Mostly Lurking
Senior Member
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William Wilgus
William Wilgus
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SD1 at $6800 should be full frame
- Thread starter David Ahn
- Start date
It's more about value than price. If the SD1 had sit down at about 2.5 to 3 K street it would been a great value for the dollar. It would have held its own with the other cameras in that price range. Most others would have an advantage in features and high ISO performance - the SD1 would have held an edge in image quality at low ISO.
As the price goes up the value goes down. At 6800 bucks Sigma has put itself smack in the middle of cameras with equivalent IQ, better performance across the spectrum of lighting conditions and cameras with many more features and companies with better QC and support.
At 7 K the M9 is quite attractive and coupled with a 12 stop DR Kodak CCD, no AA filter and the worlds sharpest and fastest lenses, it is an very good value. Canon, Nikon and Sony are getting ready for a refresh which will bring 24 MP sensors into cameras in the 2.5 to 3 K range. The high end Canon, Nikon and Sony will be looking at maybe 30 MP sensors.
For at few bucks more than the SD1 you enter the medium format market with the Pentax 645D and the Mamiya digital 645 Af both starting out at about 9 to 10 K but I expect to see them come down.
Sigma priced the SD1 in a very tough neighborhood and as such the value for the dollar is not that high. I would have bought a SD1 at 2500. However, at 6800 I won't. I am planning on getting a M9 in the near future for that price. The Leica M is a great camera - you just through in over your shoulder and go.
Whoever made the decision at Sigma was delusional when he though a 1.5 crop sensor was in the same league as a FF sensor much less a medium format sensor. The price was set where the value of the investment was quite low.
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Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt
As the price goes up the value goes down. At 6800 bucks Sigma has put itself smack in the middle of cameras with equivalent IQ, better performance across the spectrum of lighting conditions and cameras with many more features and companies with better QC and support.
At 7 K the M9 is quite attractive and coupled with a 12 stop DR Kodak CCD, no AA filter and the worlds sharpest and fastest lenses, it is an very good value. Canon, Nikon and Sony are getting ready for a refresh which will bring 24 MP sensors into cameras in the 2.5 to 3 K range. The high end Canon, Nikon and Sony will be looking at maybe 30 MP sensors.
For at few bucks more than the SD1 you enter the medium format market with the Pentax 645D and the Mamiya digital 645 Af both starting out at about 9 to 10 K but I expect to see them come down.
Sigma priced the SD1 in a very tough neighborhood and as such the value for the dollar is not that high. I would have bought a SD1 at 2500. However, at 6800 I won't. I am planning on getting a M9 in the near future for that price. The Leica M is a great camera - you just through in over your shoulder and go.
Whoever made the decision at Sigma was delusional when he though a 1.5 crop sensor was in the same league as a FF sensor much less a medium format sensor. The price was set where the value of the investment was quite low.
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Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt
And as such, it's a subjective judgement. Value is never going to be the same for anyone or indeed, the same person at different points in their life, career or ongoing education.
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GeekGoth, Writer
http://www.geextreme.com/
P30/Nikon/Sigma/Olympus/Fuji
Music, cars (Citroën mostly), computing, media
stevielee
Senior Member
The objective fact is that no one (except for the highly delusional Yakami himself) thinks, believes, or agrees that the SD1 is worth anything more than a couple thousand dollars at best. Arbitrarily inflating the price of a serviceable, but rather middle-of-the-road APS-C DSLR in 2011 has nothing to do with anything of actual "value", and everything to do with an out-of-touch and delusional CEO who apparently suffers from extreme and insular arrogance, as well as a monumental disregard for his extremely loyal and dedicated customers who have been (up until now) faithfully purchasing -- and putting up with -- his companies half-baked, stripped down DSLR's: mainly because of the unique and promising sensor technology that is unfortunately entombed within them.
If there is anything of tangible "value" concerning the SD1, it is only because of the sensor within it that was developed by another company (Foveon) - which has now been unfortunately acquired by a company that has never had any real aptitude, or wherewithal at producing sophisticated image capturing equipment.
It's always been about the sensor inside any and all of Sigma's camera attempts up until now -- that anyone still gives a hoot about them as a serious DSLR player on the market. And though Sigma may still be seen by some as Foveon's "white knight" savior -- because of their initial willingness to support and encase the technology within their crude, but minimally functional outer camera bodies -- the SD1 -- for the vast majority of even the Foveon faithful -- could very well end up being the Black Swan DSLR for Foveon as a viable technology going forward -- especially in the same time and arena where comparatively "valued" flagship DSLR's clean the metaphorical clock of the SD1 in almost every measurable, substantive way -- with the sole, arguable exception of it possibly having a smidgeon of more overall absolute resolution. And at 7K, resolution by it's lonesome self, will never justify, sustain, or retain it's "value" in the face of what is already widely available by all of the other bona-fide DSLR companies (ones that have built up extensive optical, professional and technological support and know-how through many decades of experience). And as I've stated on here in these forums before, the SD1 will not even be though of, or mentioned, by the end of this year when the big three release DSLR's that will inevitably set new high water marks for what authentic flagship digital imaging equipment can do and offer in value-to-performance in 2011/12 and beyond.
David Ahn
Member
Agreed. Hence my suggestion to increase the value (FF, better write speed, etc.) or decrease the price, or both in two separate products.
The 5D Mk II, Canon's "midrange" pro model, went from 12 to 21 MP, a 75% increase. I would guess their next increase should take it to the 28-32MP range to be a significant upgrade. (A 75% increase from 21.1 would be 37 MP).
Sony's flagship a900 is roughly the same price as the 5D Mk II and already FF and 24.6 MP. It's mindboggling that Sigma would even dream of releasing a camera at 3 times the price of Sony's FLAGSHIP.
I am revising my original suggestion of a FF version at $6800 down to $2500-3000, and the current crop SD1 at $1500. I can't imagine more than a tiny fraction of pro photographers choosing the hypothetical FF "flagship" Sigma body at $6800 (over the 1Ds Mk IV). But they could make a significant dent in the 5D Mk III's market at its price point. And the current crop SD1 I would definitely buy at $1500, $2000 max.
Incidentally, Sigma's sharpness advantage disappears when you remove the antialiasing filter: witness the 18MP Leica M9's sharpness advantage over the "46" MP SD1 due to its absence of the AA filter. Of course there's the moire problem, but you can add AA filtering later to areas containing repeating patterns. It would be awesome if RAW processing software could remove the AA filtering. It would ALSO be awesome if you could come up with an algorithm to extract luminance data from the R and B filtered pixels and not just from the G pixels. With all the math and physics gurus out there, why can't this be done? And while we're asking theoretical questions, why are there no 3-CMOS sensors in DSLRs?
David Ahn
Member
I agree, partially... How a person rates the dollar value of a given object is subjective. But I also partially disagree. You can add objective value to things such as better resolution, faster write speeds, better tech support, etc., which will increase the dollar value in MOST persons' estimations (if they value the improved parameters).
This is always the marketing conundrum. The market dictates the price at which transactions happen. But people aren't homogeneous, they're different, and they fall along a bell curve distribution of how much a product is worth to them. You want to set the price at a low enough point where the higher volume sold more than offsets the loss per unit versus a higher price. At $6800 they may sell 1000 units worldwide (wild estimate) for $6.8M in revenue, which won't cover their R&D costs. At $2000 they may sell 100,000 units for $200M in revenue, netting them a handy profit.
Even among the Sigma apologists, I hear "stop whining," but I don't hear "I've bought one." The proof is in the pudding. So put your money where your mouth is!
Mostly Lurking
Senior Member
that have purchased one . . . and myself, who would if I could.
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William Wilgus
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William Wilgus
Mostly Lurking
Senior Member
Why? It is purely opinion . One can test resolution, etc. but there is no way to objectively assign a value of any of such attributes for any individual.
By the way, since you declined to by an SD-1 it's easy for you to challenge others to put their money where their mouth is. I assure you that if I had the money to buy and SD-1 I would do so.
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William Wilgus
By the way, since you declined to by an SD-1 it's easy for you to challenge others to put their money where their mouth is. I assure you that if I had the money to buy and SD-1 I would do so.
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William Wilgus
Mostly Lurking
Senior Member
out of both sides of your mouth . . . at least regarding moire, if nothing else. I'm tired of your harping about the SD-1's price. It is what it is, and there's nothing you (or I) can do about it. Stop beating a dead horse.
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William Wilgus
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William Wilgus
ToasterFlyer
Senior Member
ToasterFlyer
Senior Member
mm.. honestly I'm sure there are some here that could afford it.. but the serious lack of features vs. da high price..it really is just not worth it. I don't care how you slice the detailed output of the SD1, I want more for my money. Im sure I am not alone in this. Sigma has now set the bar for every other cam they release to be extremely overpriced.
I have seen nothing all that was so special about an SD1 image vs an SD15 image.. excepted for the obvious larger file size..and big wooptiedooo..
Rich
ny
I have seen nothing all that was so special about an SD1 image vs an SD15 image.. excepted for the obvious larger file size..and big wooptiedooo..
Rich
ny
stevielee
Senior Member
Ya...but you can't, can you? And why is that? Simple! It's because it is too over-valued (expensive) for your budget. You could probably afford $6800, or more for items that you do want and need in your everyday life (car, travel/vacation, insurance,mortgage payments..etc). But you can't pay nearly $7,000 for a teeny-tiny 23mm sensor that's wrapped in a out-of-date circa 2007 magnesium alloy body. And no one else with a modicum of basic common sense and financial responsibility is going to either. The majority have very clearly, and across the board spoken on Sigma's SD1 Black Swan. The verdict: it's too damned expensive and terminally over-valued - period!
And yes, I did personally ask everybody about their opinions of whether the SD1 was indeed hugely over-priced by a lunatic, and everybody emphatically agrees that it most certianly was -- with the usual exception of a handful of those dwindling money-to-burn idiots that unfortunately still possess the obscene ability to squander large cashes of valuable and scarce resources at the drop of every Yakami over-priced whim - when for 95% of their fellow species, the very same 7K is the difference between keeping their non-photographic equipment heads barely above water or sinking into chapter 13.
Once again: here is Yakami's own arrogant let them eat cake statement on trying to gouge his loyal sigma customers with his personal SD1 vanity project:
"Sorry. We tried our best, but could not implement the price range that we had targeted."
We being: HE ALONE arbitrarily decided a 2-2.5K SLR was worth 3-4x that much. .
AND:
"I know the responses from our loyal customers. SD1 price is solely due to my lack of capability, but the camera is really great.:
If this highly delusion man's company was publicly traded and had to answer to his shareholders (if not his loyal customers), his head would have been promptly put on a platter by popular investor/consumer demand and served up as an example of how not to run a company into the ground for the sake of ones just man's inexplicable lack of fundamental economic sanity.
The SD1 WILL be discontinued and/or evolved/revolved back into an SD16(?) like DSLR for 2-2.5K by this time next year. On this I am certain of. Everybody told me so
The Ford Focus is a very nice car I am sure. It is quite a bit less expensive than a BMW 3 model. However, the BMW will get a quarter of a million miles. The BMW comes with better support. The BMW is designed to go a 100 MPH on the autobahn - although not many do. The BMW is solid - the Ford sounds a little tinny when you slam the door hard. The BMW seats are leather - the Focus's seats are vinyl.
Sure the Focus at it's price is a good value. The BMW at it's price is a good value. However, the Focus at a BMW price is a very poor value. Would some people buy it - I am sure some would for what ever reason. However, the SD1 was thrown into the mix with much higher end products with it's pricing. That has nothing to do with age or subjective judgement.
We don't know if the reports on the pricing are or not true but if they are the SD1 was a marketing fiasco.
Would I buy a Ford Focus at BMW prices - nope. Would I buy a BMW for the value - I have owned two since 1985. The first one lasted until 1999 when I sold it with 275 K miles still in good shape. The second one I got in 2006 after I saw what I was mission and it is sitting in my drive way as I speak. Would I buy another one - in 10 years when this one wears out.
Would I buy a SD1 - not at the price of an M9, and the top end of the Nikon and Canon lines and close to the price of a Pentax 645D.
Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt
Sure the Focus at it's price is a good value. The BMW at it's price is a good value. However, the Focus at a BMW price is a very poor value. Would some people buy it - I am sure some would for what ever reason. However, the SD1 was thrown into the mix with much higher end products with it's pricing. That has nothing to do with age or subjective judgement.
We don't know if the reports on the pricing are or not true but if they are the SD1 was a marketing fiasco.
Would I buy a Ford Focus at BMW prices - nope. Would I buy a BMW for the value - I have owned two since 1985. The first one lasted until 1999 when I sold it with 275 K miles still in good shape. The second one I got in 2006 after I saw what I was mission and it is sitting in my drive way as I speak. Would I buy another one - in 10 years when this one wears out.
Would I buy a SD1 - not at the price of an M9, and the top end of the Nikon and Canon lines and close to the price of a Pentax 645D.
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Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt
David Ahn
Member
The features, capabilities, specifications, and the cost to develop and produce a product give it INTRINSIC, OBJECTIVE, value. The extrinsic value is what we AGREE to pay, the subjective part. Everyone but you agrees that the intrinsic value is lacking.
I AM putting my money where my mouth is along with everyone else. This is what a "NO" vote looks like with wallet votes. If you REALLY felt it was worth $6800 (assuming you value photography, which you must if you're in this forum), you would buy it by adjusting your spending priorities.
David Ahn
Member
If it ain't the pot calling the teacup black... you SAY it's worth $6800 but you don't believe it strongly enough to actually BUY it. (You can sell your old gear, rearrange your spending priorities, etc. if you TRULY believed in it.)
I think it's time YOU stopped beating the cute little "SD1 is worth $6800" pony. It too is long dead, beat to death by only you and Yamaki-san.
Ford RS200
Vauxhall/Opel Astra OPC (I think that's what it was, the touring car version with gullwing doors)
Austin-Rover Metro 6R4
Renault 5 Gordini Turbo 2
Citroen BX4TC
You get the picture. Even, dare I say it, the AMG E500 "Hammer".
To me, the SD1 is more like a BMW 3-series with a Mercedes M119 32v V8 under the hood.
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GeekGoth, Writer
http://www.geextreme.com/
P30/Nikon/Sigma/Olympus/Fuji
Music, cars (Citroën mostly), computing, media
And the price of a Ferrari. Would I pay Ferrari prices for a BMW - no way, ho how, no time.
Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt
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Truman
http://www.pbase.com/tprevatt
Mostly Lurking
Senior Member
It is NOT that I consider the SD-1 to be over-priced, or not worth the money. I simply can't afford one at the present time. My total income is USD $1,099.00 per month. I have about $800.00 in my checking account and no other assets. I have $3,000.00 on my credit card---which will take me at least 3 months to pay off. Early this year a bought an SD-15 and a 50--500 Bigma. Then I bought a new air conditioner for $1,500, a lab instrument for $500, and a few other things. Still think everyone who would like to have one can afford it?
But further, were I able to afford one now, I wouldn't buy one simply because not all the 'bugs' have been worked out yet---the price has nothing to do with that.
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William Wilgus
But further, were I able to afford one now, I wouldn't buy one simply because not all the 'bugs' have been worked out yet---the price has nothing to do with that.
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William Wilgus
Mostly Lurking
Senior Member
English Language.
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William Wilgus
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William Wilgus
Mostly Lurking
Senior Member
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=39077557
"I simply can't afford one at the present time. My total income is USD $1,099.00 per month. I have about $800.00 in my checking account and no other assets. I have $3,000.00 on my credit card---which will take me at least 3 months to pay off. Early this year a bought an SD-15 and a 50--500 Bigma. Then I bought a new air conditioner for $1,500, a lab instrument for $500, and a few other things. Still think everyone who would like to have one can afford it?"
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William Wilgus
"I simply can't afford one at the present time. My total income is USD $1,099.00 per month. I have about $800.00 in my checking account and no other assets. I have $3,000.00 on my credit card---which will take me at least 3 months to pay off. Early this year a bought an SD-15 and a 50--500 Bigma. Then I bought a new air conditioner for $1,500, a lab instrument for $500, and a few other things. Still think everyone who would like to have one can afford it?"
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William Wilgus
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