Sony’s Translucent Mirror May Reduce Detail in Photos by up to 5%

+1 there's more factors than just sensor resolution which determine final image sharpness. So many more that the handwaving discussions we see here are simply irrelevant. Let's discuss IQ of real images.
What percent of detail is lost by mirror slap in a traditional DSLR?
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The fact that a-mount lenses are still worth any money at all is thanks to the success of SLT.
 
Ad CD AF gains in quality and EVF progresses, soon no mirror will be necessary. I always saw this as some sort of transition tech and can't really see why spend so much effort on it. In a few years people will look at it and laugh.

Mirrors were very relevant as a way to make possible to use long FLs in SLRs that were not possible with RF systems (Leica, Zeiss, Nikon, Canon). In less than 10 years after the Nikon F appeared most pros were using SLRs. It's running its course, in 10 years it'll be history, and SLT will also be gone with it.
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Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
Using the NEX-7 and a good Alpha lens, take test shots using the LA-EA1 adapter and again with the LA-EA2 adapter. Using manual focusing in both cases.

Now you will have same lens, same camera body (hence sensor) with and without SLT mirror.

Then you will be able to do repeatable tests to determine what effect the SLT mirror has on images.

--

The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'
  • Rayna Butler
 
Ad CD AF gains in quality and EVF progresses, soon no mirror will be necessary. I always saw this as some sort of transition tech and can't really see why spend so much effort on it. In a few years people will look at it and laugh.
That's a stupid statement! Do people look at film cameras and laugh? Will they also look at traditional DSLRs and laugh as they too have been transitional tech on the road to mirrorless. If mirrorless tech eventually tales over the old tech still will take outstanding photographs.

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Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
Tom, I think that you (and the website guy) are possibly confusing the mega pixel count with the resolution...

As far as I can tell, the only reasonable way to do such calculations would be to look at line pairs, which he doesn't do, and not at pixel count after compression. Or in other words, he pulls that 5% number out of a dark and dank place (where it shouldn't have been in the first instance...).

I seem to remember that somebody actually did a line pair resolution comparison and the difference there was way lower than 5% - can't find it at the moment, though.

Regards,
Mike
--
Wait and see...
 
Hi tbcass,

In defence of, "rhlpetrus", I am pretty sure he means that we will look back and laugh at the endless debate SLT generated, not at the technology and people who used SLT. I think he is absolutely correct when he describes SLT as a temporary technology on the way to fully mirrorless.

I also agree with, "Godspeaks", point about the NEX-7;- which is, in many ways, for me the camera that the NEX-3/5 should have been but it could still be a tad bigger for my tastes.

best regards, Howard
 
Tom, I think that you (and the website guy) are possibly confusing the mega pixel count with the resolution...

As far as I can tell, the only reasonable way to do such calculations would be to look at line pairs, which he doesn't do, and not at pixel count after compression. Or in other words, he pulls that 5% number out of a dark and dank place (where it shouldn't have been in the first instance...).

I seem to remember that somebody actually did a line pair resolution comparison and the difference there was way lower than 5% - can't find it at the moment, though.
True and according to DPR the A55 competes well with the 18mp Canon sensor. I merely wanted to point out that even if true 5% is insignificant an not visible to the naked eye.

DPR

"The A55 makes good use of its 16 megapixel resolution and shows some detail up to approximately 3000 lp/ph which puts it in a similar ballpark as the 18MP Canon EOS 550D and a step ahead of the 12MP Nikon D90. The JPEG output is also fairly clean and free of artifacts and moiré."

--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
Hi tbcass,

In defence of, "rhlpetrus", I am pretty sure he means that we will look back and laugh at the endless debate SLT generated, not at the technology and people who used SLT. I think he is absolutely correct when he describes SLT as a temporary technology on the way to fully mirrorless.
You miss my point. So what! All technology is temporary. Even mirrorless with contemporary sensors will be temporary when some new technology makes them obsolete. Hybrid auto's are a temporary transitional tech on the road to hydrogen fuel cells but it doesn't mean they aren't a good design today. Rhlpetrus is trying to minimize the significance of the SLT design but I believe he is wrong. I just don't understand all this negative reaction from a few people over SLT. It's an emotional resistance to change that I believe allows people to be satisfied with what they have by minimizing something more technologically advanced or fans of a different brand that doesn't offer a competing technology. There is no logic behind it.
--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
Hi Tom,

I agree all tech is transitory, I think the term is, "built in obsolescence". As for logic, well photographers have never been particularly logical group. Even more so these days, in the age of the “Internet Expert”. Debates rage over the most stupid things such as the use of filters, AA filter strength, sensor quality and “image pipeline”, raw vs jpeg etc, etc. So it’s not hard to see that putting a fixed translucent mirror in the light path is going to evoke a response. The fact that it seems to have little to no effect on the end result will not deter criticism. Some criticisms are valid, though the vast majorities are pure nonsense.

My own personal view is that I would have preferred an on sensor AF solution (CDAF) as opposed to a PDAF solution which necessitates the inclusion of the mirror. As I get older and my eyes get weaker I find that the latest CDAF is more accurate than PDAF which cannot correct for back/front focusing lenses. Though PDAF still has speed and continuous AF on its side
Best regards, Howard
 
Hi Tom,

I agree all tech is transitory, I think the term is, "built in obsolescence". As for logic, well photographers have never been particularly logical group. Even more so these days, in the age of the “Internet Expert”. Debates rage over the most stupid things such as the use of filters, AA filter strength, sensor quality and “image pipeline”, raw vs jpeg etc, etc. So it’s not hard to see that putting a fixed translucent mirror in the light path is going to evoke a response. The fact that it seems to have little to no effect on the end result will not deter criticism. Some criticisms are valid, though the vast majorities are pure nonsense.

My own personal view is that I would have preferred an on sensor AF solution (CDAF) as opposed to a PDAF solution which necessitates the inclusion of the mirror. As I get older and my eyes get weaker I find that the latest CDAF is more accurate than PDAF which cannot correct for back/front focusing lenses. Though PDAF still has speed and continuous AF on its side
Best regards, Howard
My understanding is the A77 allows fine tuning of individual lenses to address any BF-FF issues. For the record I never seem to have problems with focusing on any of my cameras possibly due to the fact I use spot focusing exclusively or I've been lucky.

From DPR

"In addition to the technological advances, Sony has clearly been listening to its audience when developing the camera's firmware - the A77 is not just the most customizable Sony we've ever encountered, but that customization includes a number of long asked-for features. In addition to the ability to fine-adjust the AF tuning, Sony has added the ability to define the upper and lower extremes that the Auto ISO system will use - a step we suspect many users will welcome."

--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
 
Even assuming this 5% is true (and was hardly a rigorously derived number), just how many photographers out there actually realise what is necessary to actually see this tiny difference? Firstly you can forget hand-held shots. It's virtually impossible to hold a camera that securely at even high shutter speeds to eliminate camera shake from the image. Forget any action shots - 5% difference in detail is going to make no difference; composition, timing, position and so on are vastly more important.

Then you have better use the best lenses you have, in the sweet spot of the aperture range. Avoid anything above f5.6 or difraction losses will lose you more than that 5%. Then you'll have to output your images to a large size, or crop them closely and inspect closely to perceive a difference that might be there.
Agreed.

How many times have I read people recommending putting a UV-filter on every lens, to prevent accidental damage to the front element?

All the people who argue diffraction/reflection loses must not use any ND or Polarizer filters for fear of losing 'detail' in their images. :)

--

 
Hi tbcass,

In defence of, "rhlpetrus", I am pretty sure he means that we will look back and laugh at the endless debate SLT generated, not at the technology and people who used SLT. I think he is absolutely correct when he describes SLT as a temporary technology on the way to fully mirrorless.
Because if he is saying we will be laughing about SLT itself, then I think he is mistaken.

If nothing else, I like how Sony is using SLT to get features into production while also working - in parallel - on mirrorless tech. And, providing adapters to allow a less-painful migration for SLR/SLT owners to E-mount as mirrorless technology improves.

e.g. I paid extra for my Nikon dSLR just to get a model that had 'true' Mirror lock-up, while -every- SLT has the equivalent benefits on -every- shot. :)

Why don't other brands offer sweep-panorama on their dSLR's, or 6-shot integration [hand-held twilight] mode? Face detection & smile shutter?

Why do only the 'point&shoot' cameras get all the fun technologies, and people have to leave all that behind to 'upgrade' to a dSLR - when with a SLT they can have both?

What I look forward to laughing about is how long it takes the dSLR-centric companies to start inovating in this market.

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Why is there image degradation?

-- If incoming light is reduced 5%, why doesn't a 5% decrease in shutter speed compensate just like every other exposure increment. 5% is as close to negligible as you can get in exposure. I don't think mechanical shutters are even consistent in speed to a 5% tolerance.
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
have evidence of this? :D :D :D
I do. And if you bothered to do a little research instead of self satisfied little smilies, you could have it as well. The best place to find it is in camera repair manuals because here they give the tolerances that are acceptable. Incredible as it may seem, 25% variation in a stop is considered acceptable. Try this one for example
http://www.soverf2repair.webs.com/
Knickers in knots over 5% is laughable
--
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia
 
Ad CD AF gains in quality and EVF progresses, soon no mirror will be necessary. I always saw this as some sort of transition tech and can't really see why spend so much effort on it. In a few years people will look at it and laugh.
That's a stupid statement! Do people look at film cameras and laugh? Will they also look at traditional DSLRs and laugh as they too have been transitional tech on the road to mirrorless. If mirrorless tech eventually tales over the old tech still will take outstanding photographs.

--
Of course obsolete technology works, just lile a good mechanical typewriter still works for many people. But ask anyone under 20 what they think when they see a nice mechanical typewriter. My daughter saw one the other day and found it pretty funny.

Anyway, the main point of my post was not about laughing ...

--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
When I said SLT's tech is temporary I meant a (relatively) brief lifetime, not like RF (1920-1970), SLR/DSLR (1950-2011+), film (1830-201?). It won't last more than 10 years. That's brief, even in the fast times we live in.

I'm not saying it's not good, maybe you understood it that way, just that ML has the potential to make everything else obsolete pretty soon, including the venerable SLR concept. Not emotional at all my POV. I'm a dslr shooter waiting for the ML tech to develop maybe a little further, in larger bodies that would hold long lenses. Thta's still to come, but it will. Maybe the next Sony FF will do it, the true heir to the Leica compactness in terms of body and lenses. Nikon and Canon better hurry.

You may wish to debate that, but then I need to hear arguments for the idea that maybe PD AF will never be matched by CD AF, or that EVFs will never equal OVFs. My guess is that they will, both aspects, and very soon.
Hi tbcass,

In defence of, "rhlpetrus", I am pretty sure he means that we will look back and laugh at the endless debate SLT generated, not at the technology and people who used SLT. I think he is absolutely correct when he describes SLT as a temporary technology on the way to fully mirrorless.
You miss my point. So what! All technology is temporary. Even mirrorless with contemporary sensors will be temporary when some new technology makes them obsolete. Hybrid auto's are a temporary transitional tech on the road to hydrogen fuel cells but it doesn't mean they aren't a good design today. Rhlpetrus is trying to minimize the significance of the SLT design but I believe he is wrong. I just don't understand all this negative reaction from a few people over SLT. It's an emotional resistance to change that I believe allows people to be satisfied with what they have by minimizing something more technologically advanced or fans of a different brand that doesn't offer a competing technology. There is no logic behind it.
--
Tom

Look at the picture, not the pixels

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)
 
Two innocent questions:
  • What did you expect?
  • Is not the a55 image quality good enough as it is?
The translucent mirror give a lot of cons and some infinitesimal drawbacks - choose what you want (to me the a55 is the obvious choice over the a580 - have both, use one of them).

Should be more than happy with the a77, but we have to calm down a bit - already too many camera bodies lying around...

And a third question (still innocent):
  • The a77 image quality is about as good as the best full frames out there. Is not that good enough?
 
Just how big is a good question. The simple answer, is that if you keep standing further back so you get the same angle of view, you can print as large as you like. However, if you want to print very large and stand close (say within 24 inchest/50cm) then you will have to print to a minimum of about 200 DPI (the purists might say 300 DPI, but most people won't be able to tell the difference.

So, a bit of simple arithmetic. If you have a 16MP image, and you want 200DPI you can print to about 16 inches x 24 inches, or 40cm x 60cm. However, to see the finest detail you'd have to be within about 12-18 inches.

It's perfectly possible to print bigger of course if the audience is further away. However, if you want the very finest quality, and want to go bigger rhat 16 x 24, then this tending towards at least FF or even MF territory.

Note that, despite their reputation, it's perfectly possible to do a double page A4 magazine print on APS-C, albeit some photographic editor will no doubt want an image up-scaled to 300DPI.
 
Alll what you've said is true, but already considered in the IQ test that people discuss, we don't try to compare the IQ without the optics, dielectric layers, passivation layers in the microchip and quantum efficiency of the photodiodes, that will be pointless because we can't get a picture without these losses anyway, so no need to refer to all of those details, we are talking only about the mirror, which is a high quality piece of glass that is intentionally placed in front of the sensor taking its acceptable losses into account. Yes, not having it would be better, but then again, not having a lens either based on that argument. At the end of the day, it's a matter of choice. I choose to have an expensive Zeiss lens in the way rather than a kit lens for the added benefits, in the same sense, it is totally ok to choose to have an SLT layer in front of the sensor for its added benefits, as long as you understand the tradeoff.
It's not a secret or anything, Sony says this on its website, there is no need to remove the mirror and run the tests. 30% of the incoming light is lost and used for focusing, so you get only 70% of the light, since every f stop is half (or double) the amount of light as the stop after (or before), so half of a stop is 25% of the light, so we're loosing a little more than half a stop with the mirror. But that is a price that you should be willing to pay for the faster, full time, always on, AF, otherwise you shouldn't buy an SLT. Also, I don't get where he got the 5% loss of IQ. Loosing light should (in theory) have nothing to do with loosing detail. I don't get the link. Taking pictures in very strong outdoor sunlight, loosing half a stop due to the mirror requires you to only adjust the shutter speed using the same ISO, why and how would the IQ drop? I have an A55, works just fine, if you want to know how not having the mirror in the way would perform better, read about the A580, which is exactly the same but an SLR.
Any time you put something in the way of the beam of light there is the potential for some detail to be lost due to refraction. The mirror is denser than air, and so the path of the light passing through the mirror is affected, however slightly that may be. So even the 70% of the light which hits the sensor would be subtly affected which could - in principle - affect detail.

This is all very theoretical though...I think the amount of effect is so tiny that it it is very hard to notice unless you're doing some strenuous pixel peeping. And there's no doubt that the SLT mirror, like a good UV filter, would have been designed specifically to minimize this interference anyway. The reality is also that light passes through multiple lens elements before it gets anywhere near the sensor so it has already been modified anyway, even in a traditional SLR. Oh, and don't forget that each little sensor node has something resembling a mini lens element over the top of it too, so that's another barrier the light has to pass through which could also potentially affect IQ. So while in principle yes, the mirror does affect IQ to some extent, I think sometimes some SLR purists forget that even in a traditional SLR there are number barriers which the beam of light has to pass through already. So the SLT mirror is simple "another" barrier rather than "the" barrier.

My personal opinion is that the IQ of the A580 has a minor edge over the A55, especially at higher ISOs, but I had to look long and hard at a lot of pictures to come to that conclusion so I don't think it's a difference most people would notice in everyday use.
 

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