Ricoh-Pentax - do we have a new ball game?

Ricoh seemed to be settling down to the GXR and slowly releasing modules, they were on record as saying they were locked in to the GRD line. Seemed that the CX was fairly safe as well.

New modules for the GXR seem to be happening but not particularly fast. The M Mount module is probably on track and certainly should be officially announced fairly soon. The lack of any recent news about the foreshadowed aps-c zoom module has troubled some, maybe there were other priorities in the lead up to the Pentax acquisition.

Pentax of course must have been channelling quite a lot of effort into their Q product and Ricoh has announced it's PX camera which seems to have gone down like a lead balloon on the forum. One might wonder how it might fare in the market place.

More noise has erupted over the possibility of a K mount module for the GXR. Seems reasonable at first call, but then the difficulties seem to crop up.

No doubt that Ricoh/Pentax oem and after market dumb adapters will enable manual K mount lenses to be used on the M mount module pretty well straight away. However like all designed initially for slr lenses they will stand out well from the GXR body and be fairly cumbersome. But I guess they will be a lot of fun.

Ricoh/Pentax might also make an adapter with a manual aperture control to allow modern K mount lenses to be used in a manual manner.

Initially I thought a K mount adapter purpose built with sensor mated to mount and all electronics might be so obvious it had to happen. I am starting to wonder whether this might be a waste of precious development resources. The resulting module would give a quick access to an EVIL type camera body for owners of existing modern Pentax lenses but one might wonder if Ricoh might wish to lock in a mount module to a lens size format designed primarily for dslr flange back lengths. After all Ricoh has already gone to some lengths to keep the lens renge for the GXR as compact as possible.

However such a module might make a lot of people happy.

I have wondered if the delay in the aps-c zoom might be because it is an "M Mount lens" and that it will be driven by Ricoh-added electronics via an "enhanced" M Mount? Horror oh horror - could it even be a manual lens? "Back to the future?" Such a radical step could only be done by Ricoh (or perhaps Pentax). It would certainly keep the zoom lens compact - especially purpose designed for a rangefinder mount. If it is not made particularly fast a fairly simple manual zoom might be fairly compact. However I think the idea too radical even for Ricoh. However if the lens is going to be an M mount lens of any persuasion whatsoever then it might explain why there is no current news of it.

Ricoh-Pentax might yet produce a new range of lenses for the M Mount (of traditional or Ricoh-amended specification). But then of course, they might not.

Another possibility is a more traditional shaped back with built in evf also based on the interchangeable module system. With a K mount module it would seem a better balance for K mount lenses of all descriptions.

I guess what I am saying is that designed-for-slr/dslr lenses might work on an EVIL type sysyem but designed for the purpose lenses have to be smaller and ultimately more desirable.

Ricoh have an M Mount module nearly there. Whether it is a manual only mount (most likely) or a modified mount to take automatic lenses we shall soon see. Nothing wrong with the idea of a further K Mount module, but it has to be a kludge job with limited future for new lenses. If would also confuse and proliferate Ricoh's product line.

Seems simpler to put electronics in the M mount and simply adapt the K mount to it. With electronic contacts it might even be possible to make a modern K mount adapter to give full functionality.

Going to be interesting from the sidelines.

--
Tom Caldwell

Well, Leica's own zooms for M-mount are neither particularly fast nor small ... The Tri-Elmar-M lenses. They are great performers, however, but a bit pricey for the GXR market.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

I believe the acquisition has put the cat amongst the pigeons and affected their plans big and small because not even Ricoh I think knew they'd be buying Pentax when they were announcing the GXR M-mount and APS-c zoom modules roadmap.

Ricoh now finds itself with its new subsidiary in the position of owning three proprietry interchangeable lens systems (compact, DSLR and medium format) whilst having none at all in the fastest-growing MILC category up against the micro 4/3s or even NEX/NX100 APS-c systems. What they have then is 3 lens systems yet their only lens-mount in the MILC class is none of these, it's a mount for other co's lenses and not their own. This is not an ideal situation for any company that will be making and selling its own lenses, I'm sure.

So will Ricoh keep these three as independent Pentax systems and keep the GXR M-mount separate? Basically operate as two independent companies as they do now? Or will the companies merge economies of scale with Ricoh adopting the lens systems as well into their own line up? Rocoh GR DSLR lenses for the K mount. A K mount GXR Camera Unit. A Q mount GXR Camera Unit. The GXR can be the link between the high and low end lens systems.

But still they won't have a competitive MILC lens-mount system of their own. Especially if/when Canon and Nikon enter the fray with their own MILC systems, Nikon's sensor rumored to be slightly smaller than m4/3.

Do they have to address this market at all beynd the high-end GXR? Who knows, the Q may sell like hotcakes in the Japanese market, and then the world. Corner the compact consumer ILC market while all the rest battle it out for the MILC category. But I can certainly see Ricoh at least trying to fit the Q onto the GRD or even S10 GXR module to have a far more appealing compact system than using 1/2.3" sensors to take the compact end of the MILC market. Quite possibly the most appealing compact system of them all - a GRD4 with interchangeable lenses. I'm no optical engineer, but I can imagine a 1/1.7" sensor visually fitting within the image circle of the Q lens mount, so perhaps the Ricoh engineers can imagine it too and work out if it's possible and make it happen. Have already done so, which is why they bought it...

We live in interesting times in Ricoh Pentax land.

Why can't Ricoh take existing pentax lenses and make a GXR module (not a K module), one for each lens they choose to use, if they have the glass would not the rest be somewhat easy, or is the design for SLR's and thus makes this idea kind of out there.

Joel Stern said:

Why can't Ricoh take existing pentax lenses and make a GXR module (not a K module), one for each lens they choose to use, if they have the glass would not the rest be somewhat easy, or is the design for SLR's and thus makes this idea kind of out there.

Click to expand...

As has been mentioned in other threads, it would likely make the modules unnecessarily bulky.

Mirrorless bodies need a new lens line to be provide the compactness that people find desireable. Remember that Pentax Imaging isn't a company ... Pentax Imaging is a division of Hoya constituting a brand, some products, technologies and expertise. The brand, and its associated network of marketing, sales and distribution in the USA, are the most valuable parts of the acquisition to Ricoh IMO, given that Ricoh has plenty of expertise, technologies and products.

I think the Pentax product line will continue as it exists for some time due to the installed user base. How far and in what direction Ricoh chooses to develop it further is an interesting question. The Q is a sideline, a niche product that might get an interesting enthusiast following of its own ... I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist about that.

Regards mirrorless (or LIVE as I like to call it), Ricoh's GXR is bold and innovative. The current camera module lineup is pretty strong, the M-lens module is going to really expand the niche market for it. Why compete on the same footing with a "Me too!" product as the other LIVE cameras? As soon as Ricoh's marketing in the USA gets stepped up, I think GXR sales will expand quite a lot based on the looks I got showing the GXR around a photographic gathering yesterday. Most people here simply haven't seen one in the flesh yet. Sales will drive more GXR products. When I mentioned that it will soon be able to mount Leica M lenses, the blinding light of eyes lighting up was intense ... ;-) The Q plays here as well, it's different although I feel it's a sideline due to the sensor size for the more sophisticated photographers. Could take off into a pretty nice business of its own.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

The obvious move would seem to be a new mount that is electrically compatible with K but with a much shorter flange back.

You can then throw in an adapter that passes the electrics through so you can mount existing K lenses.
You release this as a GXR module and ship the adapter with the module.

This approach provides a quick and easy entry into mirrorless for Ricoh/Pentax, a bridge between the Ricoh and Pentax products and a GXR mount module that will help sell Ricoh/Pentax lenses (unlike the M mount).

I'd also give reasonable odds that the Pentax guys have already done a concept workup on a short K mount, the mirrorless writing has been on the wall for sometime.

The other one that seems likely is a Q module. An interesting question there is whether the Q lens and mount will support a slightly bigger sensor, like the S10.

--
See my photos at http://www.tolomea.com

I think a Ricoh-Pentax merger has some great possibilities. Ricoh could benefit from the Pentax distribution channels. Getting Ricoh camera out to a broader market can only help. However, the merger of two companies takes a lot of resources and money. This can negatively impact research and development as Ricoh sorts out its product lines and determines where it wants to go.

I also first thought a K mount with all required electrical connections would be one of the products coming out of this merger. However, as stated in this and other threads, SLR lens are big when compared to other types of lens. We can only wait and see.

--
What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? (unknown)

Godfrey said:

When I mentioned that it will soon be able to mount Leica M lenses, the blinding light of eyes lighting up was intense ... ;-)

Click to expand...

Can someone bring me up to speed - is the M-mount module going to be able to use any electronics that may be in Leica lenses, or will the same lens work differently on the M-module than it does on a Leica camera? Or maybe they have no such electronics; I don't know, so I'm asking.

Re the Q series, I hope that it does not lead a lot of folks down the wrong road. As I said earlier, some folks assume than any $800 camera is bound to take the same quality of photographs, not that it's a very nice $400 camera that has interchangeable lenses. People put the same or even more faith in the price they paid as they do in megapixel-count stickers. That's why 100,000 people paid more for a junky Fotron clunker than it would have cost them to buy a Nikon F w/ f1.4. They were sure that for that price it MUST take great photos, ignoring all else but the price.

Ricoh is going to have to sort out what they will continue to make and how much overlap if any there will be between Ricoh and Pentax products. I believe they need to keep the GXR series as differentiated as possible from the Pentax line and lenses. It won't do much good to see the same lens offered at $400 for the Pentax, and $600 for the GXR because of the module's extra cost. They need to emphasize the unique strengths of the GXR and not highlight the aspects which are less enticing. If they use any Pentax lenses, they ought to be at least slightly tweaked and re-named as Ricoh lenses for the GXR.
--
Art is far superior to "artsy".

Midwest said:

Midwest said:

When I mentioned that it will soon be able to mount Leica M lenses, the blinding light of eyes lighting up was intense ... ;-)

Click to expand...

Can someone bring me up to speed - is the M-mount module going to be able to use any electronics that may be in Leica lenses, or will the same lens work differently on the M-module than it does on a Leica camera? Or maybe they have no such electronics; I don't know, so I'm asking.

Click to expand...

M-bayonet lenses have no electronics. Late model M-bayonet lenses from Leica have coded optical strips on the mount that a reader on the M8 and M9 series bodies' mount uses to recognize which lens is mounted. This triggers data in the EXIF and tells the body whether to use some special corrective image processing (if that function is enabled by the user), but otherwise there is no electronic communication between lens and body.

As far as I can tell from the available pictures of the M-lens module, Ricoh is not implementing a code-reader for the lens codes ... even on Leica M bodies, their existence isn't guaranteed and they are considered auxiliary data for enhanced operation only. There might be input capability supplied by the Ricoh M-lens module that allow you to select which lens you're using to embed information into the EXIF data, performing the equivalent function.

As to other operational differences, the optical rangefinder in an M body operates via a mechanical cam, irrelevant to a LIVE camera since you're focusing and viewing through the lens, and the aperture value for EXIF is deduced based on metering value, ISO, EV compensation and exposure time in the M bodies .. don't know what if anything Ricoh is doing there. They could have a menu pick that allow you to set what lens and aperture are being used, for instance, or they could just ignore including this information in the EXIF data. I expect the metering options to be Manual and Aperture priority AE as the body will have no control of the mechanical aperture setting for Program or Shutter priority functions.

Exactly what features and how the M-lens module will work is, of course, only to be seen when they get into the marketplace. But I think these are reasonable conjectures.

Midwest said:

Ricoh is going to have to sort out what they will continue to make and how much overlap if any there will be between Ricoh and Pentax [branded] products. ...

Click to expand...

I'm sure Ricoh have a plan, and will modify the plan as market demand and conditions develop.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

tolomea said:

The obvious move would seem to be a new mount that is electrically compatible with K but with a much shorter flange back.

You can then throw in an adapter that passes the electrics through so you can mount existing K lenses. ...

Click to expand...

The problem with this is that all Pentax AF lenses have mechanical iris actuation/regulation and only some have in-lens servo motors for AF, most are mechanical drive delivered by the body. Unless you implement the mechanical mechanisms to control the aperture from the mount and drive the AF, Pentax lenses will always be a 'dumb' (as in no body control of focus or aperture) adaptation to the GXR ... with DA series lenses, you will even lack manual aperture control as they have no aperture rings.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

about K lens, or new lenses / modules for GXR:
The K mount Pentax FA43 ltd. also had been issued as a LTM FA43-L for Leica.

my maybe silly question: is the FA43-L a smaller lens than the original, or is it simply the same with the additional distance it needed to be right for the Leica built into it's body and therefore even is a bigger, or longer lens?

Or asking differently: is it feasible to take existing designs of K mount lenses to 'easily' make new, smaller lenses for the smaller register distance of a mirrorless, for future GXR modules or the M module?
--
http://flickr.com/photos/kuuan/
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/andreasgriesmayr
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=kuuan

But we can only see if that is exploited by actions rather than speculation!

Despite some reservations in my own personal dealings on a very limited basis with Ricoh Europe (polite but largely missing the points I made to them)

I'm happy to give them some room and time to prove their metal on this one so it's not doom and gloom as I'm so often accused of being! Some Pentax users are cautious some are concerned some are pretty happy to be rid of Hoya who priced K mount glass up to high levels which hurt the system (I'm in the last category)

So as far as I can see Ricoh seem interested in Pentax cameras and their division..where Hoya never really were so that's a good thing if nothing else!

Now where they take K mount is another big question and we frankly have no idea on this bar the fairly upbeat Ricoh press release talking about investment and moving the brand forward expansion etc etc. It was vague but ticked the right boxes for most least for me anyway.

GXR well like most Ricoh products they are more niche and not mainstream same for the other compacts they do. This isn't a huge problem IMO as Pentax should be more mainstream esp the DSLR system so I don't see a conflict here rather the reverse actually.

But I have to say frankly I couldn't care less about the GXR system it's interesting to a point but whatever mounts and modules they make it's simply not even on the radar for me..fine keep it around I still feel it was a good idea but not really hitting the spot or rather marginalising itself with the other ILC models stealing the thunder.

What I am interested in is what they do with K mount esp lenses and body wise. Some fear a mirrorless only rampage if that's true I'm out of Pentax asap...leaving that aside

I don't expect them to do that but they do need to sort out the lens and flashguns on K mount they need to make K mount genuinely appealing to a much broader audience not solely relying on overpriced slow limited primes to sell the system to a minority of "small is nice" users.

I want to see Pentax right in there offering a real alternative to the other makers
Better range of bodies including a genuine mid level one
A FF body later on

More affordable (fast) primes and zooms as well as some hard hitting selected ones for the wallet offloading crowd.
New flashguns
Better thought out models and more competitive system
Dump the Q it's a dead horse already in it's current form

Mirrorless is better played ala NEX and NX/Micro 4/3 style rather than trying to hobble it into a DSLR body fine if they play with that

The jury is out for now..we'll see soon enough

kuuan said:

about K lens, or new lenses / modules for GXR:
The K mount Pentax FA43 ltd. also had been issued as a LTM FA43-L for Leica.

my maybe silly question: is the FA43-L a smaller lens than the original, or is it simply the same with the additional distance it needed to be right for the Leica built into it's body and therefore even is a bigger, or longer lens?

Or asking differently: is it feasible to take existing designs of K mount lenses to 'easily' make new, smaller lenses for the smaller register distance of a mirrorless, for future GXR modules or the M module?

Click to expand...

As can be seen in this photo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tokyocamerastyle/5076589698/

the 43mm lens in Leica M mount is actually bulkier than the SLR lens ... the optics are identical, the lens mount is bigger to accommodate the decreased mount register and incorporate the required mechanical rangefinder cam.

The FA43mm f/1.9 Limited is a very compact lens in this focal length and speed class for an SLR. It can be because its focal length is only a mm or two shorter than the mount register so it uses a simple optical formula and doesn't include too long a focusing mount for macro close up work. It's AF capability is also driven by the body using a mechanical drive, which means there doesn't have to be space in the mount for servo motors, and the iris is actuated by a thin lever too.

But for a compact camera like the GXR, it's on the larger side of what is desirable.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

Godfrey said:

As can be seen in this photo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tokyocamerastyle/5076589698/

the 43mm lens in Leica M mount is actually bulkier than the SLR lens ... the optics are identical, the lens mount is bigger to accommodate the decreased mount register and incorporate the required mechanical rangefinder cam.......

Click to expand...

thank's Godfrey, hm..kind of what I had been expecting

just as I understand, well, not really understand but strongly suppose from what I grasp - that a smaller lens for shorter register distance must be of a different design, that one cannot take the design of a lens made for a SLR and simply make the same 'smaller', right?
a pity though ;-)
--
http://flickr.com/photos/kuuan/
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/andreasgriesmayr
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=kuuan

kuuan said:

just as I understand, well, not really understand but strongly suppose from what I grasp - that a smaller lens for shorter register distance must be of a different design, that one cannot take the design of a lens made for a SLR and simply make the same 'smaller', right?

Click to expand...

Correct.

And the effect of a shorter register has a more pronounced effect on lens size depending upon the focal length and speed as well. For example, a 28mm lens on a 28mm mount register, with no moving mirror behind it to clear, can be a simpler, smaller, symmetrical design and an f/2 speed for that lens will be much smaller than an asymmetrical, retro-focus SLR lens, 28mm f/2 lens on a 45mm mount register. However, a 75mm f/2 lens for either mount register is going to be about the same size overall because the focal length is much longer than the mount register and needs the same bulk of glass for the optical design in either case.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

Godfrey said:

tolomea said:

The obvious move would seem to be a new mount that is electrically compatible with K but with a much shorter flange back.

You can then throw in an adapter that passes the electrics through so you can mount existing K lenses. ...

Click to expand...

The problem with this is that all Pentax AF lenses have mechanical iris actuation/regulation and only some have in-lens servo motors for AF, most are mechanical drive delivered by the body. Unless you implement the mechanical mechanisms to control the aperture from the mount and drive the AF, Pentax lenses will always be a 'dumb' (as in no body control of focus or aperture) adaptation to the GXR ... with DA series lenses, you will even lack manual aperture control as they have no aperture rings.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

Click to expand...

Yikes! Spunds like the Ricoh-M mount adapter to the K mount will be pretty complex even if the Ricoh-M does get some electronic smarts which is very much a conjecture.

--
Tom Caldwell

I don't know anything really about lens making facilities other than Ricoh must have them and they are tuned to making compact copier lenses and no doubt copier lens technology and compact camera lens technology must overlap to an extent. I presume Ricoh is able to produce large quantities of small lenses. Perhaps the equivalent if not more than Pentax capabilities. For this purpose I also presume that Ricoh has not updated it's regular slr/rangefinder facilities for modern mass production. They might still exist, suitable for experimentation or trial production, they might be scrapped. Their lens production facilities may even be adaptable to make differnet lens types, I simply do not know.

However Pentax must have facilities for producing modern dslr type and medium format type lenses in some quantity. Also the hard yards in designing and tooling up.

I think Godfrey has quite demolished the full adapt on to the M mount theory. I had my doubts on whether it could be anything other than stop gap as the K mount lenses would be large "fun lenses" on the GXR and although they might take great images would be a porky crowd next to the NEX, NX and M4/3 native offerings. As also the neat GXR native modules. One then might wonder why a whole lot of resources might be committed to making a complex very expensive adapter to mount overweight lenses on a petite camera body. However the K lens market must be huge and there might still be some logic in finding a way.

My guess is that the fairly dumb Q mount way of manufacture might point to Pentax tooling up to make lenses for the M mount adapter as well. When you think of it there is not much point in making a series of lenses to a mount system that will help a competitor. But the Leica world market is small and even if Leica people deign to fit a Ricoh-Pentax M mount lens on their Leica camera there is more disadvantage to Leica than to Ricoh. If this happens there might even be an increase in Leica body sales but probably not enough to worry Ricoh's future viability.

Ricoh quite sensibly in my opinion opted for the DNG format for RAW. Opting for the M mount for their open module also seems inspired. It gives them a mount with a suitable short flange-back distance that already has multitudes of suitable lenses existing around the world to keep the punters happy whilst Ricoh produce their own.

We have to accept that the M mount module will be dumb but I can't help thinking that Ricoh woud be remiss not to design some electrical contacts into this mount. They don't have to kill off compatibility with manual M mount lenses in the process. If they have electrically functioning M mount perhaps Leica will respond favourably and even join in the fun? Who knows?

Meanwhile - dumb K mount to M mount for sure and instantly. Electronics K adapter to M mount? Pardon? We don't even know whether Ricoh's implementation of M mount will have electronics for a start. Full K Mount module for the GXR, mmmm ... don't think so - at least not yet. My opinion is that they might be better to design a completely new back combined to a built in evf - make it versatile rather than tiny-tiny (think Samsung NX10 style) with a modular lens style and first issue is a K mount module. A true EVIL type. Pentax guys can be happy and the new body could take the existing GXR modules including their M Mount module. Of course the K Mount module would then retrofit on the GXR if possible.

In a swoop Ricoh-Pentax cover the range of interchangeable lens cameras from the "consumer"-level Q to rangefinder/dslr-style EVIL to "legacy" dslr to medium format.

Guess they will have to start chewing furiously lest they be over-stretched financially with too many great projects in the fire and make them subject to take over by the big boys.

Wouldn't be the first time a company foundered under the weight of too many ideas and not enough money to market them all properly.

"Make something great and I will buy it and you will make a fortune" is sadly a pious hope in such circumstances. If you have fifty great products you cannot make them all, your bankers are a stuffy bunch of risk-averse conservatives.

However there is no reason why we cannot get a sub-set fairly soon and enough to keep us well amused for quite a few years to come.

--
Tom Caldwell

Tom Caldwell said:

However there is no reason why we cannot get a sub-set fairly soon and enough to keep us well amused for quite a few years to come.

Click to expand...

The change of ownership won't even be finalized until October so we can't really be expecting anything for the rest of the year other than existing projects that were already in the pipeline for both companies, such as the launch of the Q and the GXR zoom and M-mount units, maybe the K-r successor.

Tom Caldwell said:

Yikes! Spunds like the Ricoh-M mount adapter to the K mount will be pretty complex even if the Ricoh-M does get some electronic smarts which is very much a conjecture.

Click to expand...

The only sensible adapter to layer on the M-bayonet lens module, is a dumb adaptation with manual focus and manual iris control. There's too much to do for KAF lenses otherwise. The DA series aperture control can be provided with a simple ring on the adapter engaging the lens actuation iris inside the mount. The only problem with that is that the settings of the aperture ring will necessarily be somewhat coarse as that lever only has about 5-6mm of movement from fully open to fully closed down. (Novoflex offer Pentax and Nikon G lens adapters for Micro-FourThirds with this solution as it is common to both lens mounts.)

Manual focus K, M and A series Pentax lenses have no electronics to connect to and have an aperture ring so for them a dumb adapter is simple and cheap. You can buy them for M-bayonet mount for $75 from rugift.com, or $150 for higher quality ones from cameraquest.com.

Ricoh should put the money into development of new products, not adaptation of old lenses. If they're sensible, with the release of the M-lens camera module they'll re-issue their own, very nice quality and compact 28mm f/2.8 in Leica M-bayonet mount. If they price it under the Voigtländer Ultron 28/2 (about $600), it will sell well both for the Ricoh GXR + M-lens module, and for Leica M folks too.
--
Godfrey
http://godfreydigiorgi.posterous.com

Ricoh did say somewhere that they were not putting their Old M mount lenses back into production. I guess nobody cares if they change their mind.

--
Tom Caldwell