Open question to DPR re Sony NEX.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Najinsky
  • Start date Start date
GO to the Imaging Resources web site, Look up the Imatest results and compare the dynamic range of the SONY NEX 5 to the K5. The K5 is alomost a whole stop better. INdeed the K5 is hightest ranked camera in terms of dynamic range. That makes two leading test sites that rank the k5 above the NEX.
I would post the link but I think DP would block it.
You're again comparing different generations of sensors and their imatest results in RAW say the NEX5 shows similar DR at medium or low quality.
As far as fitting in your pocket, I would like to meet your tailor. The NEX would have difficulty fitting in my pocket with a kit lens.
But the K-5 will never come close. There are pockets and there are pockets ofcourse but even the largest jacket pockets will not fit a K-5 plus lens.
Guys, the NEX is small for a dSLR but it is NOT compact unless you mount a Pancake.
That's like saying my FZ18 P&S isn't compact. For me it and many others it is, for others it maybe isn't. And a NEX is small with 3rd party lenses too:

 
A picture is worth a thousand words but talk is cheap.
So why don't you post side-by-side pics from IR of Nex-C3 and K-5 and demonstrate how K-5 is better at high ISO?

I can't see any practical difference in jpegs

ISO 12800 C3, left, K-5, right

 
GO to the Imaging Resources web site, Look up the Imatest results and compare the dynamic range of the SONY NEX 5 to the K5. The K5 is alomost a whole stop better. INdeed the K5 is hightest ranked camera in terms of dynamic range. That makes two leading test sites that rank the k5 above the NEX.
Neither dxo nor IR has tested Nex-C3 that was announced only a few days ago. Nex-5 is older camera with 14 MP sensor.

C3 would be somewhere close to A580

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/AA580/AA580DYRA.HTM

or probably better than A580 since Sony claims the sensor was redesigned.
 
Why on earth would there even be a difference between the K-5 and Sony C3? Both use the same sensor, and even though the Sony iteration in the A580 wasn't as optimized for high-ISO performance as the one in the K-5 and D7000, it's still very, very close.

And the sensor in the C3 should be optimized for low noise.
A picture is worth a thousand words but talk is cheap.
So why don't you post side-by-side pics from IR of Nex-C3 and K-5 and demonstrate how K-5 is better at high ISO?

I can't see any practical difference in jpegs
 
Why on earth would there even be a difference between the K-5 and Sony C3? Both use the same sensor, and even though the Sony iteration in the A580 wasn't as optimized for high-ISO performance as the one in the K-5 and D7000, it's still very, very close.
I was responding to yesman12 who claims "big difference". All the dxo numbers and RAW NR aside, there is no practical difference between any of the cameras that use the 16 MP sensor (K-5, D7000, A580, D5100, C3).
 
As per usual with Sony the A580 uses a thicker CFA than both the K-5 and D7000. This leads to higher color accuracy ("metamerism index" under the "Color Response" tab) while sacrificing dynamic range and high-ISO performance. This is at least in part also the reason why the D3x has higher DR and better high-ISO than the A900.

I'd assume that Sonys talks about improving the noise performance of the C3 means that they're also going to go with a thinner CFA this time around.
Why on earth would there even be a difference between the K-5 and Sony C3? Both use the same sensor, and even though the Sony iteration in the A580 wasn't as optimized for high-ISO performance as the one in the K-5 and D7000, it's still very, very close.
I was responding to yesman12 who claims "big difference". All the dxo numbers and RAW NR aside, there is no practical difference between any of the cameras that use the 16 MP sensor (K-5, D7000, A580, D5100, C3).
 
To all who responded the NEX v K5 comparision

I will grant you that the senor comparions to the latest camera, the C3, cannot be done given that the offical testing of the C3 has yet to occur. I will also conceed to one of the posts that the practical difference between the C3 and K5 may be very small (perhaps because the are the same sensor).

However, My main point is that the C3 is really not compact enough for many to give up the advantages of a SLR, that being
  • A viewfinder
  • a built in flash
  • Good direct controls.
And it really does not fit in a pocket with a kit zoom, unless you are a kangeroo.
--
A picture is worth a thousand words but talk is cheap.
Best regards
Nick
 
Here's part of the problem, as I see it: you are stating your opinion, based mostly on what you feel like you'd want, and your entire perspective coming from how you would use a camera, what you'd need on a camera, and considering a camera like the NEX as a replacement for your current setup. Others who are counteratguing with you are stating their opinions, based on what they feel they want, and their perspectives coming partially from hand-on use of the NEX cameras, what they need from a camera, and possibly looking at the camera with different goals from your own. Let me elaborate with some of your past points:
However, My main point is that the C3 is really not compact enough for many to give up the advantages of a SLR
Right there, you already have to accept that part of your crowd has already been left out of the argument - many owners of mirrorless cameras did NOT choose these cameras to give up DSLRs, rather to complement them. As a second body, with equal image quality and low light capabilities, but in a smaller, lighter, more portable package. There are quite a few users of such cameras who continue to be firm supporters and users of DSLRs.
, that being
  • A viewfinder
This is a two-fold counterpoint - 1. some folks feel they need viewfinders, others don't - depending on what they are shooting, and how, a viewfinder might not actually be needed. I'm with you in very much requiring a viewfinder for a vast majority of my shooting, but that brings me to: 2. some folks can accept the lack of a viewfinder in this class of camera because they have DSLRs with viewfinders for when those are needed - the mirrorless camera serves a secondary purpose, and can function very well without the viewfinder. The NEX in particular shines in this case because of the excellent high-res LCD with tilting ability.
  • a built in flash
Again, your own needs here - point in fact, I have never used my NEX with a flash...ever. Likelihood is, I never will. On my DSLR, on the other hand, I have a powerful and flexible hotshoe flash with wireless control, and flash is something I'll use extensively during certain shooting. Not to mention the second point - that the NEX technically does have a 'built-in flash' - it attaches firmly to the top of the camera and can stay there indefinitely, fully controlled and triggered by the camera much like a flimsy onboard flash would...it just has the extra bonus option of being removable for those who don't feel they need it. It's all in how you look at it.
  • Good direct controls.
1) User interface (lack of direct controls) poor on NEX
You've mentioned it several times, as have many others. Virtually to a man, everyone who mentions this either A. never used or touched a NEX, or B. based it on a first contact with a NEX when first released. Because the direct controls are actually NOT poor, or lacking - in fact, are very much the equal of pretty much any mirrorless camera, or as close as can be insignificant. I'm not sure which controls you consider crucial to have direct access to, however on my NEX, with firmware 3 added, I have the following controls available through exterior buttons on the camera body, without menu diving:

Aperture control
Shutter control
ISO
EV
White Balance
Drive mode
Focus area
DRO/HDR

Each of these is a direct access button, with a simple jog wheel for adjustments, and the camera is always shoot-priority so a half-press shutter returns it to shooting mode and locks in changes without having to acknowledge or 'OK' anything.

Other functions can be accessed through the menu easily enough if needed - things like stabilization on/off, AF/MF switching, high ISO NR, etc. But those generally are lesser used functions, and I dare say on many DSLRs those would be relegated to menu diving, with exception of the focus switching. Considering the astounding streamlining and compacting of the NEX camera body, it is surprisingly nearly as controllable directly as most basic DSLRs...though many who prejudged it, based opinions on early reviews, hold biases, or haven't ever actually tried one still like to repeat the common refrain that the controls are sparse or poor.
And it really does not fit in a pocket with a kit zoom, unless you are a kangeroo.
My only counter to this point is that I'd argue something's definition of 'compactness' does not have to be qualified by the ability to fit in a pocket - compact simply means smaller than a full size version of same - the mirrorless cameras are all significantly smaller and lighter, even with large lenses attached, than their DSLR relatives, pocket or not.

5) Bulit in flash is useful. If you add all the attachments to the NEX (viewfinder, flash), you end up with a SLR size.

That's not true at all - I routinely carry my NEX3 with 18-55mm kit lens and flash attached. It sits in less than half the overall footprint of my DSLR with kit lens, sitting nearly half as high, 2/3 the width, 2/3 the length, and significantly less weight and volume (remember that the width and length may be about 2/3 as much at the longest or deepest point, but only a very small portion of the camera occupies this point - much of the bulk has been trimmed all around the remaining width and length). It is infinitely more portable, even though not pocketable - I can hang it comfortably around my neck for hours with no strain or pain, and I can slip the camera onto a dinner table between a bread basket and a salt shaker discreetly, or stick it in the cupholder of my car's center console - all of which I would not be able to do with a DSLR. It's all relative - if you are expecting the NEX to compare to a slimline pocket cam, it will seem huge. If you are expecting to compare it to a DSLR, it is indeed smaller and lighter.

--
Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg
 
However, My main point is that the C3 is really not compact enough for many to give up the advantages of a SLR, that being
  • A viewfinder
  • a built in flash
  • Good direct controls.
And it really does not fit in a pocket with a kit zoom, unless you are a kangeroo.
--
A picture is worth a thousand words but talk is cheap.
Best regards
Nick
Yeah, well that's just like, your opinion, man.

You might not think the tradeoff is worth it. Is it incomprehensible to you that others might?

My opnion is, I don't care for a viewfinder, I don't care for a flash, the controls are good enough for me.

It does fit in a lot more places than an SLR doesn't. For example in my girlfriends bag, in my own bag that was already stuffed to the brim with towels and clothes for a beach trip, in my coat pocket with the kit, in my skiing jacket with the 16mm, in my wind breaker jacket with the 40mm Nokton, in my shorts with the 16mm (while biking even), on my back using the strap squeezed between me and my girlfriend while renting a scooter on a vacation, on a restaurant's smallish dinner table.

There is a space of utility between pocketable and non-pocketable.
 
i haven't used flash in 10 years or so.

There may be many people like me, who want to do available light photography.

--
::> I make spelling mistakes. May Dog forgive me for this.
 
However, My main point is that the C3 is really not compact enough for many to give up the advantages of a SLR, that being
  • A viewfinder
  • a built in flash
  • Good direct controls.
You realize a lot of people don't buy it as a replacement but as an add on for lighter and/or smaller traveling when speed and such is less important?
And it really does not fit in a pocket with a kit zoom, unless you are a kangeroo.
This jacket looks nothing like a kangeroo, isn't an exception and fits a NEX plus atleast the 18-55 kitlens attached. Let alone many of the 3rd party ones, the pancake, or the announced macro.



That's all based on experience rather than false assumptions.
 
A general response to Zackiedawg,masterbrew and ohters..

I think I said that Many would be put off by the lack of certain capabilities on the NEX system. It is obveous many others are buying the camera and find that the size matters. Nothing inconsistent with the response. I fall into the camp of wanting these things and there are others as well (ergo the OP).

As far as a second system put in your pocket camera, Why not buy an advanced P&S like the Canon G12, Panaonsonic LX5 etc.
--
A picture is worth a thousand words but talk is cheap.
Best regards
Nick
 
A general response to Zackiedawg,masterbrew and ohters..

I think I said that Many would be put off by the lack of certain capabilities on the NEX system. It is obveous many others are buying the camera and find that the size matters. Nothing inconsistent with the response. I fall into the camp of wanting these things and there are others as well (ergo the OP).
And wonder why there aren't more like you. It's like wondering why so many like the colour blue when you don't.
As far as a second system put in your pocket camera, Why not buy an advanced P&S like the Canon G12, Panaonsonic LX5 etc.
Because it does things neither one of those does or does as well. It's as simple as that.
 
As far as a second system put in your pocket camera, Why not buy an advanced P&S like the Canon G12, Panaonsonic LX5 etc.
Well I agree as far as the idea of a second 'put in your pocket' camera that one should be looking at slim P&S bodies - the LX5 is chunky but could wedge into a generous pocket...the G12 though I wouldn't consider a pocketable camera by most definitions. I'd say if you were looking for a truly pocketable camera and wanted to get the most control and capability possible in that form factor, then you should consider the LX5 or S95, or something in that ilk. Certainly not the mirrorless cameras unless you were going to stick with a pancake fixed lens and never change (which some might actually do...it would make it similar to the X100 in that vein).

For me, I keep an ultracompact camera that is well and truly pocketable - even in a tight jeans pocket - when I want full 100% portability, fully accepting that it won't come close to the performance of the NEX or a DSLR. I keep those 3 classes of camera to suit all possible needs, and it works well for me...I even prefer the slimmer tiny-sensor ultracompact to something like the LX5, which though better in control or quality is also considerably larger, heavier, and bulkier, and therefore not as good at resting discreetly in a pocket. It's all about compromise, no matter which camera you get - from the top full-frame DSLR to the slimmest pocket cam - it's always compromise - you just have to decide which compromises are worth making.

--
Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg
 
Thank you for intellegent responses , in contrast to some others who resort to purile attacks such as "I dont care what you think, this is what I think"
--
A picture is worth a thousand words but talk is cheap.
Best regards
Nick
 
Here's the m43 equivalent lens(Panasonic 14-140) next to the Sony 18-200, not much difference.

http://photofan.jp/camera/html/uploads/photos/2378.jpg
And Sony 18-200 was designed for the camcorder line (VG10, FS100). It has OS with "active mode" that comes with Sony's other camcorder line.
I'm so sorry to have to wake you up from your dream. The Pana 14-140 was made with video in mind too, it has OIS and constant variable aperture (not so the Sony).

And any way you measure the Panasonic lens is noticably smaller that the Sony 18-200.

--
Digifan
 
The m43 sensor also only gathers half as much light in total with the Panasonic compared to a APS-C sensor with the Sony. For it to be as close to equivalent as possible the Panasonic would need to be one stop faster.
Here's the m43 equivalent lens(Panasonic 14-140) next to the Sony 18-200, not much difference.

http://photofan.jp/camera/html/uploads/photos/2378.jpg
And Sony 18-200 was designed for the camcorder line (VG10, FS100). It has OS with "active mode" that comes with Sony's other camcorder line.
I'm so sorry to have to wake you up from your dream. The Pana 14-140 was made with video in mind too, it has OIS and constant variable aperture (not so the Sony).

And any way you measure the Panasonic lens is noticably smaller that the Sony 18-200.

--
Digifan
 
Here's the m43 equivalent lens(Panasonic 14-140) next to the Sony 18-200, not much difference.

http://photofan.jp/camera/html/uploads/photos/2378.jpg
And Sony 18-200 was designed for the camcorder line (VG10, FS100). It has OS with "active mode" that comes with Sony's other camcorder line.
I'm so sorry to have to wake you up from your dream. The Pana 14-140 was made with video in mind too, it has OIS and constant variable aperture (not so the Sony).

And any way you measure the Panasonic lens is noticably smaller that the Sony 18-200.
your noticeably smaller has no use. Can you mount that lense on m43 camera and put it into your pocket. If NOT then it is not noticeably smaller because you can not put NEX and that lense into pocket too. 5 mm up or down has no meaning if you have to hold that into your hand rather than carrying it into your pocket.

So conclusion is that you have to carry that camera plus lense in a bag or hand just like NEX one and you lose on image quality too . That shows how smart was your buy.

--
::> I make spelling mistakes. May Dog forgive me for this.
 
you are right. having had the nex 3 and 5 the minute i had the 18-55 lens on them it was overkill and they looked rediculous. i now have the hx5v which i feel is a better value for me with the longer zoom in a way smaller package. r
Does this look compact to you?



Your preview uses the term compact dozens of time like in the comment below that image:

"The NEX-C3 is certainly small but still fits pretty well in the hand (though, like most compact cameras, its controls aren't easily accessible while in the shooting grip). As soon as you add a lens, such as the 18-55mm kit zoom pictured here, the size starts to creep up."

'starts to creep up' !!! It looks to me like it more than triples in volume!

One of us is blind, and I think it must be me because I can't see the compact camera you used to shoot your preview samples.

-Najinsky
 
Ultimately, though, I'm confused by your argument. You acknowledge that we've illustrated the piece using pictures of the not-very-compact kit zoom (along with text explaining we've done so because it's the most practical combination for the target market and that it makes the overall package bigger), then say we haven't made its size clear. How much clearer need it be?
Thanks for the reply. I recently read the GF3 preview and had a much better response to that preview than I did the C3. I think the wording for the lens/size references reads extremely well. I went to the GF3 preview from a direct link to the preview.

I think my bad response to the C3 preview was, mostly, having got to it via the news section in which it was 'announced and previewed'. With the press announcement headed "Sony Introduces World's Smallest, Lightest Interchangeable Lens Camera with APS-C Sized Sensor" and with parts of that announcement written in editorial review style, like "The NEX-C3 features an attractive new body design that combines a satisfyingly solid metal top casing with an easy-to-use streamlined grip shape. Reducing the size of its internal circuitry visibly shrinks the camera’s size and achieves a body weight of just 225g" and "Building on the success of last year’s α NEX launch, the new NEX-C3 model takes the idea of ‘small camera body, SLR-quality photos’ to a whole new level".

But at the end of the preview, the samples are from the bigger lenses. It was this combination of multiple uses of "Smallest, Lightest" in headlines and references, but then backed by larger camera samples for the actual photographs, that I found to be unbalanced.

To use simple (indisputable?) cold facts to clarify:

1. C3 is a camera body and doesn't become a picture taking camera until it gets a lens.

2. Sony's headline claim to "World's Smallest, Lightest Interchangeable Lens Camera with APS-C Sized Sensor" comes by virtue of the Sony 16mm pancake lens.

3. C3 with 18-55mm/30mm lens is not the "Worlds Smallest Lightest Interchangeable Lens Camera with APS-C Sized Sensor".

4. Your preview samples that accompany the "Worlds Smallest Lightest Interchangeable Lens Camera with APS-C Sized Sensor" headline are taken with 18-55mm/30mm lens. See point 3.

I know that you guys must sometimes feel that no matter what you do, somebody always complains. And I'm sorry that on this occasion it was me. But it wasn't an exercise in semantics, and wasn't intended to be argumentative, it was feedback about what I saw as lack of balance, given in a style that I hoped could be taken as jovial. Posting styles form part of a forums character.

You guys do a great job, and I appreciate your efforts. And if my style of feedback isn't welcome, I'll try not to give it.

-Najinsky
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top