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Photo Mediocrity

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SongMi, I believe you won't find a tremendous amount of high level master photographers posting their work on DPreview. Not that they aren’t present, and have posted here many times and I'm sure some are reading this right now,. but for the simple fact that they are now secure with themselves and their work and they don't feel the need for anybody's opinion, acceptance or approval, and honestly don't need it. Perhaps what you are perceiving as general mediocrity (be that as it may), is really the overwhelming personal enthusiasm and newness to some.

I don't think it's really a "popular acceptance of mediocre photographs", as much as it is back patting. The comrodery and sharing something in common. A falsehood? perhaps. Detrimental to some in becoming better than they really are? quite possible. Motivating and ego boosting with a feel good attitude which is taken with them to there next shot with anticipation in sharing it with us, making sure it is better than their last shot? for me...Most Defiantly!

SongMi, you raise a very interesting topic, perhaps a little on the sour note but understandable as I am guilty of the same frustration targeted to a gentleman a couple weeks ago who had trouble auto focusing in low light with his 50mm 1.4. I am only human, and was not in the best of mood. This was my ego, experience, understanding the limitation of my gear and where it works best, as well as all the hard work and effort I put into trying to become a better photographer. It was all wrapped up into a missile headed right at this guy. Was it helpful? I really doubt it. unless it ticked him off to the point where his attitude was I'll show you, and refocused my insult into his next shot. But I'm sure he just thought what an arrogant jerk.

I know many of us feel the same way from time to time. And would really like to say "Your picture sucks!" but we choose not to post any reply.

SongMi, From your post I'm guessing you are a very good photographer and have matured past the point with your photography needs critiquing. Feel fortunate that you have achieved this status. Just imagine how you would feel if every one with a camera was a master.

Perhaps it's time for you to move onto greener pastures. As for me... I'm gonna hang around. I have much more learning to do. Even if sometimes it is what not to do.

Thanks,
Mike
-

Mike Malloy - Canon D60, Sigma 15-30, Sigma 28-70 2.8 EX DF, Tamron 28-300 XR, Canon 420EX flash.
My D60 Gallery -> http://www.mindandmachine.com
 
SongMi said:
After several several months observing these forums I'm pretty
happy to see so much "photo medicority." The photo mediocrity
exposes the vast wasteland of bad photography, poorly skilled
photographers (AMATEUR AND PRO), and the most cancerous of all, the
popular acceptance of mediocre photographs.

I will liken today's photography to screenplays. There are over
50,000 "new" screenplays written and passes through the big
Hollywood studios every year and only very very few makes it to the
silver screen and even those few stories selected among the vast
wasteland of talent are crummy.

Now some of you are as critical toward me as a critic as I am
critical to the junk photos posted here (and everywhere else). Some
of you are angered by my remarks and I have equally answered your
griefs, most of the time gently (sometimes I have thrown others
under the bus to get through the smoke of arrogance and pride).

First of all, I want to thank most of you for posting your mediocre
pictures to all the world so that I can be sure that good
photography is still a vast green pasture of opportunity. The
scornful mediocrity will always miss the green pasture and settle
for the parched valley and well, lets hope they still settle
themselves to tumbleweeds.

Now, for those who seek green pastures (not neccessarily for
profit) keep listening and follow to those "critics" who cry out in
the desert to show the wayward the way to the green pastures.
Click to expand...
I don't find your tactless criticism offensive, as most of your statements are basically true.

What puzzles me is why you are wasting your obvious writing talent trying to enlighten people for whom you seem to have little regard.

I hope you take no affront in me asking you if you are male or female.
SongMi said:
--
Have a good day!
Click to expand...
--
jrisc
 
In the words of Lawrence Welk, there are good days, and there are bad days, and today is one of them.
SongMi said:
After several several months observing these forums I'm pretty
happy to see so much "photo medicority." The photo mediocrity
exposes the vast wasteland of bad photography, poorly skilled
photographers (AMATEUR AND PRO), and the most cancerous of all, the
popular acceptance of mediocre photographs.

I will liken today's photography to screenplays. There are over
50,000 "new" screenplays written and passes through the big
Hollywood studios every year and only very very few makes it to the
silver screen and even those few stories selected among the vast
wasteland of talent are crummy.

Now some of you are as critical toward me as a critic as I am
critical to the junk photos posted here (and everywhere else). Some
of you are angered by my remarks and I have equally answered your
griefs, most of the time gently (sometimes I have thrown others
under the bus to get through the smoke of arrogance and pride).

First of all, I want to thank most of you for posting your mediocre
pictures to all the world so that I can be sure that good
photography is still a vast green pasture of opportunity. The
scornful mediocrity will always miss the green pasture and settle
for the parched valley and well, lets hope they still settle
themselves to tumbleweeds.

Now, for those who seek green pastures (not neccessarily for
profit) keep listening and follow to those "critics" who cry out in
the desert to show the wayward the way to the green pastures.

--
Have a good day!
Click to expand...
--

Mirafone S186-B, Cleveland Musical Instrument B-flat Sousaphone, USALINE Grand Rapids Instrument Company Silver E-flat, Yamaha YEP-642, Bach 42-B w/Sterling Bell and F-trigger, DEG flueglehorn, Holton cornet w/shepherd's crook... oh, and a few cameras.
 
I must have missed the "writing talent" you observed in this poster. In addition to numerous errors of grammar and syntax (which I would have thought anyone posting this opinionated view of "mediocrity" would have taken care to ensure was correct, even if English is not his/her first language), the poster's point is pointless and self-serving. DocH
melvin sokolsky said:
What puzzles me is why you are wasting your obvious writing talent
trying to enlighten people for whom you seem to have little regard.

I hope you take no affront in me asking you if you are male or female.
melvin sokolsky said:
--
Have a good day!
Click to expand...
--
jrisc
Click to expand...
 
melvin sokolsky said:
I hope you take no affront in me asking you if you are male or female.
Click to expand...
totally an ethereal being. The lofty position SongMi as sought for his/her self is in the rarified atmosphere where perfection is the going level of being.

For those of us here, much lesser beings than SongMi, the PROCESS (pardon my shouting) of creating, learning and sharing is exciting, gratifying and (excuse the following term...I just don't know of a better one to use..) FUN!

I am grateful for what I learn from the others here, and am gratified when I can pass along something that helps somebody else learn. The "worst" pictures posted here have their counterpart in all of our pasts, and everybody is capable, if they choose, to pick up new ideas and techniques.

Personally, I think some of my pix are pretty good, but what this forum does for me is more about communicating with my fellow humans here, enjoying the process of making pictures. SongMi, I am glad you live in such a rarified atmosphere, but I would suffocate from the lack of warmth and lack of air.

--
Walter K
 
SongMi said:
After several several months observing these forums I'm pretty
happy to see so much "photo medicority." The photo mediocrity
exposes the vast wasteland of bad photography, poorly skilled
photographers (AMATEUR AND PRO), and the most cancerous of all, the
popular acceptance of mediocre photographs.

I will liken today's photography to screenplays. There are over
50,000 "new" screenplays written and passes through the big
Hollywood studios every year and only very very few makes it to the
silver screen and even those few stories selected among the vast
wasteland of talent are crummy.

Now some of you are as critical toward me as a critic as I am
critical to the junk photos posted here (and everywhere else). Some
of you are angered by my remarks and I have equally answered your
griefs, most of the time gently (sometimes I have thrown others
under the bus to get through the smoke of arrogance and pride).

First of all, I want to thank most of you for posting your mediocre
pictures to all the world so that I can be sure that good
photography is still a vast green pasture of opportunity. The
scornful mediocrity will always miss the green pasture and settle
for the parched valley and well, lets hope they still settle
themselves to tumbleweeds.

Now, for those who seek green pastures (not neccessarily for
profit) keep listening and follow to those "critics" who cry out in
the desert to show the wayward the way to the green pastures.

--
Have a good day!
Click to expand...
 
You are missing the point completely. Based on my experience there are three main reasons why people post pictures in the internet.

1) "Feel-good" factor. To day is a dull morning and the life seems miserable. The you post a snapshot in one of the photo-sharing communities, get twenty-plus "very nice shot" comments and the life is great again.

2) Promotion. You want to sell your prints or want to be hired to make some photos. Having a portfolio of photos with the high ratings somewhere in the Internet may help.

3) Desire to improve your technique. You post shots in order to get useful critiques, which will help you to make better shots.

I am not sure about percentages, but I would say that the first category is an absolute majority with the third one accounting for not more than a single-digit percentage.

And now you come highlighting the faults in the people's pictures. What sort of reaction do you expect from the categories one and two?

PS The next idea will be to analyse what are the motives of people posting the messages like the one starting this discussion :)

--
Ilia
 
Wow-

Thanks for the link Mike. I had not seen your work before, and was blown away. You must have a really expensive camera! ;-) Seriously- I aspire to images with such rich texture, color and composition as your work has.

As to the original posters comments, I'd have to say the usefulness of a rant like that is dubious, although in this case it did lead me to the discovery of a talent I was not previously aware of. And I'll be revisiting Mike's portfolio frequently to hopefully learn something. So something good did come from this post for me at least. Also, though not a popular opinion, I'm inclined to agree with the assessment- much of, if not most of the work I see around here, and elsewhere is less than inspiring (including my own). But so what! And no you can't see my work, 'cause it sucks! I was a bit surprised to see such a long winded, tactless rant, but to each his own. He's entitled to his opinion, and I defend his right to his express it.

-dc
Mike Spinak said:
I welcome honest criticism, no matter how severe, as long as it is
considered. Please feel welcome to review my portfolio:

http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=67986
Click to expand...
 
melvin sokolsky said:
I don't find your tactless criticism offensive, as most of your
statements are basically true.
What puzzles me is why you are wasting your obvious writing talent
trying to enlighten people for whom you seem to have little regard.
Click to expand...
Melvin -- with all due respect, I must differ with you here. And certainly with SongMi. Even if his (her?) statements about photographic mediocrity are true, there's something seriously wrong with the approach. When the rhetoric is stripped away (I must disagree that he shows a talent for writing, let alone an obvious talent), what's left is simply: poison.

A lot of people can surely improve their work, whatever it might be, in a disciplined learning-situation -- even a very tough one. But few people can make progress or flourish in a poisonous atmosphere. And it's poison that this SongMi creature is trying to spread (whether or not he realizes it).

His snotty purple prose reminds me of the complaints of a habitual whiner who used to come into the forums and lament "Whatever happened to creativity?" The fool couldn't see what was immediately in front of him. Maybe he was justified in his disgust with the displays of trite subject-matter (but this was someone who dissed Ansel Adams' photographs -- they didn't "illuminate the human condition," and "therefore" they "weren't art"). But he'd failed to notice that a whole lot of people, encouraged by the digital revolution, have been making an effort to create something. Right. There is creativity, his failure to see it notwithstanding.

Whether or not what they produce would ring Susan Sontag's bell, they are working at making art. Are they doing a great job all the time? Clearly not. Is the effort worth applauding? Is it worthwhile for all of us to encourage ourselves to make our work better? To both questions I'd answer: YES, absolutely. But should we instead just dump on it because it wouldn't please SongMi? Not bloody likely. What a huge waste that would be.

Improvement...I have seen this in playing music. I play a percussion instrument that isn't often heard 'round these parts. It is difficult to master (I sure haven't); the rhythms are tricky. Not many new people show up at the practice sessions. Those who do sometimes come only once. Then again, some come back. Like me, like everyone else, they start out playing at a sub-amateur level. Even people with a natural gift for percussion have a hell of a hard time with the instrument.

But over time they IMPROVE, just as I did -- when they work at it and when they have decent guidance.

If the guy who shows the others how to play the instrument were as poisonous in his approach to the music as this SongMi character is in talking about other people's photography, NOBODY around here would be playing the instrument. And if the atmosphere in these forums were consistently SongMi-like, they would be dismal places indeed. If photography teachers took the "poisonous pedagogue" route (a la SongMi), who would care to study the art and the craft at all?

So whether or not his assessment of most people's photography has some truth to it, overall attitudes of the SongMi variety are fundamentally worthless .

There's something else worth noting about SongMi-Speak and about the things the whiner referred to earlier used to say -- something that for my money instantly discredits what they write: in the end, their messages boil down to "Look at ME . I'm BETTER than you little people, you lightweights, you of no talent."

Nobody should feel the slightest bit compelled to take that kind of "criticism" -- it isn't useful enough even to merit being called criticism -- the least bit seriously.
 
I've seen quite awful photos that have been labelled 'art' and then admired.

"Oh yes, that camera shake was deliberate."
"The out of focus effect was intentional."
"The under-exposed areas are to add drama...."

There is a lot of cr@p talked about photography, a lot of it coming from so-called critics.

At the end of the day, if we enjoy photography and get something from it, then it has achieved a purpose for many of us. Few of us ever think that our work should be destined for galleries.

If you are looking for internation exhibition standard photography then you are on the wrong web site.

David
 
Paul writes:

Sure not everyone on this forum proclaimed to be an expert therefore, your point is offended to say the least. Since you are an expert and man/woman :) enough, maybe, you should post your picture and let the others judge yours. Most of us are looking for an advise from those who are willing to share their knowledge an experience with the "lesser" photographer like myself. Your point about Hollywood is not valid... sure after spending millions the movies selected by the so called expert fail flat on their face too... oh well some of us must start bottom us.

By the way, are you born this smart or you were once tought by somebody just like the rest of us here.

Paul
 
Dude, deep.

All that stuff about parched valleys and the wayward finding green pastures was classic. They should hire this fellow to write those flowery speeches for Saddam Hussein - the type where he promises that the mighty people of Iraq will descend like falcons from the sky against the unholy pigeon infidels and disembowel them and gouge out their eyes with ice cream scoopers and then fart in their general direction.

If I had wanted to offend everyone in sight I would have tried something on the lines of "My dad can beat up your dad".

Ming
 
And I could say the same about not wanting to meet you. You come across as an arrogant, self-centered... (you finish this however you want).

Do you even own a camera? You joined in July 2002 and have been all over DPR. Oh wait, you own a Fuji S2Pro. So why do you come to the Canon forum? If it is to stir things up, we don't need it and doing so is against DPR policies.

Please see yourself to the virtual door.
SongMi said:
jonlg said:
Pro or amatuer
There will always be someone worse than you.
There will always be someone better than you.
Life is mediocrity.
As a human, chances are you are mediocrity.
Get used to it.
Click to expand...
--
Have a good day!
Click to expand...
--
TonyK
 
People post there pictures both as an outlet for expression for themselves and to get feedback. If all they get is someone blowing smoke up their skirts than they should see it for what it is. Secondly anyone who bashes people for their attempts without ever stepping into the ring themselves is plain and simply a weak little A$$HOLE. That's right you. Enough attacking your character now back to your lack of logic. All the internet has done was allow more of those dreadful family slide shows of the past to be shared with strangers from around the world. Just because it is more obvious and readily available does not mean that there has been any change in the amount of mediocre photography. What has changed is that now people are able to get unbiased (i.e. "I can't tell dad his pictures suck) feedback from people who don't give a damn about hurting anyones feelings. If the only thing a person can do is describe what should be done but not show any evidence that they know how to do it themselves than they are not a teacher, just a loudmouth. You yourself said it that in the past a magician learned as an apprentice to a master. In today's busy world where photography is to most only a hobby no one has time to learn this way. On top of that a one week apprenticship with ten other people to one "master" will cost you several thousand dollars! Again what these site allow is for thousands of apprentices from around the world to try and get feedback from others. Obviously the quality of that feedback will not be as good as the ideal situation of master and student. If anybody ever tries to criticise anybody's work on this forum without being able to give an example of their own work they should plain and simply be ignored. Have a nice life, you just got the only four minutes of my time that you ever will.
--
http://www.pbase.com/davkrat
 
Most people come here to learn and share information, not show off.
I look at dpreview as a vast library of instant information and user reviews.
I think most people here look at it that way.

You are a little too dramatic with your critique.
SongMi said:
After several several months observing these forums I'm pretty
happy to see so much "photo medicority." The photo mediocrity
exposes the vast wasteland of bad photography, poorly skilled
photographers (AMATEUR AND PRO), and the most cancerous of all, the
popular acceptance of mediocre photographs.

I will liken today's photography to screenplays. There are over
50,000 "new" screenplays written and passes through the big
Hollywood studios every year and only very very few makes it to the
silver screen and even those few stories selected among the vast
wasteland of talent are crummy.

Now some of you are as critical toward me as a critic as I am
critical to the junk photos posted here (and everywhere else). Some
of you are angered by my remarks and I have equally answered your
griefs, most of the time gently (sometimes I have thrown others
under the bus to get through the smoke of arrogance and pride).

First of all, I want to thank most of you for posting your mediocre
pictures to all the world so that I can be sure that good
photography is still a vast green pasture of opportunity. The
scornful mediocrity will always miss the green pasture and settle
for the parched valley and well, lets hope they still settle
themselves to tumbleweeds.

Now, for those who seek green pastures (not neccessarily for
profit) keep listening and follow to those "critics" who cry out in
the desert to show the wayward the way to the green pastures.

--
Have a good day!
Click to expand...
 
Hey,

I agree with you about SongMi. He's nothing more than a coward in my book and have written off his postings and comments. I even went to the Fuji SLR forum and they don't partciularily care for him there.

Now to you. :) I REALLY like this photo (



). The color and composition pulls me in. It reminds me of a shot I did with the E10 (will need to see if I can do better with the D30) and it can be seen at



Of course my shot was done on the customer side of the glass :) and I was not able to get the right angle for the view. That is why I like your shot, even if you call it a lens test, so much better. The composition and colors just strike my fancy.

Thanks,
davkrat said:
People post there pictures both as an outlet for expression for
themselves and to get feedback. If all they get is someone blowing
smoke up their skirts than they should see it for what it is.
Secondly anyone who bashes people for their attempts without ever
stepping into the ring themselves is plain and simply a weak little
A$$HOLE. That's right you. Enough attacking your character now back
to your lack of logic. All the internet has done was allow more of
those dreadful family slide shows of the past to be shared with
strangers from around the world. Just because it is more obvious
and readily available does not mean that there has been any change
in the amount of mediocre photography. What has changed is that now
people are able to get unbiased (i.e. "I can't tell dad his
pictures suck) feedback from people who don't give a damn about
hurting anyones feelings. If the only thing a person can do is
describe what should be done but not show any evidence that they
know how to do it themselves than they are not a teacher, just a
loudmouth. You yourself said it that in the past a magician learned
as an apprentice to a master. In today's busy world where
photography is to most only a hobby no one has time to learn this
way. On top of that a one week apprenticship with ten other people
to one "master" will cost you several thousand dollars! Again what
these site allow is for thousands of apprentices from around the
world to try and get feedback from others. Obviously the quality of
that feedback will not be as good as the ideal situation of master
and student. If anybody ever tries to criticise anybody's work on
this forum without being able to give an example of their own work
they should plain and simply be ignored. Have a nice life, you just
got the only four minutes of my time that you ever will.
--
http://www.pbase.com/davkrat
Click to expand...
--
TonyK
 
I wonder how many get there first camera and start taking
fantastic photos. Or it like everything else in life, you
learn, improve and grow. I wonder if you are ticked off
seeing photos from people who are growing.

My Two Cents

Bill
 
Hello,

I just read Mike's message and was overwhelmed with its eloquence and gentle truth. I have never seen this position/topic so nicely written.

Not only has Mike impressed me with his excellent photos, but now also with his excellent and honest writing.

Well said Mike.

With admiration,

Steadman
Mike Malloy said:
SongMi, I believe you won't find a tremendous amount of high level
master photographers posting their work on DPreview. Not that they
aren’t present, and have posted here many times and I'm sure some
are reading this right now,. but for the simple fact that they are
now secure with themselves and their work and they don't feel the
need for anybody's opinion, acceptance or approval, and honestly
don't need it. Perhaps what you are perceiving as general
mediocrity (be that as it may), is really the overwhelming personal
enthusiasm and newness to some.

I don't think it's really a "popular acceptance of mediocre
photographs", as much as it is back patting. The comrodery and
sharing something in common. A falsehood? perhaps. Detrimental to
some in becoming better than they really are? quite possible.
Motivating and ego boosting with a feel good attitude which is
taken with them to there next shot with anticipation in sharing it
with us, making sure it is better than their last shot? for
me...Most Defiantly!

SongMi, you raise a very interesting topic, perhaps a little on the
sour note but understandable as I am guilty of the same frustration
targeted to a gentleman a couple weeks ago who had trouble auto
focusing in low light with his 50mm 1.4. I am only human, and was
not in the best of mood. This was my ego, experience, understanding
the limitation of my gear and where it works best, as well as all
the hard work and effort I put into trying to become a better
photographer. It was all wrapped up into a missile headed right at
this guy. Was it helpful? I really doubt it. unless it ticked him
off to the point where his attitude was I'll show you, and
refocused my insult into his next shot. But I'm sure he just
thought what an arrogant jerk.

I know many of us feel the same way from time to time. And would
really like to say "Your picture sucks!" but we choose not to post
any reply.

SongMi, From your post I'm guessing you are a very good
photographer and have matured past the point with your photography
needs critiquing. Feel fortunate that you have achieved this
status. Just imagine how you would feel if every one with a camera
was a master.

Perhaps it's time for you to move onto greener pastures. As for
me... I'm gonna hang around. I have much more learning to do. Even
if sometimes it is what not to do.

Thanks,
Mike
-
Mike Malloy - Canon D60, Sigma 15-30, Sigma 28-70 2.8 EX DF, Tamron
28-300 XR, Canon 420EX flash.
My D60 Gallery -> http://www.mindandmachine.com
Click to expand...
 
It is unfortunate that there is not a forum specifically geared toward arrogant SOB's. You'd be right at home, IMHO. It would be quite entertaining to watch the participants trade insults. Best to you...
SongMi said:
After several several months observing these forums I'm pretty
happy to see so much "photo medicority." The photo mediocrity
exposes the vast wasteland of bad photography, poorly skilled
photographers (AMATEUR AND PRO), and the most cancerous of all, the
popular acceptance of mediocre photographs.

I will liken today's photography to screenplays. There are over
50,000 "new" screenplays written and passes through the big
Hollywood studios every year and only very very few makes it to the
silver screen and even those few stories selected among the vast
wasteland of talent are crummy.

Now some of you are as critical toward me as a critic as I am
critical to the junk photos posted here (and everywhere else). Some
of you are angered by my remarks and I have equally answered your
griefs, most of the time gently (sometimes I have thrown others
under the bus to get through the smoke of arrogance and pride).

First of all, I want to thank most of you for posting your mediocre
pictures to all the world so that I can be sure that good
photography is still a vast green pasture of opportunity. The
scornful mediocrity will always miss the green pasture and settle
for the parched valley and well, lets hope they still settle
themselves to tumbleweeds.

Now, for those who seek green pastures (not neccessarily for
profit) keep listening and follow to those "critics" who cry out in
the desert to show the wayward the way to the green pastures.

--
Have a good day!
Click to expand...
--
Mike Flaherty
http://imageevent.com/mflaherty/mikesgallery
 
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