Would P&S cameras give better IQ with 8-10 MP?

You'll only get 8.4 MP of useful resolution out of a letter sized print. Capturing more just to throw the extra away is a pointless task for the P&S user. And you're showing huge enlargements in 100% crop mode on a computer screen - things that won't be seen at all in a letter sized print at proper viewing distance (arm's length).
There's a good reason why people who measure resolution don't measure it in MP - there is a lot more to it than just how many spots there are, that just defines the sample (spatial) frequency. the next thing that you need to know is the 'frequency response' - how well different size ofeatures get rendered. The fact is, that a higher MP sensor gives a better frequency response - renders small objects with higher contrast, than does a lower MP sensor. As my example clearly showed, you can see the difference between a 10MP and 15MP sensor even at 6.7MP.
Yes, assuming that the 15mp sensor actually captured more (real) detail to start with, but that's not necessarily the case. 5.6x crop (1/2.3") compacts often have lenses that's about f/5.6 (f/32 equivalent) 'wide open' at the long end, meaning that the resolution is heavily limited by diffraction. I wouldn't mind having a 20mp compact, but it would only make sense if its lens is good and 'fast' enough to take advantage of the high MP count, otherwise the sensor would just resolve more 'noise detail'.
P.S. - According to DPR's test of the 100L macro on the 21mp 5DII, then the resolution at f/32 is about 1000 lw/ph. So, could we say that at f/32 the 5DII, with one of the very best lenses available, only captures 1.5mp (1500x1000) 'worth of detail'?
 
As my example clearly showed, you can see the difference between a 10MP and 15MP sensor even at 6.7MP.
--
What your example showed is that the 40D image was not focussed on the lettering 'Mas Portell' on the bottle, whereas on the 50D it was. Noise is about the same. If one wants to compare resolution one should be sure that the test is for resolution and that both cameras' focus is controlled to be as equal as possible, not something that IR does in this particular test shot.

--
emil
--



http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/
 
More MP never means worse image quality, but 1/2.3" P&S sensors seem to be at the point where more MP isn't really providing more detail. From tests on here and other sites, you can see that a 14MP 1/2.3" sensor barely outresolves the 7.1MP generation of 2007, if at all. The limiting factor here is the format, not the # of megapixels.
It is not very fair to compare different generation sensors.

For example, in these crops is clearly visible significant noise diffrence between one generation, almost identical 3MP and 4MP cameras announced simultaneously.
4MP same size sensor is much more noisier than 3MP.

Canon A510 (3MP) ISO 400





Canon A520 (4MP) ISO 400



 
You'll only get 8.4 MP of useful resolution out of a letter sized print. Capturing more just to throw the extra away is a pointless task for the P&S user. And you're showing huge enlargements in 100% crop mode on a computer screen - things that won't be seen at all in a letter sized print at proper viewing distance (arm's length).
There's a good reason why people who measure resolution don't measure it in MP - there is a lot more to it than just how many spots there are, that just defines the sample (spatial) frequency. the next thing that you need to know is the 'frequency response' - how well different size ofeatures get rendered. The fact is, that a higher MP sensor gives a better frequency response - renders small objects with higher contrast, than does a lower MP sensor. As my example clearly showed, you can see the difference between a 10MP and 15MP sensor even at 6.7MP.
Yes, assuming that the 15mp sensor actually captured more (real) detail to start with, but that's not necessarily the case. 5.6x crop (1/2.3") compacts often have lenses that's about f/5.6 (f/32 equivalent) 'wide open' at the long end, meaning that the resolution is heavily limited by diffraction. I wouldn't mind having a 20mp compact, but it would only make sense if its lens is good and 'fast' enough to take advantage of the high MP count, otherwise the sensor would just resolve more 'noise detail'.
P.S. - According to DPR's test of the 100L macro on the 21mp 5DII, then the resolution at f/32 is about 1000 lw/ph. So, could we say that at f/32 the 5DII, with one of the very best lenses available, only captures 1.5mp (1500x1000) 'worth of detail'?
Hmm.. maybe 1.5mp 'worth of detail' is a bit low, because it's based on DPR's MTF-50 resolution figures, so if looking at DxO's MTF-20 figures instead (34 lp/mm in 'limiting resolution profiles'), then we get 2448 x 1632 = 4mp 'worth of detail' (or 'area resolution'), and that's probably a more fair/reasonable figure.
 
As my example clearly showed, you can see the difference between a 10MP and 15MP sensor even at 6.7MP.
--
What your example showed is that the 40D image was not focussed on the lettering 'Mas Portell' on the bottle, whereas on the 50D it was. Noise is about the same. If one wants to compare resolution one should be sure that the test is for resolution and that both cameras' focus is controlled to be as equal as possible, not something that IR does in this particular test shot.
Possibly, perhaps I should redo it with another set of shots. If does seem that many of the review sites do not control their tests well enough to draw valid conclusions. The principle, however, holds true.
--
Bob
 
I have started with a .18MP P&S - enough said (Chinon ES-1000):



The first camera that did useful work had 1.3 MP (Olympus C-1400L):



The first camera that permitted some picture manipulation had 4 MP (Olympus D40):



The most versatile camera I own now has 10MP (Olympus SP-570UZ):



But for maximum resolution with electronic faultfinding I use my 14MP P&S (Olympus Stylus 9010):



To answer your question - I never yet owned a camera that had too much resolution, too much zoom or too small a sensor. I am looking at a 24x zoom P&S with 16MP.

8 to 10MP has proved useful in my hands. 12MP was a small step back (slightly more noise). The 14MP sensor matches the 10MP sensor for noise at pixel level, and it does produce better resolution at the same ISO.

Henry

--



Henry Falkner - SP-570UZ, Stylus 9010, Stylus 7020, D-490Z
http://www.pbase.com/hfalkner
 
My experience is that real world detail of a more realistic type - low contrast areas with more random textures ( less regular ) - do not yield more detail as you increase the pixel count. Or at any rate, nothing like the headline figures would suggest.
Let's test that, using raw and the same raw processor to remove that variable.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong11/page14.asp

Sorry, 14MP beat 10MP easily in resolution in those samples as well.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
I am just wondering if this is really the case, due to the sensor size being the same so they could have greater pixel size. Also 8-10 mp is enough to fill a standard 8.5x11 sheet of paper which is what most compact users i would guess print on with their home deskjet printers.

So is this correct? Would fewer MP on the same size sensor offer better IQ? Would the difference mostly be better high iso performance? Would it be noticeable? I know why they sell high MP cameras, because most people don't know any better, but I'd think at least one company would try to distinguish itself with better IQ if it could be gained with fewer MP.
There has never been a P&S camera with RAW, where the case was that there was any benefit to high-ISO only. IOW, ALL P&S cameras, as far as we know, at the RAW level, perform as well under-exposing base ISO to get high ISOs as actually using high ISO settings, or even better in some cameras. So, there is no such thing as high-ISO vs low-ISO tradeoffs in existing P&S cameras. They exist only in some CMOS DSLRs with huge pixels. The Nikon D3s is the most extreme example; it (alone) has the best high-ISO noise performance per unit of sensor area of any commercial digital camera at high ISO, but is far inferior to a P&S per unit of sensor area at low ISOs. All the second-place DSLRs for high-ISO noise perform no better per unit of sensor area than the best recent P&S compacts, so, taking all these things into account, it would seem that P&S cameras would need to drop to a fraction of a MP to take advantage of any better existing high-ISO technology. A VGA-resolution compact might therefore have 1/2 to one stop less read noise (but no change in photon shot noise).

--
John

 
I think so.

The P&S sensor are essentially diffraction limited after about 8 Mp so any gain in real resolution is non existent.
Limits are often nonsense, where someone just wants to make a name for themselves by declaring a limit, or, the meaning of "limit" is simply misinterpreted by many people. "Limits" often simply refer to nothing more than the limit of a factor's dominance ; not its effect.

Resolution does not suddenly hit a wall when the size of an airy disk is the same as the pixel spacing. First of all, the pixel spacing for red and green is double what the actual pixel spacing is. Secondly, blue has relatively low diffraction. Thirdly, diffraction lowers contrast at high frequencies; it does not limit maximum resolution at arbitrary contrasts. Fourthly, proper sampling requires about three pixels exclusive for a sharp transition, so you really need to optimally sample at a level where 100% pixel view is quite soft with modern monitor pixel pitches.

I can tell you from experience that the RAW blue channel in my 1.5-micron superzoom is clearly undersampled, and actually aliased, at f/8.
Note that charts are easier to process to gain apparent detail from, but in terms of detail in real images that don't lend themselves to resolution I don;t think you gain anything by increasing megapixels.
Huh??? So the optics are intelligent, and antagonistic to natural detail?
On the other hand larger sensor elements would enable a reduction in noise and this would also translate into an improvement in dynamic range. It would not be miraculous, but I'd prefer that than more useless pixels.
Other than the very temporary increase in DR for a given sensor size in the Sony 10MP sensor in the Canon G11 and other compacts, DR has actually been increasing along with pixel density. Sony's current 10.1MP 1/2.3" BSI sensors have more pixel DR than all Canon or Olympus DSLRs do, and more than the sensor in the G11. I don't know if there are any compacts using that technology and density in 1/1.7" sensors yet, but one of those should knock the G11 down a notch. I have a Casio superzoom with the 10.1MP 1/2.3" BSI, and doing some serious analysis of its RAW read noise, I find that most of it is superficial and created by the camera electronics, and not the sensor, and the DR of the sensor's photosites is actually about 4500:1, better than any of my Canon DSLRs (about 3000:1). The basic idea here is that when you downsample or bin RAW blackframe data to 25%, you would expect 25% the noise if the noise were pure, but higher if the noise was reduced artificially (some would then say the noise was "correlated"). In fact, what happens is that the noise is actually significantly less than 25% when I do this, meaning that a good part of the original noise is superficial "dithering" (even if unintentional), and this proves to be true when downsizing the images to web sizes. At web sizes, the Casio has more DR at base ISO than my Canon 5D2 FF camera, much of that due to the high low-frequency banded read noise in the 5D2.
We'd be better served by improvements to noise and to dynamic range, and also to focusing and handling than we would be more megapixels.
Except for a small number of retrograde motions, DR has been increasing along with pixel density. DR is determined mainly by read noise now. In the future, it may be limited more by photon noise, and then the game changes, because photon noise has a completely different set of rules than read noise. A 1/2.3" sensor will always have more noise than a full-frame sensor at ISO 100. At ISO 100,000, though, future 1/2.3" sensors could "wipe the floor", as they say, with most current DSLRs.

Perhaps you are confusing DR and highlight headroom? DR is the ratio of highest signal recordable to the lowest "usable" signal (by varying standards). Compact cameras have traditionally been more sensitive to light per unit of sensor area, and have had underrated base ISOs, already 'exposed to the right", leaving less headroom than the less-sensitive DSLRs. Many compacts with a base ISO of 100 would be 160 to 200 if they were rated as a DSLRs.

No argument on the better AF. The Casio superzoom I mentioned has the green/magenta CA which gets to be a bit much when the high-contrast subject is OOF.
However people keep going by headline figures and until the reviewers starts criticising this more actively we'll get nowhere.
Sometimes, just by pure luck, total ignorance is accidentally correct.

--
John

 
P.S. - According to DPR's test of the 100L macro on the 21mp 5DII, then the resolution at f/32 is about 1000 lw/ph. So, could we say that at f/32 the 5DII, with one of the very best lenses available, only captures 1.5mp (1500x1000) 'worth of detail'?
No. I don't think that anyone who has a clear picture of what sampling and resolution are would ever say something ridiculous like that. It takes about 6 pixels to properly sample a line pair. The real world does not line up for the pixels on your sensor.

--
John

 
More MP never means worse image quality, but 1/2.3" P&S sensors seem to be at the point where more MP isn't really providing more detail. From tests on here and other sites, you can see that a 14MP 1/2.3" sensor barely outresolves the 7.1MP generation of 2007, if at all. The limiting factor here is the format, not the # of megapixels.
What cameras have 1/2.3" sensors, 14MP, and RAW output? Do you know the difference between aggressive, pedestrian NR and lack of resolution? Lenses vary in quality as well.

There are far too many factors for you to make this statement.

My 10.1 MP 1/2.3" has aliasing in the RAW blue channel. Not exactly what you would call oversampling the lens.

Any format and lens that provides even medium sharpness at 100% pixel view can stand to have more pixels. The ideal pixel density would be soft at 100% at the lens' sweet spot.

--
John

 
P.S. - According to DPR's test of the 100L macro on the 21mp 5DII, then the resolution at f/32 is about 1000 lw/ph. So, could we say that at f/32 the 5DII, with one of the very best lenses available, only captures 1.5mp (1500x1000) 'worth of detail'?
No. I don't think that anyone who has a clear picture of what sampling and resolution are would ever say something ridiculous like that. It takes about 6 pixels to properly sample a line pair. The real world does not line up for the pixels on your sensor.
So, if it takes about 6 pixels to properly sample a line pair, then the 21mp (5616x3744) 5DII can only 'properly sample' 1872 x 1248 = 2.34mp 'worth of detail' (is that a MTF-50 or MTF-20 measure, or something else?). Does that mean that shooting at f/22 - f/32 actually is a good thing, because diffraction then takes care of at least the worst sampling artifacts?
 
So, if it takes about 6 pixels to properly sample a line pair, then the 21mp (5616x3744) 5DII can only 'properly sample' 1872 x 1248 = 2.34mp 'worth of detail' (is that a MTF-50 or MTF-20 measure, or something else?).
There is no such thing as "MP worth of detail", unless your detail is discrete artificial dots.
Does that mean that shooting at f/22 - f/32 actually is a good thing, because diffraction then takes care of at least the worst sampling artifacts?
It means that you will have little in the way of sampling artifacts. Nothing more and nothing less. You might like the image better with the shallow DOF and aliasing at f/4.

--
John

 
So, if it takes about 6 pixels to properly sample a line pair, then the 21mp (5616x3744) 5DII can only 'properly sample' 1872 x 1248 = 2.34mp 'worth of detail' (is that a MTF-50 or MTF-20 measure, or something else?).
There is no such thing as "MP worth of detail", unless your detail is discrete artificial dots.
MPs worth of detail = area resolution = lw/ph x lw/pw. It's just a slightly different way to present the resolution data (but which data, MTF-20 or MTF-50 or..?)
Does that mean that shooting at f/22 - f/32 actually is a good thing, because diffraction then takes care of at least the worst sampling artifacts?
It means that you will have little in the way of sampling artifacts. Nothing more and nothing less. You might like the image better with the shallow DOF and aliasing at f/4.
Probably so, and maybe I'd even prefer a camera without AA-filter.
 
P.S. - According to DPR's test of the 100L macro on the 21mp 5DII, then the resolution at f/32 is about 1000 lw/ph. So, could we say that at f/32 the 5DII, with one of the very best lenses available, only captures 1.5mp (1500x1000) 'worth of detail'?
No. I don't think that anyone who has a clear picture of what sampling and resolution are would ever say something ridiculous like that. It takes about 6 pixels to properly sample a line pair. The real world does not line up for the pixels on your sensor.
John, I have pointed out before that it does not take 6 samples per cycle to sample a waveform. The Nyquist rate is 2 samples per cycle and real world limitations on interpolation only increase this to about 2.25 samples per line pair cycle. This is the limit if the input is already band-limited as occurs at the diffraction cutoff; if it is necessary to low pass filter the input as with optical anti-aliasing then difficulties in implementing physical low pass filters can increase the amount of oversampling used in the design. A typical limit in that case would be 3 to 4 samples per cycle. The use of color filter arrays in cameras complicates this analysis but if each of the pixel colors are treated separately then individually they should meet the Nyquist criteria for their portion of the image.
 
More MP never means worse image quality, but 1/2.3" P&S sensors seem to be at the point where more MP isn't really providing more detail. From tests on here and other sites, you can see that a 14MP 1/2.3" sensor barely outresolves the 7.1MP generation of 2007, if at all. The limiting factor here is the format, not the # of megapixels.
What cameras have 1/2.3" sensors, 14MP, and RAW output? Do you know the difference between aggressive, pedestrian NR and lack of resolution? Lenses vary in quality as well.
I don't think there are any that offer RAW output in that format right now (correct me if I'm wrong), which means we have to live with whatever processing the mfr decides to use. As it happens, the results aren't too impressive, though the higher MP cams do provide more detail. My point was that the increase in detail is getting trivial and as the prices drop, I'm sure lens quality is also suffering. IMO, I don't think the person who buys a $129 compact is getting much better performance with 14MP than they would have with 8 or 10.
There are far too many factors for you to make this statement.
There are a lot of factors, but for practical purposes I'm making an observation of the final result. I know this is hard as well, since there is quite a big variation in the output of compacts using the same Sony sensor. However, the general trend is that there is very little progress in terms of detail resolved with the newer models.
Any format and lens that provides even medium sharpness at 100% pixel view can stand to have more pixels. The ideal pixel density would be soft at 100% at the lens' sweet spot.
I don't disagree with you in general, I know that there is plenty of room for more MP before we don't see an increase in detail. I'm just saying that the benefit of more MP for the compact formats is getting less tangible with every generation. There's only so much detail that can be pulled from such a tiny piece of silicone. This is also relevant here because compact users are much less likely to even care for extra detail; most viewing is done at 1000-2000 pixels on a screen or printing at 4x6.
--
-Scott
 
More MP never means worse image quality, but 1/2.3" P&S sensors seem to be at the point where more MP isn't really providing more detail. From tests on here and other sites, you can see that a 14MP 1/2.3" sensor barely outresolves the 7.1MP generation of 2007, if at all. The limiting factor here is the format, not the # of megapixels.
It is not very fair to compare different generation sensors.
No, it isn't.
For example, in these crops is clearly visible significant noise diffrence between one generation, almost identical 3MP and 4MP cameras announced simultaneously.
Of course, sensors of the same generation aren't necessarily just as efficient, either. For example, the 14 stops of DR from the Sony sensor in the D7000 vs the 11 stops of DR in the Canon sensor in the 60D.
4MP same size sensor is much more noisier than 3MP.

Canon A510 (3MP) ISO 400





Canon A520 (4MP) ISO 400



Looks to me more like a difference in in-camera processing. Here's the A520 pic redeux:



See how easy it is to leap to false conclusions?
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top