I am still on the fence about purchasing an X100 and would appreciate clarification about aperture lag. Let´s say we are in manual focus with the camera zone focused using the AFL button. Can one snap away on the shutter button without significant shutter delay? I have read posts where users suggest an anticipatory half press before every shot as the camera is lifted to take into account slow movement of the aperture. Yet, other users claim that in manual focus, the aperture is "frozen" once the AFL button is used, so that rotating the aperture ring has no effect. If these bugs are true, why is the X100 considered a great street shooter in so many reviews? Is aperture lag present at all aperture settings during daylight shooting? Sorry if I am confused here, but I don´t have the camera to try these settings out.
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Aperture Lag and Street Shooting
- Thread starter ny10522
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there is really no aperture lag. Just that people don't like to focus using the centre box. Takes training.
The aperture lag comes because
a) Being contrast based focusing, once the box is in a uniform spot of color, the hunt will start. Work around by quickly hunting for a spot that is equidistance from the focus distance of the subject in question.
b) This camera is not a manual focus camera. It uses auto focus as a primary tool. Just learn to use the centre focus spot to get the focus quickly.
c) the multi focusing mode or area focusing like those in the DSLR is better for phase focus. Hence don't use it.
Street photography do need the speed, but not the speed of a sports photographer. It can be fast if one trained with it to focus fast and shutter faster.
The aperture lag comes because
a) Being contrast based focusing, once the box is in a uniform spot of color, the hunt will start. Work around by quickly hunting for a spot that is equidistance from the focus distance of the subject in question.
b) This camera is not a manual focus camera. It uses auto focus as a primary tool. Just learn to use the centre focus spot to get the focus quickly.
c) the multi focusing mode or area focusing like those in the DSLR is better for phase focus. Hence don't use it.
Street photography do need the speed, but not the speed of a sports photographer. It can be fast if one trained with it to focus fast and shutter faster.
If I am in a crowd and see a moment that I want to capture, there is not enough time to auto focus. I also take most of my shots in such environments from the chest or hip. Cameras such as the Ricoh GRD3 and Leica X1 allow one to prefocus through a "snap focus" type feature and then instantly take photos without adjusting exposure settings or worrying about shutter lag.
Can one can zone focus on the X100 via manual focus and a small focus box at a target distance and then take photos in a similar manner? Significant "aperture dance" changes after zone focusing would complicate this procedure.
Can one can zone focus on the X100 via manual focus and a small focus box at a target distance and then take photos in a similar manner? Significant "aperture dance" changes after zone focusing would complicate this procedure.
max_damage
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This is very annoying bug.
Watch this video: http://rghost.ru/12480991
Camera settings: Manual Focus / F 2.8 / S 1000 / ISO 200 / Auto ISO off
Watch this video: http://rghost.ru/12480991
Camera settings: Manual Focus / F 2.8 / S 1000 / ISO 200 / Auto ISO off
Fuji should have fixed that with the new FW update - there really is no good reason for this aperture dance
allwet
Member
If you are looking for a fast autofocusing camera for street shooting then this is NOT your camera. I enjoy taking street candids and the X100 takes too long to autofocus for me to capture my subject.
I have worked my way around this by manually focusing the camera to the hyperfocal distance I want to capture (usually 10m for street shooting), setting a large aperture and zone focusing using the AFL button. After doing this once, it is basically a set it and forget it way of street shooting until your lighting conditions change.
With this method I have had much quicker and better results, but not as good as the GRDIII snap focus.
I have worked my way around this by manually focusing the camera to the hyperfocal distance I want to capture (usually 10m for street shooting), setting a large aperture and zone focusing using the AFL button. After doing this once, it is basically a set it and forget it way of street shooting until your lighting conditions change.
With this method I have had much quicker and better results, but not as good as the GRDIII snap focus.
nand
Senior Member
In a simple experiment when pre-focusing in MF or locking focus in AF-S or zone focusing on a clock with a sweep second hand, the X100 is fast. This includes this dance that only happens in bright light.
This dance is the camera keeping the sensor from flooding with bright light by closing the aperture a bit when not actually taking a picture.
Nand.
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This dance is the camera keeping the sensor from flooding with bright light by closing the aperture a bit when not actually taking a picture.
Nand.
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The video posted by max_damage shows that aperture lag is unfortunately a real issue. The extent of lag shown in the video is typical of that experienced at higher light levels (say from about EV 13 up). At slightly lower levels (say EV 12, 11, and sometimes 10) the aperture blades go though a less complex dance, and the lag is less. From about EV 9 or 10 down, there is no aperture lag. This means that for someone who attempts to press the shutter in one movement, the total lag experienced (aperture + focus + shutter) is paradoxically minimised at EV 9 or 10, and at those light levels is very slight - all of it focus lag. Obviously focus lag on a contrast detect camera should be very much less at EV 15 than at EV 9, but aperture lag at EV 15 prevents the camera from showing just how fast it can focus.
The effect of aperture lag can be mimised by half presssing the shutter before the moment you choose to shoot. Actual shutter lag from this point is virtually zero (it should be faster than a DSLR, and as far as I can tell it is). If you have prefocused using MF, you can do this half press as you lift the camera to your eye.
I haven't heard any claims of the aperture being frozen after pressing the AEL/AFL button in MF, and certainly it isn't (at least if you use the default settings for that button - which the camera ignores in MF). That is how most people use MF in the X100. What I have heard (but haven't tested) is that that pressing the AEL/AFL button does lock the aperture if you are using AF. That is probably to be expected if you use the default settings (where the button locks focus and exposure) but unexepected, and clearly a bug, if you set the button to be an AF lock only.
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Apteryx
Gordon L
Well-known member
I love my x100, and it is my primary personal camera, but the lag is my biggest dissapointment. I've missed many shots because of it, and it is a constant source of frustration.
The only solution is to partially depress the shutter button, but this is obviously not always possible. My humble little Canon Rebel XS is always ready in an instant and never misses a shot. I'm still using the fuji most of the time. as I adore the files, love the size, viewfiinder, etc. The image quality is just so amazing, I just cannot bear shooting with anything else at the moment. I'm anxiously awaiting fuji's next generation of this camera, or a competitors version.
Depending on your shooting style, you well may hate this camera. I'd wait until you can borrow or rent one to try out for a while. If you can live with the limitations of the camera, you will be astounded at the image quality.
The only solution is to partially depress the shutter button, but this is obviously not always possible. My humble little Canon Rebel XS is always ready in an instant and never misses a shot. I'm still using the fuji most of the time. as I adore the files, love the size, viewfiinder, etc. The image quality is just so amazing, I just cannot bear shooting with anything else at the moment. I'm anxiously awaiting fuji's next generation of this camera, or a competitors version.
Depending on your shooting style, you well may hate this camera. I'd wait until you can borrow or rent one to try out for a while. If you can live with the limitations of the camera, you will be astounded at the image quality.
Jeff Charles
Veteran Member
Could the ND filter help to reduce aperture lag? The ND filter reduces the light reaching the sensor, and that appears to be what determines aperture lag.
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Jeff
My cat, who likes to sprawl on my keyboard, gets credit for anything I write that makes sense.
I've tried that - it does not seem to (at least, it does not change the point in light level at which the aperture blades start to float down from being wide open in low light, the cause of the lag). I assume that the ND filter is applied only after a half press.
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Apteryx
Photohobbyfun
Senior Member
So is this aperture dance at higher light levels an actual bug or just an unfortunate design choice?
I've also heard that Fuji has done this so that you can maintain a proper live view. For those who use the OVF though, maybe they can add a feature to stop this aperture dance since live view won't matter for them. Or would that ruin the histogram display?
I've also heard that Fuji has done this so that you can maintain a proper live view. For those who use the OVF though, maybe they can add a feature to stop this aperture dance since live view won't matter for them. Or would that ruin the histogram display?
The apeture dance bug / "bright light aperture bug" is not about slowish AF - its about having preset the camera like you describe, still when you press the shutter aperture blades will perform some sort of absurd closing/opening before it is ready to take the picture. You can observe it mostly in bright light and only by looking at the apeture blades thru the lens front (or feeling the lag, before the picture is taken).
I would call it a bug and a rather nasty one. A disable crazy dance option could at the very least be put in the menu, right next to the parallex corrected AF area option. I dont care what nifty histogram, LCD or EVF features it takes down with it in the process - as long as I can have instant shutter operation.
After the first honneymoon weeks with the X100, this is one of the annoyances that really starts to call me back to my always instant and predictable D700. Even if it weights several times as much.
michelangelocowabunga
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Maybe someone should ask the Fuji Guys for confirmation? Although it's questionable whether they would answer, we could at least try.
Max, would it be okay to give the following link http://rghost.ru/12480991 to the fuji guys so they know what I'm asking them?
Max, would it be okay to give the following link http://rghost.ru/12480991 to the fuji guys so they know what I'm asking them?
Fujironimo
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I also saw this dance of the aperture blades, but I don't really feel it adds to the lag. If I use the half-press method, the camera is fast, whatever the light.
I would be great to put numbers on the different kinds of lag. I tried to shoot a chronometer, but it's hardly accurate (I have my own brain lag !).
I would be great to put numbers on the different kinds of lag. I tried to shoot a chronometer, but it's hardly accurate (I have my own brain lag !).
I'm still waiting for my X100 to arrive, but this talk makes me worried.
I wanted something small but responsive for street photography.
I used to use my Canon G10 in MF pre-focussed and found it sluggish (hence the reason to upgrade). now I know why. I looked at it in bright light and it does exactly the same aperture dance, (of course the aperture is miniature, compared to x100). So if another manufacturer uses the same "feature" it probably has a purpose, and protecting the sensor form too much light is, I think, the most likely reason.
The work around with half pressed shutter seems to work also on my G10, just that it is not the most relaxing way of roaming the streets.
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http://www.photocay.com
I wanted something small but responsive for street photography.
I used to use my Canon G10 in MF pre-focussed and found it sluggish (hence the reason to upgrade). now I know why. I looked at it in bright light and it does exactly the same aperture dance, (of course the aperture is miniature, compared to x100). So if another manufacturer uses the same "feature" it probably has a purpose, and protecting the sensor form too much light is, I think, the most likely reason.
The work around with half pressed shutter seems to work also on my G10, just that it is not the most relaxing way of roaming the streets.
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http://www.photocay.com
max_damage
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Would be nice if someone post this video on YouTube and sent it to FujiGuys, because my english is very poor..
Fujironimo
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Frankly speaking, if I use MF mode and prefocus (or AF mode and lock with AFL), then I don't feel a big difference in speed between full-press shooting, and half-press shooting.
To me the discussion is a bit academic since the "brain lag" you need to
1) "detect" the scene to shoot
2) put the camera to your eye
3) frame
4) shoot
is much larger than the pure camera lag (if prefocused).
But I have to add that in contrast to some people here, I am very far to be an expert in street photography.
While answering a question on the X100 aperture size and shape thread, I shone a bright torch into the lens and noticed something very odd, that I had never noticed in daylight.
The torch, if held at the right angle and close enough, was bright enough to make the aperture blades float down, just as they do in sunlight. The blades looked very reflective and silvery, perhaps even more so than they do in daylight. But when I half pressed the shutter, the blades appeared to change colour, becoming almost black, very hard to see. That is not how they look in the very different colour temperature of daylight.
It occured to me that the famous dance of the aperture blades may in fact be a pas de deux. There may be two apertures, two sets of aperture blades, one on top of the other. One being the actual photographic aperture, that we can see after a half press of the shutter. The other, probably on top (although if there are two they are so close together it is difficult to say which is closer) simply serving some protective function, perhaps protecting the microlenses on the sensor from having the sun continously focused on them by the magnifying glass that is the camera lens.
If that is the case, then aperture lag is simply the result of the protective aperture blades failing to just get straight out of the way when the shutter is pressed, as they are no doubt supposed to do. There may be a little lag introduced just by the time it takes them to get out of the way, but if Fuji can get them to stop doing their stupid dance, this lag could be greatly reduced.
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Apteryx
The torch, if held at the right angle and close enough, was bright enough to make the aperture blades float down, just as they do in sunlight. The blades looked very reflective and silvery, perhaps even more so than they do in daylight. But when I half pressed the shutter, the blades appeared to change colour, becoming almost black, very hard to see. That is not how they look in the very different colour temperature of daylight.
It occured to me that the famous dance of the aperture blades may in fact be a pas de deux. There may be two apertures, two sets of aperture blades, one on top of the other. One being the actual photographic aperture, that we can see after a half press of the shutter. The other, probably on top (although if there are two they are so close together it is difficult to say which is closer) simply serving some protective function, perhaps protecting the microlenses on the sensor from having the sun continously focused on them by the magnifying glass that is the camera lens.
If that is the case, then aperture lag is simply the result of the protective aperture blades failing to just get straight out of the way when the shutter is pressed, as they are no doubt supposed to do. There may be a little lag introduced just by the time it takes them to get out of the way, but if Fuji can get them to stop doing their stupid dance, this lag could be greatly reduced.
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Apteryx
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