Phantom Camera

At PhotoPlus Expo I was told that there would DEFINITLY be sample images before Thanksgiving! I have to say I am a bit disapointed in Kodak, a company I usually hold in very high regard.

While I believe there is a camera coming, I also believe that there are significant issues with it (I smell Contax). However, regardless, this is a camera which should have been announced and shipped at the upcomming PMA, and not at Photokina, since it is VERY unlikely to ship before the end of the year at this point.

--
Peter Sills
Digital Focus
http://www.digitalfocus.net

I went to the PhotoPlus Expo and was told a similar thing.

Kodak likely wanted to steal some of the 1Ds' thunder. This they seem to have done. Many of us who may have plunged into the new Canon are waiting it out and hoping for the 14n.

Best,
Robert

I have gone from great joy by preordering the 14n to utter disgust!

When there were no samples, I was indifferent but I could wait.

When they didn't meet their price target, I was upset but anyone could make a mistake.

When Jay Kelbley accused another poster that the price was only wishful thinking, I was angry and cancelled my preorder.

When the European price was announced at $5,600, I said another broken promise but it doesn't affect me as I don't live in Europe and cancel my order.

When the dealers are saying 1st quarter 2003, I got disgusted and hope that Kodak falls flat on their face with this product.

I expect them to salvage it but I hope they only keep their current customers and the rest of us go to their competitors.

Philip

I was hoping that this camera would be my path to full frame shooting again. Looks like just so much hype now after 1,000 price hike, no photo samples and stone wall silence from Kodak about any problems they might be having. If no samples are released by December 5th my order will be canceled.
--
D30,50-1.8,28-135IS,420EX

I can understand the frustration, but until late next year (a guess?), we have few choices in Full Frame DSLRs. The Canon will be shipping in small numbers, and no doubt others will be announced, but look for slow follow through and more feet dragging.
I'll bet Kodak is having CA issues at wide angle...........
Best,
Robert

My bet is that it is not CA issues... I think its production or SOFTWARE... it seems software is allways more problems then hardware is most cases...

Robert P Miller said:

I can understand the frustration, but until late next year (a
guess?), we have few choices in Full Frame DSLRs. The Canon will be
shipping in small numbers, and no doubt others will be announced,
but look for slow follow through and more feet dragging.
I'll bet Kodak is having CA issues at wide angle...........
Best,
Robert

Click to expand...

Masterdeath said:

My bet is that it is not CA issues... I think its production or
SOFTWARE... it seems software is allways more problems then
hardware is most cases...

Click to expand...

Amen to that. With the 14n and SD9 we have a perfect example of different approaches to the same problem. The SD9 came out with software issues still unresolved, because it was already 6 months late and presumably Sales had set a 2002 drop-dead date of 1 Nov. At Kodak, regardless of all the "absolutley, positively will launch by such-and-such," what they're really saying is, "It'll be ready when it's ready." They'd rather launch late than launch poorly.

Two different approaches - launch prematurely to catch the big season and risk bad reviews or sell vaporware and risk that customers will move on. It's a tough call for a CEO.

Masterdeath said:

My bet is that it is not CA issues... I think its production or
SOFTWARE... it seems software is allways more problems then
hardware is most cases...

Click to expand...

A general remark. It might apply to this situation, but it also applies to other camera's, I think:

SW must recently also compensate for various HW problems that pop up. If sensor HW would be perfectly linear, etc, then the SW would be way simpler.

JanR

Masterdeath said:

Robert P Miller said:

I can understand the frustration, but until late next year (a
guess?), we have few choices in Full Frame DSLRs. The Canon will be
shipping in small numbers, and no doubt others will be announced,
but look for slow follow through and more feet dragging.
I'll bet Kodak is having CA issues at wide angle...........
Best,
Robert

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I think the review of the SD-9 from Phil was quite positive. It pointed
out the problems many people already recognized existed in the sensor and
the RAW conversion software was top notch (real time). The color clipping
might be a result of software OR of the sensor. By bet it is a limit of
the X3 sensor and we will have to wait for a second Gen product. In short the
SD-9 was as good as it was going to get at this time. And it ain't that
bad.

As for the Delay on the Kodak it could be:
1) Software and frame rate issues. Most reported about .5 to .3 fps.
2) AA Filter issues. Maybe Kodak found that materials looked really
bad (fashion shoots) and are designing an optional AA filter.
3) Noise issues. Could be software or hardware.
4) Problems with wide-angles and FF. Might limit the lens choices on
the camera.
5) Production issues. Making a FF sensor can be tough.
6) Documentation. I have seen this more than once. So much concentration
on the technical aspect and people miss the manual not being on schedule.

At this point, it is clear that there is something that is holding back Kodak.
Let them finish, don't make plans (financial or jobs) until the product is
actually released. Either use your existing tools or use a competitors
product.

Steven

--
---
My really bad Fall Adventures:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/fall_adventures_2002

Peter Sills said:

While I believe there is a camera coming, I also believe that there
are significant issues with it (I smell Contax). However,
regardless, this is a camera which should have been announced and
shipped at the upcomming PMA, and not at Photokina, since it is
VERY unlikely to ship before the end of the year at this point.

Click to expand...

Peter, I notice you spend most of your time on the Canon SLR forum and come here once in a while to make a negative post about Kodak. If you are trying to create a news site, I would suggest trying to come out looking impartial. Considering when the Kodak was first announced and the fact that it is not even December yet, the Contax reference is WAY out of line.

Say, how about doing a little investigative journalism on where Canon got their 30K MTBF figure on the 14n shutter?
Rick

I actually spend a lot of time in almost all of the forums. I post most often in the Canon, as that is the camera I use, and I generally have more access and insight into Canon than any other manufacturer.

I have nothing against Kodak, Nikon or any other manufacturer, and can tell you where Canon most likely got the specs on the Kodak shutter, Nikon. It seems that Kodak has not been very forthcomming with facts and figures with the new camera (quite common actually before its actual release). However, my understanding is that Kodak has not denied the number.

As for the camera, what you are hearing from me is a bit of my frustration with the way Kodak is doing business. I have heard "next week" from them since they announced the camera, for when shots would be available, for when more information would be available, etc. Just my 2 cents, but it seems that they announced at Photokina purely to steal the thunder of the show, but that it was premature. I am not a fan of this practice.

In the end, the camera will be shipping probably about PMA time-frame in any quantity. I think it would have built them a MUCH better reputation to have announced and shipped in quantity at PMA than to have preannounced at Photokina, raised the price, delay the shipping, and run into technical problems.

In the end, I am VERY anxious to get this camera into my hands and play with it. It sounds extremely impressive. However, I am concerned that people expect every camera to be perfect, and ***** and moan when a feature of the camera may be found to be wanting.

Kodak is promising a lot in this camera, orientation sensor, ERI-JPEG, variable sized RAW, etc. None of these are in the Canon, but the Canon is in the hands of photograpers today.

As for the posting of the original comparison by Canon of the two cameras, I would LOVE to post a comparison by Kodak of the two, but there is NO information coming from Kodak on the camera at this point other than "next week!"

I used to manage software development teams. I know what "next week" means when it comes from a technical team. ;-}

Peter

Rick Boden said:

Peter Sills said:

While I believe there is a camera coming, I also believe that there
are significant issues with it (I smell Contax). However,
regardless, this is a camera which should have been announced and
shipped at the upcomming PMA, and not at Photokina, since it is
VERY unlikely to ship before the end of the year at this point.

Click to expand...

Peter, I notice you spend most of your time on the Canon SLR forum
and come here once in a while to make a negative post about Kodak.
If you are trying to create a news site, I would suggest trying to
come out looking impartial. Considering when the Kodak was first
announced and the fact that it is not even December yet, the Contax
reference is WAY out of line.
Say, how about doing a little investigative journalism on where
Canon got their 30K MTBF figure on the 14n shutter?
Rick

Click to expand...

--
Peter Sills
Digital Focus
http://www.digitalfocus.net

Hello Peter,

Actually I don't think Nikon has ever published specs on any of the N 80 line up. And I don't think that Canon and Nikon share such specs. Acutally 30K frames on any camera is pretty low.

Nikon has made a point of saying that they used a DIFFERENT shutter on the D100, so I don't think anyone knows the actual number of frames.

Fuji I believe did use the N80 shutter, but that is only speculation. However there are numerous S1 users out there (using a N65 body) with way over 30K frames.

KODAK has made it a point of saying that they aren't using the standard N80 shutter. I have a note from Jay K, stating this. I really don't know as anyone else whose shutter they are using, however I have told its a "metal Blade".

As to the release and delay, I could agree more with you. Kodak spoofed Canon, at Photokina as no one expected them to do this. Canon on the other is now shipping the 1Ds in limited quanities to very selected dealers. To me its a mute point as 8K I can't justify, even if I was a Canon shooter. Kodak's 14mp for 5K is just a better deal for me in my style of shooting. I also totally agree that the 1Ds is hands down the better body and overall built camera. As to the asking price, well thats the whole point of having the only one on the block.

The only vendor who could effect Canon's price would be Nikon, whenever they anno the follow on to the D1x series. However I strongly believe that they will follow Canon's lead and be in the same price point. Why not?

As to KODAK'S delay, well its only costing them $$, and in theri current state of financial affairs, thats hurting them. I feel that Kodak would have loved to have shipped as many 14n's as they could in Dec, to effect their bottom line. This delay, if it really happens, is hurting. But all the signs have been there for some time. Kodak has yet to get the camera into anyone's hands for review and there are no review images anywhere. I strongly believe its not the camera but their photodesk software thats causing the delay.

Canon on the other hand gets a perfect score, they met all their dates and for that I commend them. I don't however commend them on their FUD doc that has everyone so upset. In my line of work, that is not possible and is a bet your job. This is no different that selling a car, to bad.

Paul Caldwell
[email protected]

Peter Sills said:

I have nothing against Kodak, Nikon or any other manufacturer, and
can tell you where Canon most likely got the specs on the Kodak
shutter, Nikon. It seems that Kodak has not been very forthcomming
with facts and figures with the new camera (quite common actually
before its actual release). However, my understanding is that
Kodak has not denied the number.

As for the camera, what you are hearing from me is a bit of my
frustration with the way Kodak is doing business. I have heard
"next week" from them since they announced the camera, for when
shots would be available, for when more information would be
available, etc. Just my 2 cents, but it seems that they announced
at Photokina purely to steal the thunder of the show, but that it
was premature. I am not a fan of this practice.

In the end, the camera will be shipping probably about PMA
time-frame in any quantity. I think it would have built them a
MUCH better reputation to have announced and shipped in quantity at
PMA than to have preannounced at Photokina, raised the price, delay
the shipping, and run into technical problems.

In the end, I am VERY anxious to get this camera into my hands and
play with it. It sounds extremely impressive. However, I am
concerned that people expect every camera to be perfect, and *****
and moan when a feature of the camera may be found to be wanting.

Kodak is promising a lot in this camera, orientation sensor,
ERI-JPEG, variable sized RAW, etc. None of these are in the Canon,
but the Canon is in the hands of photograpers today.

As for the posting of the original comparison by Canon of the two
cameras, I would LOVE to post a comparison by Kodak of the two,
but there is NO information coming from Kodak on the camera at this
point other than "next week!"

I used to manage software development teams. I know what "next
week" means when it comes from a technical team. ;-}

Peter

Rick Boden said:

Peter Sills said:

While I believe there is a camera coming, I also believe that there
are significant issues with it (I smell Contax). However,
regardless, this is a camera which should have been announced and
shipped at the upcomming PMA, and not at Photokina, since it is
VERY unlikely to ship before the end of the year at this point.

Click to expand...

Peter, I notice you spend most of your time on the Canon SLR forum
and come here once in a while to make a negative post about Kodak.
If you are trying to create a news site, I would suggest trying to
come out looking impartial. Considering when the Kodak was first
announced and the fact that it is not even December yet, the Contax
reference is WAY out of line.
Say, how about doing a little investigative journalism on where
Canon got their 30K MTBF figure on the 14n shutter?
Rick

Click to expand...

--
Peter Sills
Digital Focus
http://www.digitalfocus.net

Click to expand...

Well guys I am allmost on the same page you are... I bought a S2 but kept my pre-order incase the S2 dont cut it from no FF... Their are 3 dates that are in the future the if Kodak dont hit they will get screwed... 1) Many dealers have been told they will have samples by Dec 1 range, this is 2 days away... If we see them then, we are off to a good start. 2) Some dealers have been told they will recieved a few models that they can use as demo and such.. Mid Dec so I guess mid dec means Dec 15.. 3) that by the end of Jan large numbers will be shipping to mass end users...

If 1 and 2 dont happen on time then 3 will never happen soon enough... I hope that I can get it by end of Feb or will lose money.. we have so many weddings in March that going digital before then to save a lot of money..

Paul,

I have not been able to turn up anything published by Nikon on the N80 Shutter and its MTBF numbers, though this site might help with some insight: http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/mf/mtbf.html .

As for the number, I would think that a number between 30,000 - 50,000 would be about right given the body, etc. Also, I have not assumed that due to the fact that Kodak might be manufacturing the shutter assembly that this increases the numbers. In fact, the lack of information from Kodak on this topic, especially in light of the fact that it has become something of a "hot" issue with people in this forum, tends to strengthen these numbers. Also, don't get me wrong, I do not think these are terrible numbers, and they should be in line with those of the D100, S2, D60, etc.

As for the Canon FUD document, remember, this was distributed by Canon to their dealers to help them sell their cameras. This was not intended as a piece for the general public. While I do not see anything innacruate within the document, it is not designed to support Kodak's product line. In fact, given what information is reported, I think it is fairly unbiased. Of course, Kodak might want to focus on other facts in their own comparison, and they should as they have a lot to crow about.

In the end, the arguement of "Which camera is better?" is stupid. Most people interested in the Kodak at this point, simply can't afford the Canon, or have a heavy invenstment in Nikon lenses. This is simply because the Canon is real today and you can get one, vs. waiting for the promised future.

My entire point however, is simply this, Kodak did themselves a great diservice by announcing a camera they could not deliver in a reasonable time-frame. Thus their credibility has taken a hit, and the camera will "most likely" not live up to the hype it has generated (it has already had a significant price boost). This is not to say I am "anti-Kodak" - I am not. It is just that as someone reporting on this industry, I am against "vapor producxt launches" as they create nothing but confusion on the part of the consumer.

Canon and Nikon are where they are not only becuase they offer top-of-the-line products, but because they treat their customers like top-of-the-line customers and do not tend to lead them astray with wild announcements and predictions. A professional needs some certainty.

Kodak should take note.

Peter Sill
http://www.digitalfocus.net

Paul Caldwell said:

Hello Peter,

Actually I don't think Nikon has ever published specs on any of the
N 80 line up. And I don't think that Canon and Nikon share such
specs. Acutally 30K frames on any camera is pretty low.

Nikon has made a point of saying that they used a DIFFERENT shutter
on the D100, so I don't think anyone knows the actual number of
frames.

Fuji I believe did use the N80 shutter, but that is only
speculation. However there are numerous S1 users out there (using a
N65 body) with way over 30K frames.

KODAK has made it a point of saying that they aren't using the
standard N80 shutter. I have a note from Jay K, stating this. I
really don't know as anyone else whose shutter they are using,
however I have told its a "metal Blade".

As to the release and delay, I could agree more with you. Kodak
spoofed Canon, at Photokina as no one expected them to do this.
Canon on the other is now shipping the 1Ds in limited quanities to
very selected dealers. To me its a mute point as 8K I can't
justify, even if I was a Canon shooter. Kodak's 14mp for 5K is
just a better deal for me in my style of shooting. I also totally
agree that the 1Ds is hands down the better body and overall built
camera. As to the asking price, well thats the whole point of
having the only one on the block.

The only vendor who could effect Canon's price would be Nikon,
whenever they anno the follow on to the D1x series. However I
strongly believe that they will follow Canon's lead and be in the
same price point. Why not?

As to KODAK'S delay, well its only costing them $$, and in theri
current state of financial affairs, thats hurting them. I feel
that Kodak would have loved to have shipped as many 14n's as they
could in Dec, to effect their bottom line. This delay, if it
really happens, is hurting. But all the signs have been there for
some time. Kodak has yet to get the camera into anyone's hands for
review and there are no review images anywhere. I strongly believe
its not the camera but their photodesk software thats causing the
delay.
Canon on the other hand gets a perfect score, they met all their
dates and for that I commend them. I don't however commend them on
their FUD doc that has everyone so upset. In my line of work, that
is not possible and is a bet your job. This is no different that
selling a car, to bad.

Paul Caldwell
[email protected]

Click to expand...

Paul Caldwell wrote:
Hi Paul,
I liked your post but I wanted to make a couple of comments:

Paul F Caldwell said:

KODAK has made it a point of saying that they aren't using the
standard N80 shutter. I have a note from Jay K, stating this. I
really don't know as anyone else whose shutter they are using,
however I have told its a "metal Blade".

Click to expand...

In the interview on this site, Jay says the shutter is the same as that on the F80. I also read his post here about the metal blades so I think it is reasonable to assume it is the F80(N80) shutter but with a change to metal blades. Funny though, it sure looks like there are metal blades in my F80.

Paul F Caldwell said:

As to KODAK'S delay, well its only costing them $$, and in theri
current state of financial affairs, thats hurting them.

Click to expand...

Here is a quote from the interview:

"The DCS Pro 14n is planned to be available from authorized dealers of KODAK PROFESSIONAL Products at year-end 2002."
So based on that I don't think there is a delay yet.
Rick

Peter Sills said:

I have nothing against Kodak, Nikon or any other manufacturer, and
can tell you where Canon most likely got the specs on the Kodak
shutter, Nikon. It seems that Kodak has not been very forthcomming
with facts and figures with the new camera (quite common actually
before its actual release). However, my understanding is that
Kodak has not denied the number.

Click to expand...

Hi Peter,

Because I was curious, and because I own an F80, I took it upon myself to ask Nikon if the 30K number was true. Their answer was that they do not have this information...so you can take what you want from that.

Member said:

As for the camera, what you are hearing from me is a bit of my
frustration with the way Kodak is doing business. I have heard
"next week" from them since they announced the camera, for when
shots would be available, for when more information would be
available, etc.

Click to expand...

I don't know who you are dealing with, but on this forum we have direct access to the folks who make this camera and I don't remember all this "next week" stuff you are referring to. Who are you dealiing with at Kodak who is constantly telling you "next week"?
Rick

Rick Boden said:

Peter Sills said:

While I believe there is a camera coming, I also believe that there
are significant issues with it (I smell Contax). However,
regardless, this is a camera which should have been announced and
shipped at the upcomming PMA, and not at Photokina, since it is
VERY unlikely to ship before the end of the year at this point.

Click to expand...

Peter, I notice you spend most of your time on the Canon SLR forum
and come here once in a while to make a negative post about Kodak.
If you are trying to create a news site, I would suggest trying to
come out looking impartial. Considering when the Kodak was first
announced and the fact that it is not even December yet, the Contax
reference is WAY out of line.
Say, how about doing a little investigative journalism on where
Canon got their 30K MTBF figure on the 14n shutter?
Rick

Click to expand...

Canon probably got the shutter figures from Seiko...who probably makes the shutter for the N80 body.

It as all wishful thinking that Kodak will ship the 14n in a week from now with still no sample files. As far as the Contax goes seems to be a pretty good Camera except for price.....Give us the sample files Kodak!
Boris
http://public.fotki.com/borysd/

Hi Peter, Yes I agree it was sent for the dealers, being a salesman myself, I just have a personal problem when salepeple use FUD. The same document I think also goes after the AA filter, or lack of on the Kodak. Several Canon reps have been heard to say, "Kodak left it off, to save cost". This one I just Love, Personally I am praying that the AA is off, the difference it makes not having one is truly amazing. I have been able to shoot with the 660 without the AA filter and it rules the roost. I also agree with you that if Kodak slips the date then they are doing themselves a disservice, just like Contax, people are already starting to call the Kodak the next Contax, thats not good for sure.

On the Nikon side, you might have forgotten the original D1 anno. Came at Photokina but didn't appear till Sept of the next year. So Nikon was alittle slow on that, but they sure met all the rest of the dates. Kodak has also had a great track record on the 660, 620, 760, and 720x. So I agree time will tell.

Actually right now, if Kodak can pull of 14mp with no AA, I will wait, as it will rule for total detail. The balance will be just how much color aliasing they do get. However I still haven't seen anything for sure From Kodak that says there isn't a AA filter for sure on the 14n.

Rick you are also right on the shutter, as I remember Kodak went didn't make the point of saying that the shutter wasn't the base N80. Then Jay came out and said later that the N80 wasn't using the same shutter. I can't find that info post anymore, think it was on this site however.

Believe me, based on my S2, I do have some major worries about the life of the 14n. My S2, N80 has slowly fallen apart in the 4 months I have used it. Nothing really serious, just little stuff. The worst part has been the viewfinder display, mine keeps fading in and out, fading to a point you can read it. I think that stricly N80 related.

The Nikon manual under shutter specs really gives nothing, and you are right the shutter more than likely is a metal blade design. Nikon only really points out differences on the D1 and D1x. One interesing point. The old marketing spec on the F5 was 100K I believe, and Kodak warranty on the 660 was 1 year or 100K shutter operations whichever camer first. I do wonder if they will do this on the 14n? That will let the shutter question be put to bed.

As Peter pointed out the 1Ds is being made on a much better body. I have long said, I am glad I don't shoot Canon, as I would have to find a way to get one.

Paul CAldwell

First let me say that I am not defending or accusing Kodak, just passing along some food for thought...

Having written software I can understand it when a company says that there are delays due to software. There is a usual cycle of development, alpha and beta versions before the software hits the light of day. In the case of this camera since it also has firmware involved that means there are probably two cycles involved for the camera and photodesk. Also keep in mind that both the camera and photodesk must run on Windows and Mac OS.

No matter how hard Kodak worked on the camera and software, wen they start handing it out to the alpha and beta testers, bugs will be found (often more than anticipated). When I wrote code and tested it I knew how I thought the workflow was meant to be but when the user got ahold of the software they would choose to do things differently hence anything from a miscalculation to a crash.

Now if Kodak wishes to maintain their reputation they will have to make this camera and it's software as bulletproof as possible. Also consider that they may have decided to hold off posting pictures until they have a stable system so that what we get to see is what will actually be a true representation of what we will be able to achieve with the camera and software when we purchase it.

Like everyone else I am eargerly awaiting the pictures and a chance to evaluate the camera in person but I also understand the frustration of programming and testing ad nauseum...

Jim

Hi Rick,

that number can be taken from the F90, thats where the shutter is from.

But any way, this is a bad job from Kodak. Nobody can blame Sigma for the delay with there SD9 because that's there first DSLR. But Kodak should have known better. They once have been the Pioneers for DSLR's. For that reason they should know about problems that could occure. They even had a Type with a pretty big CCD. So it looks like it is all marketing cry.

Regards

H Hansen

Rick Boden said:

Peter Sills said:

While I believe there is a camera coming, I also believe that there
are significant issues with it (I smell Contax). However,
regardless, this is a camera which should have been announced and
shipped at the upcomming PMA, and not at Photokina, since it is
VERY unlikely to ship before the end of the year at this point.

Click to expand...

Peter, I notice you spend most of your time on the Canon SLR forum
and come here once in a while to make a negative post about Kodak.
If you are trying to create a news site, I would suggest trying to
come out looking impartial. Considering when the Kodak was first
announced and the fact that it is not even December yet, the Contax
reference is WAY out of line.
Say, how about doing a little investigative journalism on where
Canon got their 30K MTBF figure on the 14n shutter?
Rick

Click to expand...