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What? No microadjustment for the 60D?

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If 60D is a successor to the 50D, then lacking a feature the previous model had is definitely a downgrade. No matter if people use that feature or not.

MA is not the feature which differentiates the 60D from the 7D.
Phil Hill said:
Howard said:
I realized that the 60D does not have MA which is available on my 50D. Isn't this a downgrade from the 50D?
Click to expand...
Not a downgrade, just a missing feature that the majority of DSLR owners don’t use even when present. At least four of Canon’s current models lack this feature, and I’m pretty sure those models (combined) make up the majority of Canon’s DSLR sales. By the way, Canon has never offered MA on any but the top model in the APS-C lines, so this is far from a new or unique situation.

Personally, I appreciate being able to MA my cameras and I don’t think I’d want to give that up. However, MA is just one of several features that I’d weight heavily when making a purchasing decision. It wouldn’t necessarily be a deal-killer if it’s missing, but I’d need a compelling reason to purchase such a camera over a model that does have MA.
Click to expand...
--
Christakis

http://blog.christakisphoto.com/
(Updated every Monday, Wednesday and Friday)
 
Zee Char said:
Each to his own. I visited Australia. Wonderful county.
Click to expand...
As is yours Zee :-)

Canon Australia, fast service and the word wonderful, however, are rarely all seen together in the same sentence ;-)
 
bronxbombers said:
oh come on, a few dozens of bytes costs nothing these days
Click to expand...
Yes, you are right. And jpr is probably is too. :-)

The only point I was trying to make is that it is a bit of an assumption to think that adding some memory to a DSLR is "trivial". It may be a feeble point I guess, but it is also a fact that you can't just add bytes - you need to add chips with a chunk on them - and it is a possibility that adding another memory chip to the design, or using a higher capacity chip in place of the one they chose, could have introduced it's onw issues or added some cost to each unit.

Or, it could be, as rumoured here elsewhere, that it was purely a marketing decision and had no other impact. And, yes, that's equally likely. :-)
 
schmegg said:
The only point I was trying to make is that it is a bit of an assumption to think that adding some memory to a DSLR is "trivial". It may be a feeble point I guess, but it is also a fact that you can't just add bytes - you need to add chips with a chunk on them - and it is a possibility that adding another memory chip to the design, or using a higher capacity chip in place of the one they chose, could have introduced it's onw issues or added some cost to each unit.
Click to expand...
this scenario of supposed "impossibility" might [just might] be a
potential problem for an ex post providing the MFA capability
as an add-on in FW - but only IF the FW chip is already almost filled
close to capacity. However, I believe you're arguing the eventual
"design stage" scenario - at which a decision whether to use 12Mb
or 16Mb chip to host the FW was made. Nothing was impossible
at that stage :), and a slightly bigger chip would host FW with ease.
schmegg said:
Or, it could be, as rumoured here elsewhere, that it was purely a marketing decision and had no other impact. And, yes, that's equally likely. :-)
Click to expand...
equally ?? how so?

and one more thing - it is not so that FW for 60d is a complete
mystery as to its memory use and requirements - just check the
MagicLantern site :D,

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
schmegg said:
bronxbombers said:
oh come on, a few dozens of bytes costs nothing these days
Click to expand...
Yes, you are right. And jpr is probably is too. :-)

The only point I was trying to make is that it is a bit of an assumption to think that adding some memory to a DSLR is "trivial". It may be a feeble point I guess, but it is also a fact that you can't just add bytes - you need to add chips with a chunk on them - and it is a possibility that adding another memory chip to the design, or using a higher capacity chip in place of the one they chose, could have introduced it's onw issues or added some cost to each unit.

Or, it could be, as rumoured here elsewhere, that it was purely a marketing decision and had no other impact. And, yes, that's equally likely. :-)
Click to expand...
far more likely the latter :)

there is not much chance they'd push firmware to the limit of boundary since they always fiddle with them and change things and this sort of memory is just so inexpensive it really doesn't make sense to play games like that, i saw zero chance
 
Zee Char said:
bronxbombers said:
Zee Char said:
schmegg said:
Rich Dykmans said:
If you have a lens that needs it get a 7D or send it in and get it done right.
Click to expand...
No thanks!

I have lenses that need it. I'll do it myself (only takes a short while) and not be without my camera and/or lens/es for any time at all.

If you lived in Australia, believe me, you wouldn't be rushing to send your gear to Canon without very good reason - because you'll be without it for a month or probably more if you do!
Click to expand...
Each to his own. I visited Australia. Wonderful county.
Click to expand...
So you wouldn't mind getting a 300 2.8 or 400 2.8 for the soccer/rugby seasons and then having to send it away for adjustment and missing half the season?? When you could done it yourself in 5 minutes??
Click to expand...
I don't live in Australia and as I said - each to his own. I tried with my 100 Macro and I got different results at different focal lengths.
Click to expand...
well if you got different results at different focal lengths with your prime lens then you may have more serious concerns to contend with haha ;)
 
jpr2 said:
schmegg said:
The only point I was trying to make is that it is a bit of an assumption to think that adding some memory to a DSLR is "trivial". It may be a feeble point I guess, but it is also a fact that you can't just add bytes - you need to add chips with a chunk on them - and it is a possibility that adding another memory chip to the design, or using a higher capacity chip in place of the one they chose, could have introduced it's onw issues or added some cost to each unit.
Click to expand...
this scenario of supposed "impossibility" might [just might] be a
potential problem for an ex post providing the MFA capability
as an add-on in FW - but only IF the FW chip is already almost filled
close to capacity. However, I believe you're arguing the eventual
"design stage" scenario - at which a decision whether to use 12Mb
or 16Mb chip to host the FW was made. Nothing was impossible
at that stage :), and a slightly bigger chip would host FW with ease.
Click to expand...
Yep - I agree. I'm really not trying to have an argument about this, because it's all speculation anyway :-)

I'd expect the cost, even if this was the case, to be fairly minimal. (but it would be a cost nonetheless).
jpr2 said:
jpr2 said:
Or, it could be, as rumoured here elsewhere, that it was purely a marketing decision and had no other impact. And, yes, that's equally likely. :-)
Click to expand...
equally ?? how so?
Click to expand...
Because none of us know all the facts, so any possibility should be treated as roughly equally plausible IMHO.

You are free to think otherwise though - as you do :-)
jpr2 said:
and one more thing - it is not so that FW for 60d is a complete
mystery as to its memory use and requirements - just check the
MagicLantern site :D,
Click to expand...
But Canons internal requirements as to the amount of used vs free memory at design freeze is definitely unknown ;-)

BTW - my Ec-A focussing screen is awaiting collection at the post office - I'll probably fit it this weekend with a bit of luck. Thanks for your help jpr2 :-)
 
Christakis said:
If 60D is a successor to the 50D, then lacking a feature the previous model had is definitely a downgrade. No matter if people use that feature or not.
Click to expand...
I see. So if they were to leave off the print button, would that also be a downgrade? Lack of any single feature results in a downgraded model, without regard to the improvements?

My definition of a downgrade would be if Canon removed more features than they added/improved, not removing a single feature.

The 60D has video, improved sensor, swivel LCD, upgraded AF, wireless flash control and other legitimate upgrades. It retains the rugged chassis and some level of weather sealing, but replaces the outer shell with polycarbonate and lacks both a PC socket and MA capability. Adding all that up, I don’t get “downgrade” as a conclusion.

In reality, the 7D, not the 60D, replaced the 50D as top model in the APS-C line. Canon has never offered MA in any but the top model of APS-C. At one time the 50D was the top APS-C model, but the 60D has never been.

However, we're really only talking about the meaning of a word here and I'm probably being to picky. I get that many would like to have the MA feature at a price closer to the the 50D than the 7D. But the 60D and 7D both seem to be selling well, so i'm not convinced that Canon made the wrong choice from their standpoint.
 
Oh yes, I agree. One can't say the 50D is better than the 60D, that's a lie. But de-valuing the standard of the xxD series by removing a feature on purpose, just to squeeze more money out of people who appreciate the MA is very greedy of them. That's no fair play.
Phil Hill said:
Christakis said:
If 60D is a successor to the 50D, then lacking a feature the previous model had is definitely a downgrade. No matter if people use that feature or not.
Click to expand...
I see. So if they were to leave off the print button, would that also be a downgrade? Lack of any single feature results in a downgraded model, without regard to the improvements?

My definition of a downgrade would be if Canon removed more features than they added/improved, not removing a single feature.

The 60D has video, improved sensor, swivel LCD, upgraded AF, wireless flash control and other legitimate upgrades. It retains the rugged chassis and some level of weather sealing, but replaces the outer shell with polycarbonate and lacks both a PC socket and MA capability. Adding all that up, I don’t get “downgrade” as a conclusion.

In reality, the 7D, not the 60D, replaced the 50D as top model in the APS-C line. Canon has never offered MA in any but the top model of APS-C. At one time the 50D was the top APS-C model, but the 60D has never been.

However, we're really only talking about the meaning of a word here and I'm probably being to picky. I get that many would like to have the MA feature at a price closer to the the 50D than the 7D. But the 60D and 7D both seem to be selling well, so i'm not convinced that Canon made the wrong choice from their standpoint.
Click to expand...
--
Christakis

http://blog.christakisphoto.com/
(Updated every Monday, Wednesday and Friday)
 
Makes sense that MA is a "pro" feature, not needed on any but the highest pro model of the series. It is really only useful on prime lenses, which are mostly pro territory. It is really only a quick-fix which allows the photog to finish the assignment with the lens before sending it in for repair.

In the hands of amateurs with their zoom lenses and not knowing how to use it, MA is just a source of headaches for both the users and Canon techs.
 
Christakis said:
But de-valuing the standard of the xxD series by removing a feature on purpose, just to squeeze more money out of people who appreciate the MA is very greedy of them. That's no fair play.
Click to expand...
In my first post I was only saying that I disagreed when OP called the 60D a downgrade from the 50D. Then I went on to say that I’d not likely purchase a DSLR without MA, so I’m certainly not saying that I fully agree with Canon’s decision.

On the other hand, there’s probably something about every model that somebody won’t like. I don’t think that makes Canon greedy, it’s just business. Without a profitable business Canon cannot continue to innovate. If they make a poor business decision, people will stop buying. So, if the 70D has MA then we can say that Canon got the message. But if the 70D doesn’t have MA then perhaps some critics are overestimating the value of this single feature.

By the way, I believe Canon devalued the xxD series when they introduced the 7D, not with the introduction of the 60D. The 7D was everything that people expected from the 60D at that time. Having already done this, there was no way the 60D was going to match the 7D feature-for-feature.
 
Well I never said the 60D was a junk digital, I did make a point to say it wasn't, I have my older 400D XTi and it was a great digital and took high IQ images.

I got the 50D because I got it for $1000 just before the 60D hit the market, I must say the 50D fit all my needs and then some, I have many CF cards.

I love the built and how the body fits my hands, I don't need video at all, also the noise problem many had was gone after using the right raw converter software, I used canons DPP to open them, and no noise problems anymore.

But you are right some pro's use rebels even because they have great IQ, what I have noticed is that my 50D has rised my keeper rate, and got shots I could not of got with my 400D at all.

I could of got a 7D but that was not worth the added $700 cost at the time, the 50D is almost at the same level with the 7D, and is a great upgraded replacement, after all things taking into account.

--
My psig photos at photosig http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=169695
 
tomlang said:
Makes sense that MA is a "pro" feature, not needed on any but the highest pro model of the series. It is really only useful on prime lenses, which are mostly pro territory. It is really only a quick-fix which allows the photog to finish the assignment with the lens before sending it in for repair.

In the hands of amateurs with their zoom lenses and not knowing how to use it, MA is just a source of headaches for both the users and Canon techs.
Click to expand...
really? funny because I sure could've used it on my 20D and I know plenty of Rebel users who could've used it as well
 
schmegg said:
I have lenses that need it. I'll do it myself (only takes a short while) and not be without my camera and/or lens/es for any time at all.

If you lived in Australia, believe me, you wouldn't be rushing to send your gear to Canon without very good reason - because you'll be without it for a month or probably more if you do!
Click to expand...
if you'll look how it does[not] work worldwide, the situation in AU
might still place it among the fortunate few - there are countries
with not a single service unit, turnaround times are dismal, to say
nothing about a hassle of custom duties (and obtaining a waiver), etc,
and this does not even touch issues of incompetence and problems
of communication and information exchange - the list can go on
and on :(

And of course when your warranty is over costs are substantial,

jpr2
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
jpr2 said:
schmegg said:
I have lenses that need it. I'll do it myself (only takes a short while) and not be without my camera and/or lens/es for any time at all.

If you lived in Australia, believe me, you wouldn't be rushing to send your gear to Canon without very good reason - because you'll be without it for a month or probably more if you do!
Click to expand...
if you'll look how it does[not] work worldwide, the situation in AU
might still place it among the fortunate few - there are countries
with not a single service unit, turnaround times are dismal, to say
nothing about a hassle of custom duties (and obtaining a waiver), etc,
and this does not even touch issues of incompetence and problems
of communication and information exchange - the list can go on
and on :(

And of course when your warranty is over costs are substantial,

jpr2
--
Click to expand...
one trick with the costs is that if you have a new body under warranty still and send it in with lenses that are out of warranty they calibrate all of it for free
 
With your bad experiences, combined with your specific photographic needs (sports photography) I can certainly understand your frustrations and see why MFA is so important for you.

I guess I had more luck with a very cooperative service centre (I have a really good relationship with them and know some of the technicians personally, which helps a lot). Furthermore my type of photography has other demands (landscape, architecture, portraits). I only use usm lenses with manual override combined with special focusing screens to make manual focusing easier (I come from the time that there actually was no AF), all to be able to make tiny adjustments in focus relatively rapid (of course not fast enough for action photography). I am glad I have had to learn to work with manual focus, because I have also learned over time, working with different brands of cameras, that there is no such thing as perfect AF (with 100% hit rate) for all purposes and situations. With or without MFA.

But then again, in your situation I would probably think and do the same.

Happy shooting
 
bronxbombers said:
jpr2 said:
schmegg said:
I have lenses that need it. I'll do it myself (only takes a short while) and not be without my camera and/or lens/es for any time at all.

If you lived in Australia, believe me, you wouldn't be rushing to send your gear to Canon without very good reason - because you'll be without it for a month or probably more if you do!
Click to expand...
if you'll look how it does[not] work worldwide, the situation in AU
might still place it among the fortunate few - there are countries
with not a single service unit, turnaround times are dismal, to say
nothing about a hassle of custom duties (and obtaining a waiver), etc,
and this does not even touch issues of incompetence and problems
of communication and information exchange - the list can go on
and on :(

And of course when your warranty is over costs are substantial,

jpr2
--
Click to expand...
one trick with the costs is that if you have a new body under warranty still and send it in with lenses that are out of warranty they calibrate all of it for free
Click to expand...
I am jealous of only one thing when it comes to photography. People who live within driving distance to the NJ or Irving service centres. That must be just wonderful.
 
Zee Char said:
bronxbombers said:
jpr2 said:
schmegg said:
I have lenses that need it. I'll do it myself (only takes a short while) and not be without my camera and/or lens/es for any time at all.

If you lived in Australia, believe me, you wouldn't be rushing to send your gear to Canon without very good reason - because you'll be without it for a month or probably more if you do!
Click to expand...
if you'll look how it does[not] work worldwide, the situation in AU
might still place it among the fortunate few - there are countries
with not a single service unit, turnaround times are dismal, to say
nothing about a hassle of custom duties (and obtaining a waiver), etc,
and this does not even touch issues of incompetence and problems
of communication and information exchange - the list can go on
and on :(

And of course when your warranty is over costs are substantial,

jpr2
--
Click to expand...
one trick with the costs is that if you have a new body under warranty still and send it in with lenses that are out of warranty they calibrate all of it for free
Click to expand...
I am jealous of only one thing when it comes to photography. People who live within driving distance to the NJ or Irving service centres. That must be just wonderful.
Click to expand...
For me, it is nice knowing that the Irvine, CA facility is just a few miles away. However, I have never had to have any work done on any Canon product yet. I would rather it stay that way.
 
somehow it is hard to even imagine putting all/most of one's gear
into a box and sending it across country borders to a remote SC :(
and this is a situation in most of UN recognized countries !!

a state of affairs somehow little recognized in US, CA, AU and other
fortunate few places :P; even in US you have just Irvine and perhaps
NJ as generally well reputed SCs,

jpr2
bronxbombers said:
jpr2 said:
schmegg said:
If you lived in Australia, believe me, you wouldn't be rushing to send your gear to Canon without very good reason - because you'll be without it for a month or probably more if you do!
Click to expand...
if you'll look how it does[not] work worldwide, the situation in AU
might still place it among the fortunate few - there are countries
with not a single service unit, turnaround times are dismal, to say
nothing about a hassle of custom duties (and obtaining a waiver), etc,
and this does not even touch issues of incompetence and problems
of communication and information exchange - the list can go on
and on :(

And of course when your warranty is over costs are substantial,

jpr2
--
Click to expand...
one trick with the costs is that if you have a new body under warranty still and send it in with lenses that are out of warranty they calibrate all of it for free
Click to expand...
--
~
street candids (non-interactive):
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157609618638319/
music and dance:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341265280/
B&W:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623306407882/
wildlife & macro:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157600341377106/
interactive street:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/qmusaget/sets/72157623181919323/

Comments and critique are always welcome!
~
 
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