OSX Lion

Unlike some posters here I'm pretty excited by Lion. I think there are a lot of technologies that will make the computing experience more natural - auto saving, versions etc. iCloud will make a difference too.

One question I have is that because Lion will install over Snow Leopard, it presumably cannot be a clean install, which isn't generally a preferred means of updating an OS. My SL installs are two years old - will installing Lion over the top of them be less than ideal?

Thanks

Marcus
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http://www.mbphotography.net
 
Just watched the Apple video about the new OS. I don't think I'll be rushing to upgrade when it comes out. It looks like they just turned the lap and desk top Apples into iPad and iPhones.
Nor am I. But mainly because its App Store only. I have four Macs and I'm not looking forward to four 4GB downloads. I would like to have a DVD I could use in all of them. I would even have to get an optical drive for my Macbook Air but that would be better than the download option.

Peter

P.S. I have a fast connection (32 Mbps) and no cap so that is not the problem.
 
Are you or where you ever a school teached Nainsky? If not i think you need to chabge profession. I was merely adding comment to the thread that someone started. Oh yes, that would be me wouldn't it?
Jules
I hope they have updated the functionality of Time Machine. I have been using it, as in backing up to it, for four years. Only this week after a hard drive failure have i needed to actually use it. I have discovered that although it does save files and folders, the search method to find them does not work.
I think you need to make a call on this thread Jules. Do you want it to be about your inability to understand Lion and iOS5, or your inability to understand how to use a backup tool you chose to rely on for 4 years? If you try to make it about both, I'm pretty sure you'll get confused.

Why not leave this one about Lion, and let the time machine one play out in the other thread you started. Besides, I order a lot of popcorn when how I saw how that other thread was evolving.
-Najinsky
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Julesarnia on twitter
 
Good points. As for cloud, I already have access to webspace and can do all of what it offers already.
Jules
I'm going to have to agree for the most part with the original poster. There is one, and only one major reason to upgrade to Lion...if you want to use iCloud. Most everything else is little more than the iOS-ification of the Mac. Depending on your preference, that's either a good thing or a bad. I find most of it pointless on a regular sized computer screen.
1) 'Little things' like full screen apps and the intelligent and intuitive ways to manage them are actually 'big things' for me. In some apps, every pixel of screen real estate becomes precious.
There was nothing preventing developers from creating full-screen apps now...witness Aperture. Yes, Lion makes it a bit easier; but it's hardly essential for making full-screen apps. Also, bear in mind that other than the pixel peeping that we here do, the average user isn't all that hard-up for screen real estate on a computer (mobile devices yes, but not on a regular computer). Just how many pixels do we need to read email and surf the web, which is what most users spend most of their time doing.
2) After the recent (overblown) OS X security concerns and my hands on experience with android, I appreciate the comfort of App store and cloud syncing, and the focus on evolving the UI in a consistent fashion across the OS.
You don't need Lion to use the Mac App Store. As far as UI consistency, that remains to be seen. I've been using Macs for over 20 years and the current UI is about as inconsistent as it has ever been (not counting Mac OS X 10.0 which was a horrid mess!). Lion is just adding yet another variation to the UI, likely leading to even more fragmentation of the UI.
3) As a developer I appreciate that these enhancements are easily programmable and deployable via over 5000 new APIs (Application Programming Interfaces).
No argument there.
4) My original motivation for moving to Mac (though still developing for windows for a large part of my paid work) was how much easier it was to get real stuff done, eg: using apps, not managing them or the OS. As I spend more and more time on the move, so more and more of my time has recently been spent managing and syncing apps and data between different environments. So I think the focus of this update is spot on, although I do share Conchita's concerns that bandwidth everywhere is not up to some of Apples solutions (however third party apps spring up daily to deal with the most serious issues).
Yes, iCloud is a big "feature". But there's really no reason it had to be tied exclusively to Lion other than to force users to upgrade. Some of us can't, for various reasons, upgrade to Lion. And with Apple phasing out MobileMe in June of 2012, they are replacing it with something that won't be usable on a Mac sold less than a year earlier and a mobile device sold less than 9 months earlier. Not without upgrading the OS, which as I stated, some of us can't do (see below). Both Vista and Windows 7 will be supported, but Snow Leopard (by all evidence currently available) won't be. So Apple is saying that Microsoft's OS released years ago is more compatible than what they are currently selling.
5) In my experience I find that developers are, by necessity, ahead of the curve. And I have observed this so many times that I am as certain as I can be that the users will be following right behind. So while end users may not initially see how they benefit from some of this stuff, the next time they upgrade their software and find it really does enhances their digital life (I lose points for that phrase I'm sure!) it will be thanks to the developer focussed elements of this update (like the 5000 APIs).
Forced obsolescence is sometimes necessary, but abandoning technology they were still selling mere months earlier is unacceptable.

As for the point above about not being able to upgrade to Lion. I'm not talking about old hardware. A previous poster said nothing was taken away with Lion. There are some fairly significant things being taken away. Chief among them is Rosetta, the technology that let's you run older software. Not ancient software. Software that was being sold only a few years ago, including by Apple. If you have any PPC software, even if only minor components are PPC, it won't work in Lion. Are all your Photoshop plugin's Intel native? The software that came with your scanner probably won't work at all. How old is your printer and the driver software it came with? And forget about running your Quicken financial software (I'm talking the "regular" Quicken, not the "lite" version they now sell).

Lion could be the most painful Mac OS upgrade you've ever done, especially if you've been using Macs and have software from more than a few years ago. And Apple's not telling anyone about the loss of Rosetta. Users will find out the hard way that some of their software will no longer run. Sooner or later Apple is going to force me to upgrade because I'll want to get the latest iToy. But for now, I'll remain firmly in the "no thanks" column when it comes to Lion. Too much lost in exchange for very little (of use to me) in return.
--
Julesarnia on twitter
 
How exciting is auto saving. I've been doing it for years whilst working in PS (which is a big part of what I do). Now the computer will decide when it should be done rather than you.
Jules
Unlike some posters here I'm pretty excited by Lion. I think there are a lot of technologies that will make the computing experience more natural - auto saving, versions etc. iCloud will make a difference too.

One question I have is that because Lion will install over Snow Leopard, it presumably cannot be a clean install, which isn't generally a preferred means of updating an OS. My SL installs are two years old - will installing Lion over the top of them be less than ideal?

Thanks

Marcus
--
http://www.mbphotography.net
--
Julesarnia on twitter
 
So what you are saying is it is Apple's fault that the developers with this "outdated" PPC (YES a few years in tech terms is outdated just look at any tech "toy" itoy or not) software have not updated their software as Apple has updated its? I think you should be pointing the finger at those devs who are making your OS upgrades painful... Not Apple. Months ago okay but a released SW that is years old and not Universal Binary by now means eh well maybe time to find another fish in the sea who swims the same way i.e. get another tool plugin w/e.

You my good sir need to focus your wrath at Nik or whomever else is still using PPC software when Apple made the Intel switch in 2006 and announced said switch in 2005.. Outdated even in non tech markets my friend.
--
Patrick D.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pwdphotography
 
Why not download it once then use Sneaker Net and a thumb drive or gigabit ethernet to xfer the .DMG onto the other devices?
Its installed from the mac App Store.
 
Since i started both threads, then i think I have the last say on that. But please feel free to start your own thread if you find this one tiresome.
Jules
Why not leave this one about Lion, and let the time machine one play out in the other thread you started.
 
Just watched the Apple video about the new OS. I don't think I'll be rushing to upgrade when it comes out. It looks like they just turned the lap and desk top Apples into iPad and iPhones.
No, they've added some functionality that looks something like, and was first prove on, recent iOS features.

It's not even close to the same thing as "turning the Mac into an iPhone/iPad".
It is.
For starters, consider that features and functionality have not been removed to coincide with the limitations of iOS devices.

Lion had a lot that should make your workflow faster and more effective than it is right now. It just looks a little more like one of the handheld devices than it does now.
You obviously weren't one of the ones that was blighted by the bug in the last OS that stopped you being able to Save As in PhotoShop. I was and it was a pain and not sorted out for about six months with absolutely no apology from Apple.

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Julesarnia on twitter
 
Is it only as a download? i'm surprised. i have had every other new OS from them on disc.
jules
Just watched the Apple video about the new OS. I don't think I'll be rushing to upgrade when it comes out. It looks like they just turned the lap and desk top Apples into iPad and iPhones.
Nor am I. But mainly because its App Store only. I have four Macs and I'm not looking forward to four 4GB downloads. I would like to have a DVD I could use in all of them. I would even have to get an optical drive for my Macbook Air but that would be better than the download option.

Peter

P.S. I have a fast connection (32 Mbps) and no cap so that is not the problem.
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Julesarnia on twitter
 
Whether or not I would like to upgrade, I won't have a choice to do it! I've been locked out of that decision! I can't upgrade because I purchased my Intel Core Duo one month prior to the release of Core 2 Duo which is required for an upgrade to Lion! It appears that Apple is not retaining its noted compatibility with prior products - if it ever has!
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Vernon
 
True, and there is plenty of wrath being directed at Intuit and the like for their failure to update their software. There is an issue with those developers, including Apple, who continued to sell software that had PPC components for years after the Intel transition. Even the OS itself had PPC components long after 2006.

But it's Apple's choice to remove Rosetta. It survived the transition to Snow Leopard which changed the foundations of the OS. So why can't it survive the transition to Lion, which changes far less in the OS than Snow Leopard did. Yes, eventually Rosetta will need to be retired, but it's simply too soon relative to when vendors, again, including Apple, were selling PPC software.

Bottom line, regardless of who's fault it is, the $29 upgrade to Lion really costs several hundred, in some cases thousands, of dollars because of all the other software that needs to be upgraded. And that's assuming there are Intel equivalents available. And the apparent tying of iCloud to be exclusive to Lion and termination of MobileMe adds insult to injury when Vista is still supported, suggesting you'd be better off being a Windows users than a Mac user (not that I would ever switch!).

On top of that, Apple's [typically] silent stance on this is infuriating. Even MS had a tool to allow you to scan your computer to see if you had software that would work with their new OS. Apple has done absolutely nothing to help users understand the potential impacts of upgrading. They did such a great job making Rosetta work, that many people don't even know they have PPC software on their computer. So even when there may be an Intel upgrade available, people won't know they need it until after they upgrade to Lion and things break (remember us all laughing at Windows for similar issues?). I'm still hoping Apple will prove me wrong when Lion is finally released and they have something to help people identify issues before they install Lion.
So what you are saying is it is Apple's fault that the developers with this "outdated" PPC (YES a few years in tech terms is outdated just look at any tech "toy" itoy or not) software have not updated their software as Apple has updated its? I think you should be pointing the finger at those devs who are making your OS upgrades painful... Not Apple. Months ago okay but a released SW that is years old and not Universal Binary by now means eh well maybe time to find another fish in the sea who swims the same way i.e. get another tool plugin w/e.

You my good sir need to focus your wrath at Nik or whomever else is still using PPC software when Apple made the Intel switch in 2006 and announced said switch in 2005.. Outdated even in non tech markets my friend.
--
Patrick D.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pwdphotography
 
A while back, rumors had it that Mac OS X Server would be folded into Mac OS X for the Lion release.

Mac OS X Server used to cost something like $999 by itself (unlimited users), or a similar amount if you bought a copy (??? users) with a Mini in the box. :)

Now it appears that to get Lion Server, you need to start with Snow Leopard Server, and buy Lion ($29.99) and buy Lion Server ($49.99). There's no indication of how you would get Lion Server or what the pricing would be if you couldn't start from Snow Leopard Server (say, because Apple had discontinued it; or because you had bought a new machine that would only run Lion).
 
Since i started both threads, then i think I have the last say on that.
Of course you do. You always do.
But please feel free to start your own thread if you find this one tiresome.
Not tiresome, I was genuinely thinking of you. The forums here are littered with evidence of your remarkable ability to get yourself into a pickle and then scald those who try to help. Didn't you know Jules? Your'e a DPR legend.

-Najinsky
 
Are you or where you ever a school teached Nainsky? If not i think you need to chabge profession. I was merely adding comment to the thread that someone started. Oh yes, that would be me wouldn't it?
Close. I was a the advanced programming course designer and lecturer for a UK consultancy business. It was part of my role to look for people making mistakes and then help them understand and learn from them. I guess it's an occupational hazard. It certainly gets me into all sorts of bother here on DPR.

It was only a suggestion. Feel free to not even think about it before ignoring it.

-Najinsky
 
Since i started both threads, then i think I have the last say on that.
Of course you do. You always do.
But please feel free to start your own thread if you find this one tiresome.
Not tiresome, I was genuinely thinking of you. The forums here are littered with evidence of your remarkable ability to get yourself into a pickle and then scald those who try to help. Didn't you know Jules? Your'e a DPR legend.
At you service. Belive me, I do recognise names as posting a lot on this forum, but I don't attach any personality to them as you do. I feel honored that I have made an impression on you.
Jules
-Najinsky
--
Julesarnia on twitter
 
On top of that, Apple's [typically] silent stance on this is infuriating. Even MS had a tool to allow you to scan your computer to see if you had software that would work with their new OS. Apple has done absolutely nothing to help users understand the potential impacts of upgrading.
There is already a "tool" available to Mac OS X users to find out which applications they own that rely on Rosetta, and it is part of OS X...

Here is how to do it (thanks to TidBITS for the detailed instructions):

You need to know what PowerPC-only applications you currently depend on. The easiest way to learn that is through System Profiler. This application resides in your Application/Utilities folder, but there’s a shortcut; choose About This Mac from the Apple menu, and when the dialog appears describing your system and hardware, click the More Info button to launch System Profiler. Even faster, Option-click the Apple menu and choose System Profiler directly.

System Profiler displays its information in three categories, listed in a pane down the right side of its window: Hardware, Network, and Software. For the fullest display of categories, choose View > Full Profile. Now, under Software (click the triangle to open it if necessary), select Applications.

Now go make yourself another espresso from your handy-dandy Pavoni Napolitana, because it could take a while for anything to appear in the window. System Profiler is going to walk through all mounted hard disks looking for applications, and if you’re anything like me, it’s a long walk (a big disk containing a lot of applications). When System Profiler finally finishes, your applications will be listed, along with several columns of information about them. The column you’re most interested in right now is the Kind column (you can drag it to the left to move it next to the Application Name column, if that makes parsing the results easier). It will say one of four things:

Classic: These are 68K applications. What are you, some kind of sentimental wacko? These applications may have run under System 7 or as late as Mac OS 9, but under Mac OS X the only way they’ve ever run, if they’ve ever run, is in the Classic environment. If you’re running Snow Leopard, or even Leopard on any Intel-based Mac, there is no Classic. So why do you still have them around? Actually, a few of these applications are occasionally still important to me, and I run them using SheepShaver, as I explained in “SheepShaver Brings Classic Mac OS to Snow Leopard” (23 October 2009). So far be it from me to criticize.

Intel: These are Intel-native applications. They’ll probably continue to work reasonably well on Lion, though of course there can be glitches caused by the introduction of a new system. They are probably actively developed, though, so with luck any such glitches will be ironed out by their developers.

Universal: These are “universal binaries” that contain both PowerPC code and Intel code, so if you’re running Snow Leopard, which means you must be using an Intel-based Mac, they behave like Intel-native applications as far as you’re concerned.

PowerPC: Aha! These are the droids we’re looking for. They contain PowerPC code and no Intel code. So if, as is commonly expected, Lion doesn’t support Rosetta, these applications will be pushing up daisies. They will be pining for the fjords. They will have gone to meet their maker. They are even now crying out, “Ave Caesar! Nos morituri te salutamus!” Which means, roughly (and bearing in mind that I have a PhD in Classics and you probably don’t): “Stab me in the back! Stab me in the head! Farewell, Caesar! Dead dead dead!”
 
Classic: These are 68K applications.
Classic doesn't mean "68K application". It means "An application written for some version of Mac OS before Mac OS X." Such an application might have been written for 68K chips, or for PowerPC chips, or for both ("Fat Binary").
 
In a way I understand Apple dropping Rosetta. For years Microsoft made their operating system backwardly compatible so people could run old DOS applications. Sometimes is it just time to move on.
 

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