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what if Sigma discontinues the SD1 after a few months

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TRIODEROB said:
why wait for a situtation where the new SD16 could potentially have better image quality
than their current and in production flagship model ?
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First, I don't see Sigma discontinuing the SD1 anytime soon. I don't expect to see a new DSLR from Sigma for at least 4 years. They should bring out a DPx model with interchangeable lenses because Sigma is a lens company first. This is all science fiction so I guess it is ok to speculate.

I'm not sure how important it is to the Sigma CEO to compete with the big boys Canon and Nikon. I don't think this sort of competition is important to them.

My guess is Sigma will eventually bring out an advanced version of the SD1 (maybe full-frame) and then start discounting the original SD1. This might happen in 4 years or so. If the Foveon division upgrades the sensor without making it bigger, we might see a SD1 V2 or something like it in a couple years (the only difference would be an evolutionary improvement in the sensor, dropped into the existing body).

Sigma seems to be doing well with their lens sales. That keeps the pressure off a small camera division that pushed really hard to bring out the SD15 and the SD1.

They will keep an APSC sized sensor in their product line as a platform for their DC lenses, and for the foreseeable future the SD15 fills that slot at the low end. I don't think there is any point in waiting for a SD16. The SD1 will fill the APSC slot after Sigma comes out with the successor to the SD1, if ever. At that point the street price will be 3x the SD15 price, and the SD15 will be discontinued. Just my uninformed opinion, and like most people I know nothing about any of this.
--
Tom Schum
 
My prediction is that we'll know more at CES/PMA in January.... re future of SD1, possibility of that sensor in a DPx or compact type body, and most important for many of us, the upgrade path from the SD14/15. Announcement(s) at CES/PMA; prototype(s) at Photokina.

Further prediction, unfortunately until at least January, the SD1 stays at an unrealistically high price.
Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)
 
gbainbridge said:
sirkhann said:
Yes. You may have production line that makes 10'000 in one pass but if your yield is 5%, your pricing is doomed
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That 10,000 minimum production run was from the actual chip manufacturer, so would account for the yield. I doubt that any manufacturer would take it on if the yield were that low, but if so it would be up to them to make 2 million chips to get 10,000 good ones.
Click to expand...
Part of the problem with analysis of this issue is that a nornal camera company would contract for 10K chips and the foundry would set the price based on an expected yield so the camera company would end up with 10k chips. But the Foveon/Sigma chip is far from normal and there may have been a different contract, or there may have been a modified contract if the yield turned out to be 5%; or pigs may be flying, who knows.

The sd15 was basically an improved body using the sd14 chip cuz Sigma had a bunch of the chips. I have no idea just how good the sd1 body really is, but from first reports the problems seem to be more from spp that hardware issues; so I am not expecting something like a sd1n.

But no matter how good the sd1 (or sd1n) turns out to be I seriously doubt Sigma would be able to sell 10k of them at the current price point. As Gary pointed out his experience was the sd1 out resolved his 5d. The problem is the 5d is really long in the tooth and Canon rumors are for an improved replacement; not to mention a new 1d4s; not to mention Nikon, Sony, and others will be bring out new improved models.

All in all I am not optimistic about a short term solution to an upgrade for my Sigma bodies. While it would not be a large number those guys who paid $US6,700 for an sd1 would not be happy with a price drop. The guy who won the sd1 and tried to sell it on ebay had a high bid of $US3,700 which was lower than his reserve.

It is one thing to speculate about how or why Sigma came up with the $US6,700 price point; but I really do not see any way I will be getting a new Sigma body any time soon.
--
Those who forget history are condemned to go to summer school.
 
I don't know... and I don't care, honestly.

I decided to go rational until things get clear around SD1. Because of it I had no DSLR since the beginning of 2011. And my DP1s is on a long trip to Japan...

So. What I did is to buy the most rational camera you can buy ATM - Nikon D7000. D7000 + 35/1.8 + 18-105 costed me less that SD15 + 30/1.4 + 18-125 would have. I really don't like it! Even Sigma cameras are more fun to use! For real!!! I cannot understand why Nikon always gets great reviews and Sigma don't. I'm an ex-Canon guy and Nikon s*#ks big time in the "Fun" department". I suppose my DP1 will beat it up on IQ like it used to with previous Canon gear. Cannot imagine how some company like Nikon will ever succeed with their claim against Sigma.

I remember my first DP1. Man, it was emotional. A dream coming true. On the contrary with D7000 purchase. It's not a camera, it's a toy for techno maniacs. I'm feeling like Ken Rockwell.

I have a 320 pages of manual to read now. At the time I'm done, hopefully the SD1 price will be very affordable.

Should have bought the SD15... or DP2x at least.
 
Amadeus21 said:
Kendall,

I knew you as a very skilled, alert and agile Sigma user.

But more and more I get the opinion, that you are more and more singing the song of Sigma corp.
Click to expand...
Why? Because I'm voicing an analysis and prediction based on historical precedent?

Many people have said over many years now Sigma was going to stop making cameras. Yet Sigma keeps making cameras, keeps doing research, keeps proceeding forward.

Why do you say I sing "the Song of Sigma" instead of "the Song of Most Likely Events From Past History"? Where are your complaints that the other poster is in fact posting a hypothesis not at all borne out by past Sigma actions?
Amadeus21 said:
I agree with the OP, that with the prize of SD1 Sigma has navigated itself into a dead-end-street. And actually there is no way out. Not any. They have lost thousands of SD customers and millions of $$$$ for at least more than 2 years.
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Sure there is. MR said it himself, reduce the price. It's a pretty simple path, they just have to take it.

But even not taking that path history has shown us Sigma will proceed regardless.

They have the luxury of doing so because of the lens business, but that only provides the means for that action to occur - the motive is what they have stated repeatedly, that they want to grow as a camera maker. Funny thing, it turns out the way you do that is by MAKING cameras, whereas NOT MAKING cameras is moving away from the stated goal.
Amadeus21 said:
marketing dabblers, I suggest.
Click to expand...
I'd say the true dabblers are the people posting speculation that have no basis from historical precedent and those that think them the more reasonable people.

--
---> Kendall
http://InsideAperture.com
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/user_home
 
lxstorm said:
lxstorm said:
It's the sensor. This is why there are no indications for FF Foveon yet.
Click to expand...
I doubt there are any technical problems in manufacturing large sensors once 300mm-450mm wafers are in use nowadays. Laying out larger number of smaller elements on the same area is.
...
Click to expand...
You can discuss sensor costs and rational marketing if you so wish. Unfortunately that has probably no application to Sigma cameras. For Sigma, making cameras is a VERY EXPENSIVE hobby. They have lost loads of money. Probably for every camera they have made.

Their dream is to become a player in the camera market. But they do it like you and I when we start a privately owned company, besides normal work. They use the money they have and the time that they can afford and do the best they can within that constraints. Almost never a recipe to success.

--
Roland

support http://www.openraw.org/
(Sleeping - so the need to support it is even higher)

X3F tools : http://www.proxel.se/x3f.html
 
SandyF said:
My prediction is that we'll know more at CES/PMA in January.... re future of SD1, possibility of that sensor in a DPx or compact type body, and most important for many of us, the upgrade path from the SD14/15. Announcement(s) at CES/PMA; prototype(s) at Photokina.
Click to expand...
Maybe Sandy.

I dont know about you - but I am starting to get tired of the waiting game.

--
Roland

support http://www.openraw.org/
(Sleeping - so the need to support it is even higher)

X3F tools : http://www.proxel.se/x3f.html
 
Interesting question for Sigma users:

Do you need a sensor upgrade, or is the SD15 sensor good enough?

I ask this question for very pragmatic reasons. I'm a hobbiest, I make prints, most on A4 paper, with a picture area of usually about 9 x 6 inches. A small number of images get printed bigger on A3 paper (image area around 15 x 10 inches approx), often smaller because of the weird aspect ratios I use.

I have printed precisely 5 prints larger than this (a couple of A2s (c. 24 x 16 inches) and 3 at 30 x 20. Even the 30 x 20 shot from a humble Fuji S5 (6MP) looks perfectly fine to me. Perhaps if I had a comparison shot from a high rez camera alongside it, the difference might be obvious, but in isolation it looks great.

Looking at prints from the Sd14 now that it is sorted to my satisfaction, it looks the equal of my 450D and 5D. To me, all my cameras produce ouput that is no way limiting my photography. I have quibbles over ergonomics and convenience but that is a different thing.

On the face of it, I have no practical reason to ever upgrade! Looking at better kit seems to be nothing but gear lust plus that treacherous little voice that says "if only I had...I could do....".

What do you think?

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/default.shtml
 
DMillier said:
Interesting question for Sigma users:

Do you need a sensor upgrade, or is the SD15 sensor good enough?

I ask this question for very pragmatic reasons. I'm a hobbiest, I make prints, most on A4 paper, with a picture area of usually about 9 x 6 inches. A small number of images get printed bigger on A3 paper (image area around 15 x 10 inches approx), often smaller because of the weird aspect ratios I use.

I have printed precisely 5 prints larger than this (a couple of A2s (c. 24 x 16 inches) and 3 at 30 x 20. Even the 30 x 20 shot from a humble Fuji S5 (6MP) looks perfectly fine to me. Perhaps if I had a comparison shot from a high rez camera alongside it, the difference might be obvious, but in isolation it looks great.

Looking at prints from the Sd14 now that it is sorted to my satisfaction, it looks the equal of my 450D and 5D. To me, all my cameras produce ouput that is no way limiting my photography. I have quibbles over ergonomics and convenience but that is a different thing.

On the face of it, I have no practical reason to ever upgrade! Looking at better kit seems to be nothing but gear lust plus that treacherous little voice that says "if only I had...I could do....".

What do you think?
Click to expand...
I think, the SD15 with a VERY good firmeware upgrade can do the job for a year or two.
--
http://www.hulyssbowman.com
 
DMillier said:
Interesting question for Sigma users:

Do you need a sensor upgrade, or is the SD15 sensor good enough?

I ask this question for very pragmatic reasons. I'm a hobbiest, I make prints, most on A4 paper, with a picture area of usually about 9 x 6 inches. A small number of images get printed bigger on A3 paper (image area around 15 x 10 inches approx), often smaller because of the weird aspect ratios I use.
Click to expand...
I'm a hobbyist also, and have printed a few shots at large sizes 18x24, 24x36, 30x40. Like you, I don't have a problem with the image quality in these large prints.

For me, the SD15 is just fine. I get the Foveon IQ at a reasonable price, and the camera is basically glitch-free too.

A pro photographer would probably prefer something with more resolution, particularly if they do art prints at large sizes. Since such prints sell for hundreds of dollars each, this would justify and pay for something such as the SD1.
--
Tom Schum
 
Roland Karlsson said:
lxstorm said:
Roland Karlsson said:
It's the sensor. This is why there are no indications for FF Foveon yet.
Click to expand...
I doubt there are any technical problems in manufacturing large sensors once 300mm-450mm wafers are in use nowadays. Laying out larger number of smaller elements on the same area is.
...
Click to expand...
You can discuss sensor costs and rational marketing if you so wish. Unfortunately that has probably no application to Sigma cameras. For Sigma, making cameras is a VERY EXPENSIVE hobby. They have lost loads of money. Probably for every camera they have made.

Their dream is to become a player in the camera market. But they do it like you and I when we start a privately owned company, besides normal work. They use the money they have and the time that they can afford and do the best they can within that constraints. Almost never a recipe to success.

--
Roland

support http://www.openraw.org/
(Sleeping - so the need to support it is even higher)

X3F tools : http://www.proxel.se/x3f.html
Click to expand...
There are examples of successful startups obviously. GOOGLE is the recent one.

However my point was that the assumption about Foveon sensor is being something extraordinary from semiconductors FABs point of view is not true simply. Intel Core I7 is way more advanced and does not cost 7 grand:-)

If Sigma cannot compete with Sony & Kodak in sensors production they have nobody to blame on except themselves.

Moreover marketing APS-size sensor camera that uses APS-lenses and has dark and small viewfinder as any APS-camera does as an MF-instrument sounds extremely unprofessional to me.

The last BS makes me feel that Sigma does not care about experienced customers at all but just hope that "MF- likeness" would be acceptable justification for SD1 crazy price tag for some amateurs who never handle MF system on their own.

Nikon being a pro oriented company would never cheated on their pro customers (reporters) that their 35mm stuff is an MF suddenly.
 
Hello Roland,
you wrote,
Roland Karlsson said:
Maybe Sandy.
I dont know about you - but I am starting to get tired of the waiting game.
Click to expand...
What are you waiting for? Makes me tired.

Can it be, that you as dedicated Pentax user still don´t own any SIGMA camera, despite your extraordinary interest in the X3f-technology.

Even Mr. D.Millier owns an SD9 + SD14 and he shows pictures of his work, so he has my full respect.
Still no pictures of Pentax 645D at pbase, even more SD1 pictures at pbase

http://www.pbase.com/cameras/pentax/645d
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd1

I bought my 1. SD15 with 18-200 DC OS at LIMAL-SIGMA for € 599,--, i don´t regret.

It´s my fourth SD-SIGMA after 3 SD14, all worked well. Still have a SD14 as 2. camera.

I managed to make pictures with my SD15 no problems.
Just an example



http://www.pbase.com/broethig/image/134961412/original

Best regards to Sweden

Bernd

http://www.pbase.com/broethig
 
if you shoot often with prime lenses, there is the distinct advantage with SD1 resolution of being able to crop and still maintain a good resolution and IQ. I shoot a lot with my 105mm EX on the SD14, using it as a mild tele- lenses, and I'd like to crop out a lot of extraneous detail from the photos.... but with the SD14 resolution, I think that leaves with no enough detail. Ditto with the DP1/DP2 "primes" ... I just don't crop when in fact I'd like to for compositional reasons for example.

For my Folklife Festival set(s) I mainly use the SD14 with 105mm EX if not the Pentax K20D; here's a random example http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann/3669999669/in/set-72157620914321069/ where crop would be useful. Lots more in that set.

I felt the same with the SD10 (need for rez for cropping) and was glad to get the extra resolution of the SD14/DP1/DP2... I can see a difference between SD10 and the SD14/DPx sensor in landscapes.

I think my 50mm EX and 105mm EX would do okay on the SD1 from examples I've seen. My intention was to buy the 85mm EX with the SD1; plan put off now due to price.
Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)
 
It would not surprise me.

Lets say they did a chip run of 10,000 but only got a 15% return thus the 7k camera body cost.

Big bucks invested, big chip cost but only 1500 chips out of the run.

Do you do another 15% run and just suck up the manufacturing problems in place ??

I think what they will do or should do is stop after this run is dry, bring in some specialist that can fix the manufacturing problems then release the SD1-2.

At that time they should add all the things that are missing from a current professional camera. Live view and tethered shooting and fix the bugs.

The question lingers how bad the manufacturing problem really is and if they have enough $ to fix it. Sigma is not a chip producer so if its a really bad screw up it could cost millions just to correct the manufacturing problems of the chip.

--
http://www.troyammons.com
http://www.pbase.com/tammons
 
lxstorm said:
There are examples of successful startups obviously. GOOGLE is the recent one.
Click to expand...
I did not say startups. I said hobby.

And even so, 99 out of 100 startups fails.
lxstorm said:
However my point was that the assumption about Foveon sensor is being something extraordinary from semiconductors FABs point of view is not true simply. Intel Core I7 is way more advanced and does not cost 7 grand:-)
Click to expand...
Thats true. Now - not many, except Intel, can design a Core I7.

But your point is probably right. Its not the chip manufacturing cost that sets the price.
lxstorm said:
If Sigma cannot compete with Sony & Kodak in sensors production they have nobody to blame on except themselves.
Click to expand...
But ... they are not into sensor production business. They are rather like Canon --- they make their own sensor. Thats much harder really - at least if you just make a few cameras.
lxstorm said:
Moreover marketing APS-size sensor camera that uses APS-lenses and has dark and small viewfinder as any APS-camera does as an MF-instrument sounds extremely unprofessional to me.
Click to expand...
Agree

Maybe - if we shall be nice to Sigma, then there is an advantage of a MF image quality camera that can be handled as an APS-C SLR. Now - the MF image quality is questionable.
lxstorm said:
The last BS makes me feel that Sigma does not care about experienced customers at all but just hope that "MF- likeness" would be acceptable justification for SD1 crazy price tag for some amateurs who never handle MF system on their own.
Click to expand...
Who knows what they really are thinking. But it sure looks like they think they have a MF competitor. Thats what they say and thats how they sell it.
lxstorm said:
Nikon being a pro oriented company would never cheated on their pro customers (reporters) that their 35mm stuff is an MF suddenly.
Click to expand...
If Nikon made an MF camera it would be one.

--
Roland

support http://www.openraw.org/
(Sleeping - so the need to support it is even higher)

X3F tools : http://www.proxel.se/x3f.html
 
1. Personal attacks are not allowed in the DPReview forums.

2. You (deliberately?) misunderstood what I meant with the "waiting game".

3. Go away Troll!

--
Roland

support http://www.openraw.org/
(Sleeping - so the need to support it is even higher)

X3F tools : http://www.proxel.se/x3f.html
 
I started with an SD14, added 2 SD9's and then a Canon T2i(18MP). As Sandy said, the only benefit to me is the ability to crop a photo and still have enough pixels left to print well. The best target for me is to work on framing photos better, so cropping is not required, and I have all the gear I need, right now. Most of my favorite prints (16x24") come from SD9 shots...
-John
DMillier said:
Interesting question for Sigma users:

Do you need a sensor upgrade, or is the SD15 sensor good enough?

I ask this question for very pragmatic reasons. I'm a hobbiest, I make prints, most on A4 paper, with a picture area of usually about 9 x 6 inches. A small number of images get printed bigger on A3 paper (image area around 15 x 10 inches approx), often smaller because of the weird aspect ratios I use.

I have printed precisely 5 prints larger than this (a couple of A2s (c. 24 x 16 inches) and 3 at 30 x 20. Even the 30 x 20 shot from a humble Fuji S5 (6MP) looks perfectly fine to me. Perhaps if I had a comparison shot from a high rez camera alongside it, the difference might be obvious, but in isolation it looks great.

Looking at prints from the Sd14 now that it is sorted to my satisfaction, it looks the equal of my 450D and 5D. To me, all my cameras produce ouput that is no way limiting my photography. I have quibbles over ergonomics and convenience but that is a different thing.

On the face of it, I have no practical reason to ever upgrade! Looking at better kit seems to be nothing but gear lust plus that treacherous little voice that says "if only I had...I could do....".

What do you think?

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/default.shtml
Click to expand...
--
http://www.johnlindroth.com/gallery/
[email protected]

My future starts when I wake up every morning ...
Every day I find something creative to do with my life.
--Miles Davis
 
I think Sigma will do a FF sensor that is 6000x4000. That is about a 6 micron pixel size, that should give very good ISO performance.
 
--

Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- "You are taking life too seriously if it bugs you in some way that a guy quotes himself in the .sig quote" - Ricardo
 
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