship with the photo quality than what you see in your eyes? Besides, there are very useful functions only available with an EVF.

Obviously, EVF will win eventually, whether it is the time of the A77 is another question. From reviews and comments I feel that it is coming close.

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Things may be named,but names are not the things.
Just because Nikon and Canon has not embraced the EVF technology does not mean that it will not eventually win out over OVF. It just means that they are falling way behind, you can recycle the old technology only so long......I am surprised that they don't still produce film cameras, or do they?

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  • May the good light always be with you! - Karl: A77 - (8/10-20/18-250/50-500mm)
 
Try as a thought experiment trying to find the flaws in the OVF compared iwth the EVF.
Sounds like a good exercise, so let's give it a try. :)
Oh look, it doesn't gain up, so I can't see well in low light. That sucks.
Seriously though, if you can't see well (human vision has much better dynamic range than the sensor in the camera) with your eyes adjusted to the ambient lighting, can you really take a pic. without motion blur? I know I can't, that's why I don't see this as a plus for me , all power to you if it works for you.
Oh look, I can't have my information-rich content in the view finder, menu dive or review images without taking my eye away from the VF. That sucks.
That could be helpful at times. But is that a deal breaker? hardly. After all, I don't have that in any of my current cameras (or previous ones) and I still managed so far. It would be great to have it, and maybe once I get used to it it would become one of the "must have" features, but until then...
The EVF is not perfect, and in many specific examples is worse than an OVF, but these specific examples are not the whole of photography. Overall the EVF of the A77 appears to have many pros for many people, and a few cons. Let's try not to exaggerate the importance of either.
Agreed. So let's not exaggerate the pros of EVF either. Let's face it, at the current stage, some prefer EVF and others OVF, each with different reasons. I don't think one technology is superior to the other without compromises. When the day comes EVF has all the advantages over OVF and without any drawbacks, we will not be having this discussion at all. :) Until then, let's try to make our choices based on our preferences without shouting to each other.
 
Just because Nikon and Canon has not embraced the EVF technology does not mean that it will not eventually win out over OVF. It just means that they are falling way behind, you can recycle the old technology only so long......I am surprised that they don't still produce film cameras, or do they?
I don't think for a second that Nikon and Canon are really behind in terms of dSLR technologies. I think they are taking the wait-and-see position to see how well the Sony EVF models are received. After all, they are the Big Two and they can afford to let Sony take a shot with EVF; if it works, they will follow suit and probably not going to lose any major market shares by skipping a generation or two of EVF bodies; after all, it's relatively expensive to switch systems. If the EVF doesn't increase Sony's market share substantially then they know they don't have to worry. :)
 
So let's wait until we have one in our hands to decide, I for one am not going to let someone decide this for me. My needs will be different from from some that won't like the EVF so they can make up their own minds.
 
Walt. The battle between EVF and OVF will be won in the market place and not in the forums. Given Sony's increase in market shares the war has already been decided. I am not going to lose any sleep over this silly argument. I have ordered the A77 and will determine for myself if it meets my needs. It doesn't make sense to me to poison the well this is not a battle you can win.
 
Far below an OVF? You are talking like you have already seen it. Don't underestimate how fast technology grows. Like I said in my last post that was convenienently ignored. This isn't a simple size and resolution increase, this is a whole new technology with MUCH faster speeds compared to the LED technology used in current EVF's so stop making claims that OVF's are far better than the A77 EVF until you actual use it. You clowns are talking crap based on the A55 and parts of the previews that you want to believe. Don't deny it. It is quite obvious.
Let me re-define the question about OLED EVF vs. OVF
Is the A77 EVF will compete with other 7 DSLR OVF’s (like 7D or D7000)???

We all, more or less, establish by now (based on lots of internet site previews) that the A77 EVF will not match the great OVF of FF cameras as A900/1Ds/D3X etc. in the level of brightness and clarity – but the A77 VF was not to compete with this level of cameras – don’t let the 24mp make you believe that Sony aims this camera to compete with all 20+mp cameras out there – it’s not. I believe it needs to compete with currents semi pro 7 series cameras or with ones that will come out in the 6-12 months period time from release of the A77.
The a77's EVF does not compete in lag time with even the worst of OVF, far below it's level, and we don't have to settle with the worst possible OVF.

Only by ignoring the lack of liveview, realtime viewing in the a77's EVF can you compare it to OVF. And that's a very important characteristic of a viewfinder in any kind of action shooting or panned shooting.

Walt
 
So let's wait until we have one in our hands to decide, I for one am not going to let someone decide this for me. My needs will be different from from some that won't like the EVF so they can make up their own minds.
The good thing with today is that the market gives us choices. If one does not like Sony and its EVF he can switch to Canon, Nikon or Pentax, and/or buy all the a700 left around and stockpile them up for the coming 30 years.
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When I see some self called Advance Amateur that shoot at a higher level than a pro's work, I am proud of being a beginner.
 
People tend to resist what will change the way they used too. When automatic transmission appeared in the automobile industry there were big discussions on auto vs manual, when digital photography came out there were also big discussions on which is better, film or digital.

All of you know the final results, what helps and benefits you most won the competitions!

Same for EVF vs OVF, they are different things at different stage of technology. In short it is 'what the camera sees' vs 'what you see'. We are taking pictures with a camera, isn't what the camera sees has a more direct relationship with the photo quality than what you see in your eyes? Besides, there are very useful functions only available with an EVF.

Obviously, EVF will win eventually, whether it is the time of the A77 is another question. From reviews and comments I feel that it is coming close.

--
Things may be named,but names are not the things.
Just because Nikon and Canon has not embraced the EVF technology does not mean that it will not eventually win out over OVF. It just means that they are falling way behind, you can recycle the old technology only so long......I am surprised that they don't still produce film cameras, or do they?
Not sure I understand how they are falling behind when they still dominate the market. Maybe the A77 will change that domination. It remains to be seen. But, the A33/55 certainly did not (NEX is what seems to have increased Sony's market share the few points it may have increased in the past year or two, not the SLT cameras which don't show up on anyone's best selling cameras list that I've seen, though the NEX do).

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Mark Van Bergh
http://www.markvanbergh.com
 

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