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More Moire

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Dorus said:
Dorus said:
Dorus said:
The D3S seems to be a pretty successful camera, so if the above referenced informed buyers get themselves an E-5, they will at least know that they are not alone in where they come down in this trade-off.
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So are you saying that the D3s will suffer from moire to the same extent as an E5 ?
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Not sure how you can read that in anything I said above?
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Really?

You seem to be saying that the E5 had moire. But the D3s also has moire. You are only referencing one 'trade off' as opposed to two different levels of trade off, therefore it would appear that by implication the tradeoff of suffering moire is the same or equal in both cameras.

Because obviously, if one camera has say moire in 2% of images, but the other has it in 0.02%, then the tradeoff isn't the same is it?

Or are you saying something different??
 
I think that on average E5 users are experienced/knowledgeable as any others. I would even go so far as to say that I get the impression that a higher percentage of E5 users who post on this forum seem to be more knowledgeable than say Nikon D7000 users posting on the Nikon forum. Do you disagree?

Frank
Big Ga said:
FrankyM said:
Well, perhaps that's the answer to Big Ga's question - E5 users don't run away - just use good judgement...
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Are you saying that you believe all E5 users (or potential buyers) are experienced/knowledgeable enough in the whole moire debate to make a good judgement call ?
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Big Ga said:
Dorus said:
Big Ga said:
Big Ga said:
The D3S seems to be a pretty successful camera, so if the above referenced informed buyers get themselves an E-5, they will at least know that they are not alone in where they come down in this trade-off.
Click to expand...
So are you saying that the D3s will suffer from moire to the same extent as an E5 ?
Click to expand...
Not sure how you can read that in anything I said above?
Click to expand...
Really?

You seem to be saying that the E5 had moire. But the D3s also has moire. You are only referencing one 'trade off' as opposed to two different levels of trade off, therefore it would appear that by implication the tradeoff of suffering moire is the same or equal in both cameras.

Because obviously, if one camera has say moire in 2% of images, but the other has it in 0.02%, then the tradeoff isn't the same is it?

Or are you saying something different??
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Something different indeed. The amount of moire never figured in my reasoning as I don't know the numbers.

Do you?

Dorus
 
Jim pointed out that the D3s wasn't as bad as the E5 but I think that if one pays 4 times the price one should expect something significantly better.

When I replied I was thinking for some reason that the larger pixel pitch of the D3s sensor should reduce Moiré but probably I was wrong.
Big Ga said:
FrankyM said:
I didn't really want to say that the D3S is the same as the E5. However it does show Moiré and it is FF and costs 4 times as much.
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Interesting.

Can I ask - in this context, why are you pointing out that the D3s is FF, and it costs more?
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dear big ga!

people are buying thos cams, where they believe in that for the price they pay the successful hit rate would be highest - considering portability, handling, image quality, focus quality, quality of lenses vs their price.

you are talking about tradeoffs ... for 90% of fotograpgers the hit rate is highest with equipment they have with them when the motive appears ... so, what if with one cam 0.02% of pictures have moire so that a second pic needs to be made from another angel/distance or with different lens and another cam has 0.01% of pictures with moire. yes, the difference is dramtaic - 100%, but if you compare the overall hit rate it is loughable. and if one is shooting day by day textiles which are prone to moire, you could say, he needs to use a certain cam oder needs to use not a certain cam. but you woul dbe qwrong. becaus if one is specialized in such textile shots and knwos his tools, he does for sure know immediately what to do if in rare cases moire show up.

you found here a nice issue for talking pages and many people listening. but you are trying to imply wrong proportions of the issue. tell you that 1000 times more pics are missed because you rpro-nikon stayed at home. tell you that 1000 times more pics are missed because your pro-nikon did not focus correctly fast enough.

tell you that 1000 times more pics are missed because your pro-nikon was not able to tame your shaky hands. so, overall, what is the weight of your findings?

best regards. gusti.
 
Because you doctored the crop.
Post the full image.
 
the likelyhood fo moire comes from:
  • the higher the contrast of the moire-causig pattern, the more likely it is that the aa-filter will it not dampen enough
  • the "stronger" the aa filter is, the less likely moire will ocur
  • the closer the gridsize of the pattern is to the pixel pitch, the more likely moire is to be seen on the pics ... hig pixelcount sensors produce moire for smaller patterns, less pixel count sensors produce moire with rougher patterns, i.e. the likelyhood of moire depends on fotographic distance/focal lenght/pixel count and thus for each pixel count certain distance from a pattern of fixed size produces the same chance of moire ocurring.
  • the les sharp your lens is or the less precise you focus, the less likely is occurrance of moire.
but: do not forget: the characteristic of an aa-filter is a curved one and there is not such thing like a clear cut off frequency. thus, even cams with strong aa-filter can show moire, if the contast of the pattern is high enough.

rgds gusti
 
MilSooper said:
Because you doctored the crop.
Post the full image.
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you know, after the 7-14 debacle that wouldnt surprise me at all

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
I'm merely observing this fascinating debate, I have no interest in the eventual outcome but it looks like milsooper has answered both your questions further downstream.

Why? - because he wants to see it

Whats it going to change? - he suspects there is more to the crop than first appears

It would seem reasonable to now either comply with the request or explain why you are not going to.
--
Paul
 
olyflyer said:
MilSooper said:
Because you doctored the crop.
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Would you say that all the fabric shots (posted by other people) are also "doctored"?
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well i wouldnt
...but that doesnt prevent me from wanting to see the origin of this crop

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
Big Ga said:
I've seen threads on some pro forums where the shooter has had hundreds (may actually have been thousands) of images that were all suffering from severe moire, and they were desperately looking for some automatic way of running the images through a batch convert, otherwise they were screwed ;-)
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References? URLs??

Which forum/s?

Which thread/s?

Which post/s?

Without these, your comments are pure, unadulterated hearsay.

I will refrain from further speculation as to how reliable this might be, considering the source ...

--

-
 
and a once busy thread goes strangely silent

--
Riley

any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
 
olyflyer said:
Rriley said:
and a once busy thread goes strangely silent
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It's the middle of the day in Europe and many people are having daytime jobs or lunch right now...
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"They" sure as heck aren't responding to MilSooper or Willgo's perfectly reasonable request to post images that have some provenance, and hence might just have some merit ...

Specially considering that "they" have form for this omission on previous occasion/s ... :(
 
Moire is fabric is visible to the naked eye for goodness sake. What has that got to do with posting the original image?
 
Moire is nothing but a pattern. It happens, no matter what you shoot with.

A professional photographer will ask you NOT to wear anything with patterns that could affect the digital image. Wear only solid colors.

If you believe otherwise that you are truly a TROLL.
--



http://www.pueblostudio.com
 
Messier Object said:
re the moire question,
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Hi,

I just wanted to thank you for your response. It seemed a very civil reply. Sorry I haven't been back earlier - lots on at the moment.
Messier Object said:
  • Did Oly make AA design decisions between E-3, E-30, E-620 and E-5 - obviously
  • Does a weaker AA result in sharper pictures - I suppose general agreement on this. I have both E-30 and E-5 and I can see the difference
  • Does a weaker AA filter result in more artifacts - it must by definition in the absence of other 'smarts' pre-raw. I haven't noticed (30 vs 5) but until now haven't looked for them (I will in my own controlled conditions)
And now the point of contention from the original OP . . .
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Messier Object said:
Anyway, for me not a totally useless original OP question if taken on face value without looking for motives.
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There are no motives, other than trying to get people to think about the issue. Over the years, I've used and owned (and still do!) a wide variety of camera, from ones with mega-strong AA filters to ones with none at all. I can tell you that there is no such thing as a free lunch. One just has to know which is the nicest to eat at the appropriate time :-)
Messier Object said:
All things being equal; lens, distance, and camera settings, will I see more/stronger moire with the 5 than with the 30 ?
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Almost certainly. But the E5 image will look sharper by default.
 
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