OFFICIAL : Ricoh announces GXR MOUNT A12

Thanks for sharing your methodology Godfrey. You have quite a collection of optical finders. The Leitz is certainly good looking and dresses well. I have been thinking about buying it's Voigtlander cousin listed on eBay. Unfortunately the lenses I have bought that have come with their own optical viewfinders are rendered redundant by the aps-c sensor multiplier value. But I might be able to mix and match with other lenses perhaps.

However the evf automatically compensates for whatever lens is fitted. For whatever it's disadvantages it must make more economic sense the more primes that are owned.

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Tom Caldwell

Actually Japanese companies are known for taking a loss on specific products for very long stretches, sometimes for years continuously.

The Ricoh camera division has taken a loss for the last twelve quarters continuously. Does that tell you something about their marketing/pricing policies?
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Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user

Tom Caldwell said:

They might make 3,000 units per month for 3-6 months into stock.

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I wonder how many bodies and EVFs they will be making per month - 1 per 2 A12-Ms ?

As this module starts selling - assuming good reviews and user reports, there may be shortages of EVFs, bodies and batteries ( given a fair proportion of new GXR owners ).

I'm new to the GXR so decided to order a P10 kit and EVF now while it's in stock and the P10 is only a $130 uplift over the body price.

Maybe it's over reacting, but it will give me something to play with while waiting and a 300mm lens will be more useful than a ZM85 for air shows and birds.

( Soliloquy : Will there will be a GRD-IV this year ? ... no stop spending ... that GRD-III is just fine )

Pangloss said:

Actually Japanese companies are known for taking a loss on specific products for very long stretches, sometimes for years continuously.

The Ricoh camera division has taken a loss for the last twelve quarters continuously. Does that tell you something about their marketing/pricing policies?

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I am not familiar with Japanese pricing strategies, but in such a dynamic marked as digital cameras are, I fail to see the purpose of pricing your products so low that you make constant loss over 3 years - that is longer than lifetime of many products and today it is very hard to make the customers to come back after their purchase over such a long period of time. As an example - if Ricoh would sell their GRDIII with a loss to get more customers in that segment - there is high chance that they will not get the GRDIV as other producers may introduce new products.

I am just wondering whether the loss Ricoh had made in past 3 years has different reasons than just knowingly underpricing their products while following some particular strategy. That is always a very dangerous game to play.

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Matus

I don't care much about the price regards Ricoh's profitability. That's their business not mine. I'm a photographer, not a marketing subsidiary of Ricoh Inc.

What I care about is that the GXR body plus M camera unit is the least expensive dedicated M-bayonet camera on the market and I like the control ergonomics and features more than anything else currently available. I prefer working with high quality lenses that I control manually and precisely for several reasons. If the quality the GXR-M produces matches what I obtain with the other A12 camera units, it wil be more than satisfactory for my work.

Once I obtain a camera that does the job I want satisfactorily, I usually don't bother looking at much else until I find I need some other capability. It's a waste of money and energy to put so much of your attention into always wishing for and figuring out the next best thing rather than exploiting what you already have to do your photography.

Remember, 99% of all cameras are better than 98% of all photographers.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

slncezgsi said:

Pangloss said:

Actually Japanese companies are known for taking a loss on specific products for very long stretches, sometimes for years continuously.

The Ricoh camera division has taken a loss for the last twelve quarters continuously. Does that tell you something about their marketing/pricing policies?

Click to expand...

I am not familiar with Japanese pricing strategies, but in such a dynamic marked as digital cameras are, I fail to see the purpose of pricing your products so low that you make constant loss over 3 years - that is longer than lifetime of many products and today it is very hard to make the customers to come back after their purchase over such a long period of time. As an example - if Ricoh would sell their GRDIII with a loss to get more customers in that segment - there is high chance that they will not get the GRDIV as other producers may introduce new products.

I am just wondering whether the loss Ricoh had made in past 3 years has different reasons than just knowingly underpricing their products while following some particular strategy. That is always a very dangerous game to play.

--
Matus

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Businesses do not lose money on purpose, they do not price products at a lose, they are profit oriented even if it means selling less to make more profit. Where the loses are coming from I have no idea unless the corporation is taking money out of the camera division for use elsewhere, not a likely thing.

--
Jim King - Retired Colormonger - Suburban Detroit, Michigan, USA; GMT -4h (EDT)
Pentaxian for over 50 years.





* * * * *
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

• Sir Winston Churchill

* * * * *
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.

• Albert Einstein

I can get a K5 body for about 20% more, then have access to Pentax primes, which are way cheaper than Leica.

However, the early adopters will pay for the discounts for those who wait.

sedentary_male said:

US$649 + body that can be ordered for US$349.99 from popflash. All up, under US$1000.

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the M module looks wonderful, great specs and implementations!

I can't wait to see more samples, very curious how the optimization of the sensor with the microlens layout and the omission of an AA filer will play out

great looking manual focus modes

great the individual lens settings, recording lens name, aperture and shutter speed in the EXIFs and the possibility to define individual shutter speed limits with auto ISO for any particular lens.

--
http://flickr.com/photos/kuuan/
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/andreasgriesmayr
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=kuuan

snake_b said:

I can get a K5 body for about 20% more, then have access to Pentax primes, which are way cheaper than Leica.

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Is that so? I can buy a 4x5 large format camera for about 20% less than the Ricoh, and have access to Schneider primes, which are way cheaper than Leica.

Prog.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oren_b

I guess that snazzy electronic viewfinder isn't something you factored in to compete with the K5 purely on a features basis. Then that 20% closes really fast. Like becomes non-existent.

Hey, I like Ricoh, but being realistic, it's not the best buy out there with the M-module.

Prognathous said:

snake_b said:

I can get a K5 body for about 20% more, then have access to Pentax primes, which are way cheaper than Leica.

Click to expand...

Is that so? I can buy a 4x5 large format camera for about 20% less than the Ricoh, and have access to Schneider primes, which are way cheaper than Leica.

Prog.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oren_b

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Since photography is a deep passion, and I appreciate using well designed tools, I'm rarely looking for the best buy in my photography equipment. It's all about what works best for what I want to do.

I don't believe that anyone would expect a niche product, like the GXR Mount unit, in a niche camera system to be a best buy.

Tom Caldwell said:

Thanks for sharing your methodology Godfrey. You have quite a collection of optical finders. The Leitz is certainly good looking and dresses well. I have been thinking about buying it's Voigtlander cousin listed on eBay. Unfortunately the lenses I have bought that have come with their own optical viewfinders are rendered redundant by the aps-c sensor multiplier value. But I might be able to mix and match with other lenses perhaps.

Click to expand...

Well, I have four of them. Two I had in my equipment drawer from ages past when I used them with other cameras. I bought the Ricoh GV-2 and Leitz 5.0cm Brightline specifically for the GXR. Since I rarely tend to carry more than one or two lenses at a time, it's no big burden to carry they optical viewfinder that matches what I'm carrying.

Tom Caldwell said:

However the evf automatically compensates for whatever lens is fitted. For whatever it's disadvantages it must make more economic sense the more primes that are owned.

Click to expand...

Of course the EVF exactly replicates the LCD display and shows precisely what the lens is seeing. It turns the GXR into a diminutive eye-level TTL camera with tremendous precision.

Optical viewfinders are more "approximate" in nature and lead to a different kind of thinking about the process of framing a photograph, one which understands and works with a mental approximation of what the lens is actually imaging on the sensor. Since most of my work happens with only a couple of different focal length lenses, and generally speaking I tend to use just one for very long periods of time without swapping lenses willy-nilly, I find this approximation does an excellent job of helping me point the lens in the right direction while I pre-visualize what a particular lens will see. I often find it best to turn off the LCD once I have my basic exposure and focus settings dialed in as the practice of constantly "chimping" for every exposure slows me down and distracts me from observing the subject at hand.

The practice of making photographs can be approached in a diversity of ways. What works best for me in one circumstance might not be best in others ... what works for others in the same circumstances might not be my preference either. I can only report on what works for me, and point to the photos it produces as evidence of why I like doing things the way I do.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

slappo said:

I would like to have Focus Assist available on all Camera Units.
Do you think it will be available for all or some of the legacy units ?

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Legacy? I presume you mean the A12 50 and 28 mm EFL camera units, as well as the S10 and P10 zoom camera units.

I'd like to have these new manual focusing tools available on both the existing A12 camera units too. But whether they can be or will be retrofitted as a firmware update only Ricoh can say .. I don't like to speculate on that.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

snake_b said:

I guess that snazzy electronic viewfinder isn't something you factored in to compete with the K5 purely on a features basis. Then that 20% closes really fast. Like becomes non-existent.

Click to expand...

Where did I say anything about the electronic viewfinder?

Prog.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oren_b

Pangloss said:

Actually Japanese companies are known for taking a loss on specific products for very long stretches, sometimes for years continuously.

The Ricoh camera division has taken a loss for the last twelve quarters continuously. Does that tell you something about their marketing/pricing policies?
--
Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user

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Yes, it is unsustainable, but if the copier division stopped making and selling lenses to the camera division then the copier division might make a loss as well.

Maybe they just bought market share by buying Pentax?

However there are many business models. If Ricoh for example decided to write off production as when made and then warehoused nul value stock then they might have quite a few zillion yen locked up in warehoused stock. As long as they had friendly bankers the stock might just be like vignerons wine stock laid away to mature.

Before "obsolescence" is snorted consider the stock is being locked away at paid cost and profit only being recognised when the initial make cost has been realised. This is ultra conservative accounting and qute possible. Ricoh makes products that are niche and not easily obsoleted by fashion. I would imagine that the concept of the M mount module will just be as fresh five years from now. Obsoleted old manual lenses will not need technical or fashion accessory advances and will be "fresh" for years to come. That is why a lot of care today will be well founded as the years progress.

Funding the Pentax purchase cannot have unduly worried their bankers.

And they have stocks of the GXR body and other modules as well, GRDIII as well. Probably quite a lot in the wine cellar.

--
Tom Caldwell

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Sorry to edit so much of your post, but you have aptly summarized it in the last phrase:
...

Tom Caldwell said:

And they have stocks of the GXR body and other modules as well, GRDIII as well. Probably quite a lot in the wine cellar.

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Really, Tom, you should start a thread in the Open Forum here at dpreview about how digital cameras (unsold stock at the manufacturer) age - and consequently keep or increase in value - just like (French? Australian?) wine. It could be a lot of fun.
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Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user

slncezgsi said:

Guys, just a short word on the pricing. Is it not that relevant what individuals think - what matters is how the bulk of possible customers react to the product and how much they are willing to pay for it. The companies do their best to OPTIMIZE THE PROFIT. That is what keeps them staying in business. It does NOT MATTER how much it costs to produce something, all what matters is for how much you can sell it. Period.

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Precisely. A product - any product really - is introduced at the highest price the seller thinks it can sell in reasonable quantity. When sales start to slow, the price is dropped, and the next lower price-point of customers is harvested. Price is then cut and the next level is harvested. And so forth. In this way they get back their R&D money the quickest while also selling the most units at the highest average price.
--
Art is far superior to "artsy".

Hi,

Midwest said:

Precisely. A product - any product really - is introduced at the highest price the seller thinks it can sell in reasonable quantity. ...

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Sorry, but things are a little bit more complicated than you seem to think: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pricing_strategies

I believe the M-mount module is being sold below cost - and even so, it won't sell beyond the minuscule market niche that it is targeted at. Consequently, Ricoh will probably never recoup the R&D costs on this module.
I just hope they don't scrap the entire GXR product line because of this.

BTW the estimated retail price for the GXR M-mount in Japan is ¥ 65,000 (Source: DC.Watch). At the present exchange rate that is more than 830 USD. Again, there is no logic in selling it abroad (e.g. in the US) for 20% less than they are going to sell it in Japan.
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Andrew
Panasonic LX3, Ricoh GXR w/ A12 28&50mm user

Nonsense. Your antipathy for this camera unit is ridiculous. I'm sure Ricoh has done their homework and is offering it at a sensible price point.

I mean, if your highly vaunted NEX 7 is going to sell at $1200 with a lens, and a NEX 5 sells at $699 with a lens, surely Ricoh can sell the A12 Camera Mount for $650 sans lens at a profit.

Give it up.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com