55-250mm vs 70-200mm L at 200mm

I put faster in quotation marks because it was clear from what I wrote that I refer to the physical aperture size. Subject shot noise depends on the amount of light gathered on the sensor from the subject per time. This amount only depends on the size of physical aperture (at all focal lengths).
But that size varies with FL as follows:

70mm: f/4
100mm: f/5
135mm: f/5
200mm: f/5.6
250mm: f/5.6

End of story.
As I said in my initial post, at 250mm wide open the physical aperture is 45mm. I have no idea what point you want to make here.
At the long end my 55-250 resolves more subjcet detail from the same distance than either the 70-200/4L IS or the 70-200/2.8L IS II.
Sure:

55-250 on the 7D, 250mm, f/5.6: 200mm:
70-200 f/4 IS on the 7D, 200mm, f/5.6:
Which part of "from the same distance" did you not understand?

Edit: OK, in case you still don't get it: I'm saying that my 55-250 at 250mm resolves more subject detail than the 70-200s at 200mm if shot from the same distance.
 
I put faster in quotation marks because it was clear from what I wrote that I refer to the physical aperture size. Subject shot noise depends on the amount of light gathered on the sensor from the subject per time. This amount only depends on the size of physical aperture (at all focal lengths).
But that size varies with FL as follows:

70mm: f/4
100mm: f/5
135mm: f/5
200mm: f/5.6
250mm: f/5.6

End of story.
As I said in my initial post, at 250mm wide open the physical aperture is 45mm. I have no idea what point you want to make here.
...that the physical aperture at 250mm does not tell you what the physical aperture is at any other FL. If you are only talking about 250mm, then you have a point but you did not make that clear. In no way the 55-250 is just 1/3 slower than the 70-200/4.
At the long end my 55-250 resolves more subjcet detail from the same distance than either the 70-200/4L IS or the 70-200/2.8L IS II.
Sure:

55-250 on the 7D, 250mm, f/5.6: 200mm:
70-200 f/4 IS on the 7D, 200mm, f/5.6:
Which part of "from the same distance" did you not understand?
What part of better resolution don't understand? The better resolution of the L zoom gets you very close to the advantage of the larger FL - the difference is like 7-8% after you factor out the 50mm advantage of the EF-S.
Edit: OK, in case you still don't get it: I'm saying that my 55-250 at 250mm resolves more subject detail than the 70-200s at 200mm if shot from the same distance.
So what? It is a different AOV. Is your 55-250 better that the 24LII because it resolves more detail from the same distance? If you are desperate for FL, then yes, that helps. But if you need the 200mm AOV, your lens does not resolve more detail.
 






I own both lenses and I'll be darned if I see $1,000 difference in them. IMHO everybody should get the 55-250mm before Canon figures out they are giving away near L's at bargain prices.
Wish you had kept your samples up so that I can see them. Without seeing them, I bet those were taken in good lighting and were of a still subject. In that case you cannot see a $1,000 difference. If that's what you need a tele for, it makes sense to save the $1,000.

I own and use both lenses. Due to a physical handicap, I try to stick to lighter lenses and the 55-250 does very nicely. I've even used it for some bird photography and kid sports and have experimented with it in different conditions. The 70-200L f/4 IS is on a different level. In most instances I get a lot more keepers with the L. It focuses faster and you can shoot faster. And when it comes to low light, such as an indoor rodeo, the L is a no-brainer. I can get twice the shutter speed at the same ISO and it keeps up with the action very easily with which the 55-250 struggles.

Don't get me wrong, I still think that the 55-250 is a little gem, especially for the price. And I'm glad I have it.

--
Olga
 
As I said in my initial post, at 250mm wide open the physical aperture is 45mm. I have no idea what point you want to make here.
...that the physical aperture at 250mm does not tell you what the physical aperture is at any other FL.
Yes, of course!
If you are only talking about 250mm, then you have a point but you did not make that clear.
It was clear in the context of the thread.
In no way the 55-250 is just 1/3 slower than the 70-200/4.
Try to read again the thread, maybe it becaomes clear in which sense the 55-250 at 250mm is less than 1/3 stop "slower" than the 70-200/4 at 200mm, both wide open. I said several times that this is not the common usage of slower, therefore quotation marks.

I'm talking about subject shot noise for small subjects that fit into the frame with both lenses. A 200/2 and 400/4 lens have the same physical aperture and the total subject shot noise will be the same because the same total amount of light is gathered from the subject at a given shutter speed. In that sense I'm saying that the two lenses are equally "fast". You will get the same shutter speed with the same subject shot noise. I find this concept useful but it's fine with me if others disagree.

BTW, what I'm describing is related to the question whether a full frame system with a 400/4 is equally "fast" as a mFT system with a 200/2. Many would say yes, myself included.
Which part of "from the same distance" did you not understand?
What part of better resolution don't understand?
Huh?
The better resolution of the L zoom gets you very close to the advantage of the larger FL - the difference is like 7-8% after you factor out the 50mm advantage of the EF-S.
OK, so you agree. But, how did you come up with your numbers?

If I use the PZ MTF numbers: 55-250 at 250mm is 2200 (peak at f/8), 70-200s at 200 is about 2500 (peak at f/4 or f/5.6). The FL of the 250 is 1.25 times longer but the MTF is only 1.14 times lower. Thus, advantage expected for the 250mm.

I did this test myself with the copies of lenses I own and I easily see the advantage of the 250mm.
Edit: OK, in case you still don't get it: I'm saying that my 55-250 at 250mm resolves more subject detail than the 70-200s at 200mm if shot from the same distance.
So what? It is a different AOV. Is your 55-250 better that the 24LII because it resolves more detail from the same distance? If you are desperate for FL, then yes, that helps. But if you need the 200mm AOV, your lens does not resolve more detail.
Please try to read the context of a post before responding.
 
he didn't say it looked sharper at the pixel level just that it brought in more detail
wth is the diff?
to make it more clear image you used the old crappy 75-300mm at 300mm at f/5.6, well the pixel level quality looks pretty poor as well as overall contrast no?

and supposing you use a 35 1.4 at f/5.6 well the pixel level detail looks pretty amazing no? heck of a lot better micro-contrast and overall contrast than the above lens no?

but now stand in a given spot and shoot a bird that is 200' away with both lenses
well the crummy 75-300mm WILL let you see more total detail on the bird

i mean otherwise you could just use the great 24 1.4 II for every shot just about no?
Ok, I see what you're saying now. Of course your example makes sense, but we're talking 250mm vs 200mm. Not a huge difference, and well within the range of cropping on a 60D, etc. Like I said before, I'd rather shoot with a 70-200/4L at half the ISO or twice the shutter speed, and then just crop to simulate 250mm. I bet I'd get sharper results.
well the other person said he tried it and didn't get sharper resutls from the crop, you'd be surprised how little mm difference in focal length it takes where a much better lens won't be able to bring in more detail than a far crummier longer focal length lens

that said, sometimes the overall lost of contrast and purple fringing and washed out colors might mean you'd rather give away a little detail for nicer overall image quality

i'd rather take the 70-300L shot that seems like 284mm than the tamron that is full 300mm even though it might show a trace less detail and for sure over that from an old 75-300

but 50mm is a big difference and the 55-250 isn't that bad of a lens so I'm not sure, I could believe the 55-250 result being worth it over the 70-200L when distance limited, but i've never tried one so i can't really say (of course a 70-200+TC gives 280mm and I'm sure I'd take that over the 55-250)
 
Edit: OK, in case you still don't get it: I'm saying that my 55-250 at 250mm resolves more subject detail than the 70-200s at 200mm if shot from the same distance.
So what? It is a different AOV. Is your 55-250 better that the 24LII because it resolves more detail from the same distance? If you are desperate for FL, then yes, that helps. But if you need the 200mm AOV, your lens does not resolve more detail.
but his whole point what about when you DO need the extra reach
 
The better resolution of the L zoom gets you very close to the advantage of the larger FL - the difference is like 7-8% after you factor out the 50mm advantage of the EF-S.
OK, so you agree.
Yes, I did not get the context. I should not have replied to your post.
But, how did you come up with your numbers?

If I use the PZ MTF numbers: 55-250 at 250mm is 2200 (peak at f/8), 70-200s at 200 is about 2500 (peak at f/4 or f/5.6). The FL of the 250 is 1.25 times longer but the MTF is only 1.14 times lower. Thus, advantage expected for the 250mm.
If you divide them, you get about 9% advantage. When you crop the 200mm to a 250mm one, you are leaving 200/250 of the image, i.e., 80%. So it makes sense to compute the resulting resolution as 80% of 2500 = 2000, which is about 9% lower. I used the DXO numbers that gave me a slightly different number.
Please try to read the context of a post before responding.
Yes, guilty as charged. :(
 

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