Manual focus and focus confirmation

Jim Campbell · Dec 8, 2002

Not exactly sure how to phrase the question but it is regarding focus confirmation. I'm trying to understand exactly what I should see in the view finder when focus confirmation is turned on. First, I have turned this option to on in the menu. My belief is that this should enable focus confirm in both auto focus and manual focus ?

Second, in the menu I then selected the manual option. Then I expect to see the focus confir effect only in manual?

The problem is that I have don't see any change (or at least I don't think I see a change) in the view finder or on the LCD Screen. How defined is the effect.

As a side bar to this question, I went to a "Nikon Day" event host by Allen's Camera Shop in Levittown PA yesterday to ask the Nikon rep about this - or to at least demo focus confirmation. The sales rep was a real PITA and had a major attitude with several of the people asking questions. Most of the digital camera models on display didn't have the batteries charged and most of the questions people asked he just blew them off. Not really a good thing for the Nikon image and kinda har to understand.

On the positive side, Nikon also was offering free cleaning and camera checks by a really nice Nikon service person and I was able to get my film stuff cleaned and checked. Regretfully, the servcie person was more film oriented than digital so I didn't get the confirmation question answered.

Thanks, JLC

Jim Campbell · Dec 8, 2002

Jim Campbell said:
Not exactly sure how to phrase the question but it is regarding
focus confirmation. I'm trying to understand exactly what I should
see in the view finder when focus confirmation is turned on. First,
I have turned this option to on in the menu. My belief is that this
should enable focus confirm in both auto focus and manual focus ?

Second, in the menu I then selected the manual option. Then I
expect to see the focus confir effect only in manual?

The problem is that I have don't see any change (or at least I
don't think I see a change) in the view finder or on the LCD
Screen. How defined is the effect.

As a side bar to this question, I went to a "Nikon Day" event host
by Allen's Camera Shop in Levittown PA yesterday to ask the Nikon
rep about this - or to at least demo focus confirmation. The sales
rep was a real PITA and had a major attitude with several of the
people asking questions. Most of the digital camera models on
display didn't have the batteries charged and most of the questions
people asked he just blew them off. Not really a good thing for the
Nikon image and kinda har to understand.

On the positive side, Nikon also was offering free cleaning and
camera checks by a really nice Nikon service person and I was able
to get my film stuff cleaned and checked. Regretfully, the servcie
person was more film oriented than digital so I didn't get the
confirmation question answered.

Thanks, JLC

Sean Spicer · Dec 8, 2002

Great timing on the question Jim, I was going to post this exact same question about the 4500 this morning!

If anyone can explain in detail how to use focus confirmation please share. Grin.

sean

Jim Campbell said:
Jim Campbell said:

Not exactly sure how to phrase the question but it is regarding
focus confirmation. I'm trying to understand exactly what I should
see in the view finder when focus confirmation is turned on. First,
I have turned this option to on in the menu. My belief is that this
should enable focus confirm in both auto focus and manual focus ?

Second, in the menu I then selected the manual option. Then I
expect to see the focus confir effect only in manual?

The problem is that I have don't see any change (or at least I
don't think I see a change) in the view finder or on the LCD
Screen. How defined is the effect.

As a side bar to this question, I went to a "Nikon Day" event host
by Allen's Camera Shop in Levittown PA yesterday to ask the Nikon
rep about this - or to at least demo focus confirmation. The sales
rep was a real PITA and had a major attitude with several of the
people asking questions. Most of the digital camera models on
display didn't have the batteries charged and most of the questions
people asked he just blew them off. Not really a good thing for the
Nikon image and kinda har to understand.

On the positive side, Nikon also was offering free cleaning and
camera checks by a really nice Nikon service person and I was able
to get my film stuff cleaned and checked. Regretfully, the servcie
person was more film oriented than digital so I didn't get the
confirmation question answered.

Thanks, JLC

Click to expand...

Mark Kinsman · Dec 8, 2002

I too am looking for a definitive explanation. Went back to my local camera store and was told the image will look more sharply defined in the monitor. We tried it with my 4500 and a 5000. Certian subjets did look a little more defined - but it was very difficult at best. I have yet to really duplicate this on my own. Frustrating since the manual control was the major reason for my choice of Nikon. Tech support there is also of little help - told me to read the manual - rude even via email! I had clearly explained the fact that I had read the manual it ws writing because it implied some sort of "outline" which I never could see. Anyone really understand how to make this work reliably?
Mark

Sean Spicer said:
Great timing on the question Jim, I was going to post this exact
same question about the 4500 this morning!

If anyone can explain in detail how to use focus confirmation
please share. Grin.

sean

Judy Arndt · Dec 8, 2002

Jim Campbell said:
Not exactly sure how to phrase the question but it is regarding
focus confirmation. I'm trying to understand exactly what I should
see in the view finder when focus confirmation is turned on. First,
I have turned this option to on in the menu. My belief is that this
should enable focus confirm in both auto focus and manual focus ?

Yes.

Jim Campbell said:
Second, in the menu I then selected the manual option. Then I
expect to see the focus confir effect only in manual?

Yes. If you choose Focus Confirmation > Manual you see focus confrimation only when using Manual focus mode.

Jim Campbell said:
The problem is that I have don't see any change (or at least I
don't think I see a change) in the view finder or on the LCD
Screen. How defined is the effect.

If you need eyeglasses to see fine detail then you will need glasses to see focus confirmation on the LCD. If the EVF is used and the diopter setting is correct for your eyesight you should see it. It's quite a subtle effect on the 5700 compared to the 990.

Hold your camera at a low angle to a carpet or rough fabric such as denim and manually focus on it. You'll see a glittery or crispy effect at the point where the image is in focus. Move the camera slightly and you'll see the in-focus plane shimmer.

Focus confirmation is very useful when shooting macros with narrow depth of field such as flowers. You can see exactly where your image will be sharpest.

I much prefer the focus confirmation effect on the 5700 to the 990's blatent oversharpening. It was so bad on the 990 that I couldn't compose a shot in a leafy forest with focus confirmation on because of the distortion.

Judy

--
http://www.JudyArndt.ca/
http://www.pbase.com/judy_arndt

Jim Campbell · Dec 8, 2002

Thanks Judy, right after my post I read your response to another manual focus inquiry. It is really hard to see but, it is there. I guess I sorta expected something similar to the histogram indicator on highlights. Now after that subject line I think I need a bowl of Frosted Flakes.

Thanks again....

Judy Arndt said:
Jim Campbell said:

Not exactly sure how to phrase the question but it is regarding
focus confirmation. I'm trying to understand exactly what I should
see in the view finder when focus confirmation is turned on. First,
I have turned this option to on in the menu. My belief is that this
should enable focus confirm in both auto focus and manual focus ?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Judy Arndt said:

Second, in the menu I then selected the manual option. Then I
expect to see the focus confir effect only in manual?

Click to expand...

Yes. If you choose Focus Confirmation > Manual you see focus
confrimation only when using Manual focus mode.

Judy Arndt said:

The problem is that I have don't see any change (or at least I
don't think I see a change) in the view finder or on the LCD
Screen. How defined is the effect.

Click to expand...

If you need eyeglasses to see fine detail then you will need
glasses to see focus confirmation on the LCD. If the EVF is used
and the diopter setting is correct for your eyesight you should see
it. It's quite a subtle effect on the 5700 compared to the 990.

Hold your camera at a low angle to a carpet or rough fabric such as
denim and manually focus on it. You'll see a glittery or crispy
effect at the point where the image is in focus. Move the camera
slightly and you'll see the in-focus plane shimmer.

Focus confirmation is very useful when shooting macros with narrow
depth of field such as flowers. You can see exactly where your
image will be sharpest.

I much prefer the focus confirmation effect on the 5700 to the
990's blatent oversharpening. It was so bad on the 990 that I
couldn't compose a shot in a leafy forest with focus confirmation
on because of the distortion.

Judy

--
http://www.JudyArndt.ca/
http://www.pbase.com/judy_arndt

Jerry P · Dec 8, 2002

Jim Campbell said:
...what I should see in the view finder when
focus confirmation is turned on.

Jim,

I was really confused about this first, too. To see the focus confirmation effect, experiment first looking at something with bold black shapes on a white background. When the focus/distance match, you'll see clear white highlights around the black areas. I think it works better in somewhat dim light, since the white highlights are more obvious. You might try it in macro mode, set the manual focus, then move the camera towards and away from the subject until you see the effect.

Once that's clear to you, try more complex images. Complex images with less contrast show a grainy image - the highlights actually appear like scattered snow (they call that a sharpened image!). I have managed to take some fairly good macro shots that just didn't work at all. Try your skin for a good challenge:

When the focus confirmation is set to manual, it only appears when you activate manual focus and the manual focus bar (which I find pretty worthless) is displayed.

Jerry
--
Nikon Coolpix 4300
Portland, OR

A. Michael T. · Dec 8, 2002

Jim,

To help some more: point your cam at this very page and frame some black and white. Now turn the dial to focus and what you will see is that the white of the screen will shimmer very clearly when it is in focus! When you move the cam back and forth the shimmering will disappear and appear again...

Greetz,
Mike.

Jerry P said:
Jim Campbell said:

...what I should see in the view finder when
focus confirmation is turned on.

Click to expand...

Jim,

I was really confused about this first, too. To see the focus
confirmation effect, experiment first looking at something with
bold black shapes on a white background. When the focus/distance
match, you'll see clear white highlights around the black areas. I
think it works better in somewhat dim light, since the white
highlights are more obvious. You might try it in macro mode, set
the manual focus, then move the camera towards and away from the
subject until you see the effect.

Once that's clear to you, try more complex images. Complex images
with less contrast show a grainy image - the highlights actually
appear like scattered snow (they call that a sharpened image!). I
have managed to take some fairly good macro shots that just didn't
work at all. Try your skin for a good challenge:

When the focus confirmation is set to manual, it only appears when
you activate manual focus and the manual focus bar (which I find
pretty worthless) is displayed.

Jerry
--
Nikon Coolpix 4300
Portland, OR

maney gomes · Dec 8, 2002

Nikon uses one of the worse if not the worse method for manual focusing confirmation, it is useless.

I find it more easily to manual focus with confirmation off then with confirmation on.

This is how it suppost to work. When confirmation is on, the are that is in focus should appear more contrasty, that is burned like if over exposed. But, what actually happens is that the whole image becomes contrasty and it all just look like a very noisy image, so you really can't tell which area is in focus and which area is not. So it is useless.

At least when you have confirmation off, most of the image would be soft, and if you scan the image carefuly you will be able to notice the focused area with more contrasty edges.

The final solution is to get one of those 2x eyes pieces for $30 that is custom made for the nikons, I forgot the website, I got one and it helps me most of the time. Do a search here and you will find it.

Finally, there will be subjects that just will be impossible to see if it is in focus or not, on that situation I just focus bracket.

This is just one more thing that nikon forgot... These cameras are a joke!

manny

Tony Parakka · Dec 8, 2002

Mike, Judy,

Thanks for the clarification, I suppose you were refering to the 5700. I have a cp5000 and have been using MF predominantly.. I end up taking multiple shots moving back and forth to get a focussed picture -the distance readout in quite inconsistent. Is there a way to use Macro when adjusting manual focus? Going to manual focus seems to wipe out Macro mode on the 5000

The "shimmer" sure is faint, most times I can not see it. When focussed on the monitor, I see it, but it appears more like a Moire pattern (bunch of crossed lines) than "shimmer" when in focus. Could not get anything when trying to focus on carpet

Can any CP5000 owners help?
-Tony

A. Michael T. said:
To help some more: point your cam at this very page and frame some
black and white. Now turn the dial to focus and what you will see
is that the white of the screen will shimmer very clearly when it
is in focus! When you move the cam back and forth the shimmering
will disappear and appear again...

Greetz,
Mike.

Jerry P said:

Jim Campbell said:

...what I should see in the view finder when
focus confirmation is turned on.

Click to expand...

Jim,

I was really confused about this first, too. To see the focus
confirmation effect, experiment first looking at something with
bold black shapes on a white background. When the focus/distance
match, you'll see clear white highlights around the black areas. I
think it works better in somewhat dim light, since the white
highlights are more obvious. You might try it in macro mode, set
the manual focus, then move the camera towards and away from the
subject until you see the effect.

Once that's clear to you, try more complex images. Complex images
with less contrast show a grainy image - the highlights actually
appear like scattered snow (they call that a sharpened image!). I
have managed to take some fairly good macro shots that just didn't
work at all. Try your skin for a good challenge:

When the focus confirmation is set to manual, it only appears when
you activate manual focus and the manual focus bar (which I find
pretty worthless) is displayed.

Jerry
--
Nikon Coolpix 4300
Portland, OR

Click to expand...

Ken. · Dec 8, 2002

maney gomes said:
Nikon uses one of the worse if not the worse method for manual
focusing confirmation, it is useless.

Phil here at the site said it is the best system and wishes all camera manufactures used it.

Member said:
I find it more easily to manual focus with confirmation off then
with confirmation on.

This is how it suppost to work. When confirmation is on, the are
that is in focus should appear more contrasty, that is burned like
if over exposed. But, what actually happens is that the whole
image becomes contrasty and it all just look like a very noisy
image, so you really can't tell which area is in focus and which
area is not. So it is useless.

If the photo is contrasty and noisy than the object is in focus....

Member said:
At least when you have confirmation off, most of the image would be
soft, and if you scan the image carefuly you will be able to notice
the focused area with more contrasty edges.

The final solution is to get one of those 2x eyes pieces for $30
that is custom made for the nikons, I forgot the website, I got one
and it helps me most of the time. Do a search here and you will
find it.

All I see is a bunch of dots using a 2x eyepiece. Not sure how you could manually focus with it, but I will try it again.

Member said:
Finally, there will be subjects that just will be impossible to see
if it is in focus or not, on that situation I just focus bracket.

This is just one more thing that nikon forgot... These cameras are
a joke!

Still not sure why you bought one.

Ken.

--
http://www.pbase.com/ken_5

Ken. · Dec 8, 2002

Tony Parakka said:
Is there a
way to use Macro when adjusting manual focus? Going to manual
focus seems to wipe out Macro mode on the 5000

Hi Tony!

How have you been? Long time no see.

Manual focus with macro works just fine with my 5000. If you have distance units set to "ft" the scale will read "0.06ft" when focused at the closest distance. If you have it set to "m" than you will see "0.02m" when camera is set for closest distance.

I find that using metric is far superior to inches since everything is divisible by 10. If you can get a mental picture of distance in terms of cm and m you are much better off.

For instance:

Metric: 0.02 is 2 cm, 0.16 is 16 cm., etc...

Inches: 0.85 is what in terms if inches? I have no idea unless I use a calculator. Of course you can think in terms of 85 hundredths of a foot. Not an easy thing to do.

I grew up with inches and feet. Works okay if you are strictly measuring distances. When it comes time to divide inches and feet into equal parts it is a "nightmare!" Not sure why anyone would prefer it.

Ken.
--
http://www.pbase.com/ken_5

PapaLuciano · Dec 8, 2002

Jim Campbell said:
Not exactly sure how to phrase the question but it is regarding
focus confirmation. I'm trying to understand exactly what I should
see in the view finder when focus confirmation is turned on. First,
I have turned this option to on in the menu. My belief is that this
should enable focus confirm in both auto focus and manual focus ?

Second, in the menu I then selected the manual option. Then I
expect to see the focus confir effect only in manual?

The problem is that I have don't see any change (or at least I
don't think I see a change) in the view finder or on the LCD
Screen. How defined is the effect.

As a side bar to this question, I went to a "Nikon Day" event host
by Allen's Camera Shop in Levittown PA yesterday to ask the Nikon
rep about this - or to at least demo focus confirmation. The sales
rep was a real PITA and had a major attitude with several of the
people asking questions. Most of the digital camera models on
display didn't have the batteries charged and most of the questions
people asked he just blew them off. Not really a good thing for the
Nikon image and kinda har to understand.

On the positive side, Nikon also was offering free cleaning and
camera checks by a really nice Nikon service person and I was able
to get my film stuff cleaned and checked. Regretfully, the servcie
person was more film oriented than digital so I didn't get the
confirmation question answered.

Thanks, JLC

You can see a good example of what focus confirmation looks like right here in Phil's 5700 review at:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikoncp5700/page8.asp

--
Ciao,
PapaLuciano
====================================
http://www.LucianoFamily.net
http://www.pbase.com/joe_luciano
http://www1.photosig.com/viewuser.php?id=72554
====================================

maney gomes · Dec 10, 2002

Ken. said:
Ken. said:

Nikon uses one of the worse if not the worse method for manual
focusing confirmation, it is useless.

Click to expand...

Phil here at the site said it is the best system and wishes all
camera manufactures used it.

First Phil is not God and I hope this is not a cult, second at the rate this site is going Phil better says it is good if he wants to maintain his site fundings...

Ken. said:
Ken. said:

This is just one more thing that nikon forgot... These cameras are
a joke!

Click to expand...

Still not sure why you bought one.

Ken.

Just so I can see for myself...

Tony Parakka · Dec 10, 2002

Good Ken, good. Been checking the forum only occasionally after the 5700 came out.. yo uknow how the new kid on the block dominates discussions -just like the cp5000 did about this time last year

Always a pleasure to read your posts. Hope you have been well.

I agree, the metric readout seems a buit more intuitive -I grew up with metric, converted to fingers and feet.. but it always comes back

The distance readout however does not correspond to the actual distance to the subject i.e. .2m setting does not bring objects at .2m in sharp focus. I end up programming the distance, then moving back and forth until the LCD image appears sharp. I'll look for the "shimmer" effect.. it hasn't bit me on the nose yet.

Perhaps you can help me Ken, I love to have the camera in macro-timer mode while setting focus distance in meters on the camera. So, I have the camera programmed to read in meters, and I cycle the AF button till I get to Macro-timer mode. Then to set focus distance, I hold AF button down and turn the command wheel -right? But as soon as I press down the AF button, I lose Macro-timer mode

Similarly, if I set focus distance first, then try setting macro mode, I lose focus distance !! How do you do it?

-Tony

Ken. said:
Tony Parakka said:

Is there a
way to use Macro when adjusting manual focus? Going to manual
focus seems to wipe out Macro mode on the 5000

Click to expand...

Hi Tony!

How have you been? Long time no see.

Manual focus with macro works just fine with my 5000. If you have
distance units set to "ft" the scale will read "0.06ft" when
focused at the closest distance. If you have it set to "m" than you
will see "0.02m" when camera is set for closest distance.

I find that using metric is far superior to inches since everything
is divisible by 10. If you can get a mental picture of distance in
terms of cm and m you are much better off.

For instance:

Metric: 0.02 is 2 cm, 0.16 is 16 cm., etc...

Inches: 0.85 is what in terms if inches? I have no idea unless I
use a calculator. Of course you can think in terms of 85 hundredths
of a foot. Not an easy thing to do.

I grew up with inches and feet. Works okay if you are strictly
measuring distances. When it comes time to divide inches and feet
into equal parts it is a "nightmare!" Not sure why anyone would
prefer it.

Ken.
--
http://www.pbase.com/ken_5

Ken. · Dec 10, 2002

Tony Parakka said:
Good Ken, good. Been checking the forum only occasionally after
the 5700 came out.. yo uknow how the new kid on the block dominates
discussions -just like the cp5000 did about this time last year
Always a pleasure to read your posts. Hope you have been well.

Things have been good.... thanks! :c)

Tony Parakka said:
I agree, the metric readout seems a buit more intuitive -I grew up
with metric, converted to fingers and feet.. but it always comes
back The distance readout however does not correspond to the
actual distance to the subject i.e. .2m setting does not bring
objects at .2m in sharp focus. I end up programming the distance,
then moving back and forth until the LCD image appears sharp. I'll
look for the "shimmer" effect.. it hasn't bit me on the nose yet.

.2m is 20 cm. Just how far off do you find yourself moving the camera in or out from 20cm?

Tony Parakka said:
Perhaps you can help me Ken, I love to have the camera in
macro-timer mode while setting focus distance in meters on the
camera. So, I have the camera programmed to read in meters, and I
cycle the AF button till I get to Macro-timer mode. Then to set
focus distance, I hold AF button down and turn the command wheel
-right? But as soon as I press down the AF button, I lose
Macro-timer mode Similarly, if I set focus distance first, then
try setting macro mode, I lose focus distance !! How do you do it?

humm... basically just as you stated. press the af button till the timer icon shows up. If I press the af button one more time and hold it down nothing changes. If I then turn the wheel the timer icon remains and the flower icon is replaced by the metric scale. Release and the shutter is ready to be pressed for timer.

Are you saying that when you push the af button after the timer shows up the timer disappears even when holding the button down?

Ken.
--
http://www.pbase.com/ken_5

Tony Parakka · Dec 10, 2002

Well, Ken, I think I just made a big ol' AZZ out of myself!

I tried my "prescribed method", and sure as monkeys in my family tree, it worked! Wow! You just opened a several many doors for me! Thanks for getting back to me Ken! Seems like times I tried it in the past, I could never get it to work.. perhaps I wasn't doing what I was thinking I was doing

-T

Ken. said:
Tony Parakka said:

Good Ken, good. Been checking the forum only occasionally after
the 5700 came out.. yo uknow how the new kid on the block dominates
discussions -just like the cp5000 did about this time last year
Always a pleasure to read your posts. Hope you have been well.

Click to expand...

Things have been good.... thanks! :c)

Ken. said:

I agree, the metric readout seems a buit more intuitive -I grew up
with metric, converted to fingers and feet.. but it always comes
back The distance readout however does not correspond to the
actual distance to the subject i.e. .2m setting does not bring
objects at .2m in sharp focus. I end up programming the distance,
then moving back and forth until the LCD image appears sharp. I'll
look for the "shimmer" effect.. it hasn't bit me on the nose yet.

Click to expand...

.2m is 20 cm. Just how far off do you find yourself moving the
camera in or out from 20cm?

Ken. said:

Perhaps you can help me Ken, I love to have the camera in
macro-timer mode while setting focus distance in meters on the
camera. So, I have the camera programmed to read in meters, and I
cycle the AF button till I get to Macro-timer mode. Then to set
focus distance, I hold AF button down and turn the command wheel
-right? But as soon as I press down the AF button, I lose
Macro-timer mode Similarly, if I set focus distance first, then
try setting macro mode, I lose focus distance !! How do you do it?

Click to expand...

humm... basically just as you stated. press the af button till the
timer icon shows up. If I press the af button one more time and
hold it down nothing changes. If I then turn the wheel the timer
icon remains and the flower icon is replaced by the metric scale.
Release and the shutter is ready to be pressed for timer.

Are you saying that when you push the af button after the timer
shows up the timer disappears even when holding the button down?

Ken.
--
http://www.pbase.com/ken_5

Ken. · Dec 11, 2002

Glad it works!

Just how far off do you find the manual scale? I never tested this on mine. Perhaps this is the reason they left the scale off the 4500 and the 5700.

Ken.

Tony Parakka said:
Well, Ken, I think I just made a big ol' AZZ out of myself!
I tried my "prescribed method", and sure as monkeys in my family
tree, it worked! Wow! You just opened a several many doors for
me! Thanks for getting back to me Ken! Seems like times I tried
it in the past, I could never get it to work.. perhaps I wasn't
doing what I was thinking I was doing
-T

--
http://www.pbase.com/ken_5

Tony Parakka · Dec 11, 2002

Ken,

I had used the .2m figure in the previous post a a representative. The things I had tried was taking a tape measure for the camera to get subject distance -I remember I worked around the 1 foot range i.e 8-18" range (I switched back to metric only recently when I reset all settings) and programming the distance in the camera and with the camera on a table tripod -I still had to press the shutter button, I found my subject never quite sharp. I remember being so frustrated that I never tried to figure what was in focus -in any case I always tried to have the subject isolated i.e nothing immediately behind the subject.

Eventually, I started setting the focus distace and moving back and forth until the LCD image was sharp. Alas, this never guranteed the actual picture was in perfect focus! So it was take several pictures in the range where the LCD appeared sharp. I also found, the amount of discrepancy seemed to change with the zoom setting. That was when I completely lost faith in the absolute distance settings. Anymore, if the camera refuses to autofocus, I just turn the wheel until the LCD image appraers respectable and shoot.

Now that you have made me realize one mistake, perhaps I was missing something.. I figure, I'll go back and try again, perhaps a bit more systematically.

All the same, such frustrations aside, I am glad I got a digital camera. I continue to enjoy the compactness of the cp5000, the grip is a joy -I see the G3 has gone this route too. I sure appreciate the G2 and G3's low profile and contoured flip out LCD.. but it still looks like a box. Some days I get great pictures -good color, sharp images; other days I tell myself there's a good picture waiting for me tomorrow

By the way,congrats on winning the previous Challenge.

-tony

Ken. said:
Just how far off do you find the manual scale? I never tested this
on mine. Perhaps this is the reason they left the scale off the
4500 and the 5700.

Ken.

Tony Parakka said:

Well, Ken, I think I just made a big ol' AZZ out of myself!
I tried my "prescribed method", and sure as monkeys in my family
tree, it worked! Wow! You just opened a several many doors for
me! Thanks for getting back to me Ken! Seems like times I tried
it in the past, I could never get it to work.. perhaps I wasn't
doing what I was thinking I was doing
-T

Click to expand...

--
http://www.pbase.com/ken_5

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