Why are Sigma users so loyal (I don't get it)

The additional resolution would be very useful for cropping.
...means not enough time assigned to framing in the viewfinder before releasing the shutter. ;)
Agree!
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Kind regards
Øyvind
My best images:
http://foto.nordjylland.biz/porta/Portfolio/Best/album/index.html
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SD14 Compendium:
http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/sd-usertips.htm
 
.. when I forget that the focusing screen is slightly misaligned, so I have to crop to straighten the horizon.....
The additional resolution would be very useful for cropping.
...means not enough time assigned to framing in the viewfinder before releasing the shutter. ;)
Agree!
--
Sincere regards, Jim Roelofs

Cherish your privacy? Avoid (sp)iPhones.



Please visit my gallery at http://www.pbase.com/jrdigitalart/
--
Kind regards
Øyvind
My best images:
http://foto.nordjylland.biz/porta/Portfolio/Best/album/index.html
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking/sd14
SD14 Compendium:
http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/sd-usertips.htm
--
Kind regards
Øyvind
My best images:
http://foto.nordjylland.biz/porta/Portfolio/Best/album/index.html
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking/sd14
SD14 Compendium:
http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/sd-usertips.htm
 
" always pick a foveon image" ?? no one has said that, to my recall.
I will say it now. Images from SD9 are distinct from SD10 as they are ftom SD14 and SD15.

SD9 - strange blue skies
SD10 - strange yellow skin tones
SD14 - very bad greens and reds
SD15 - better than SD14 but still a long way to go.

I look at images and can immediately (and normally 100% accurately) pick the Foveon images.
 
If you buy a DP1 and get one of those "perfect" photographs you will be cursed. I love my G10 (now G12) and I would like nothing better than to just carry that camera around. Every month I get close to selling, but don't. I'll take 100 nice photos with my G12 and then boom, completely floored by a DP1 shot. I mean like I'm speechless. I couldn't give a hoot about Sigma. I'm not loyal. I still don't see all the fuss about their DSLRs. I don't care if they charge $7K for their camera. It's their business. All I care about is my DP1 (and I just bought a DP2 by the way).

Whenever I do a test with both cameras the DP1 takes better photos (to me). I should point out what others haven't mentioned (curious their take) that the DP1 records what inspired me to take the photo in the first place. It "remembers" the scene as I remember it emotionally. So one can argue all they want about resolution, etc., but they can't argue feelings. I don't get those shots with my Canon.

So if you really want to understand it, I suggest getting a DP1 or DP2. Even at a nightclub. Put the camera on a mini-tripod. Set the "Drive Mode" to 2 seconds so the camera doesn't shake when you press the shutter. Then take a bunch of photos. Don't be surprised if one blows you away.

Then you'll miss a bunch of shots, like we all do with those cameras. You'll hate the camera. Then you'll realize that no matter how much image processing you might do with another camera's photo it will never rival what the DP1 did.
 
and had seen some of the photography being done (not snapshots) by some of the early contributors, and read the reviews here, it was an exciting time.

I bought a nikon 5700 (I think) in 2000 and sold it a month later, stuck with film. The owner of "Classic Camera" in Maine (out of business now) who was a medium large format aficionado was a great source of help to the "film" locals and mentioned to me the name foveon.

I did some research and soon was the proud owner of an SD9, and very pleased with the results.

Some review comments:

"The EOS-D30 is still representative of the best of its sensor resolution, thus this is a good comparison of X3 versus Bayer at the same output image size. As you can see the SD9 performs much better than the EOS-D30, delivering more detail, sharper detail as well as elements which have become invisible on the D30 image."

"At this stage I'm thinking "this is getting interesting". As you can see the SD9 image enlarges quite well, and it shows that it's carrying at least as much resolution / detail as the EOS-D60. I for one did not expect this result but am pleasantly surprised."

"Foveon (a previously not-so-well-known technology company) and Sigma (never before produced a digital camera) have had the guts and innovation to come to a very aggressive and critical market with a totally new concept in digital image capture. They have made the first step in what must be seen as a revolution in digital photography."

"The SD10 is certainly a significant and capable digital SLR, especially thanks to some of the improvements made since the SD9. It offers a level of image quality Bayer sensor cameras just can't match (pixel for pixel)."

sniff.......I think I'm starting to tear up, nostagia can be comforting.

Bayer hasn't stood still, and sigma appers to be struggling with smaller photosites, so the "foveon look" may not be as unique as it once was, but the first graduating class has fond memories, and high hopes for future accomplishments.......who wouldn't!

here's a link to a sample from the SD10 dpreview samples page.....you can down load the original and take a look........its a stunning image for its day, and still can hold its own against some modern DSLRs,( as long as you don't get carried away with trying to make a billboard sized print)

http://www.dpreview.com/.../90278/sample-13?inalbum=sigma-sd10-review-samples

give the sd9 and sd10 reviews a read..........careful though, you might catch the fevor.

with high hopes..........but not dillusional

Mike
 
Despite ownership of a SD9, DP1 and Sd14 I'm still searching for this "Incredible" image quality.

My experience has generally been that Foveon images aren't as good as Bayer images because of colour problems. I think I may finally have cracked that problem with DNG profiles and fixed the lockup problem with the SD14 mod.

But even so, I would still assess my Foveon images as being (at best) about as good as 12MP bayer shots. If I'm completely honest with myself I would have to say that I have not as yet managed to shoot a single Foveon image that has a "wow" factor.
I am confused; if you don't see anything different in Foveon images, why do you bother buying all Sigma models? Unless you've got them for free, this does not make much sense. I totally understand people that find good Foveon images more pleasing to their eyes than good Bayer images (and I am one of them), but what are the other reasons that make you so loyal to Sigma brand?
 
At what price tag though?
The SD-15 is pretty cheap...
$900+ for a camera that has spotty performance ratings is not cheap. A $1,000 camera body should not have the autofocus inconsistencies people still experience with the SD15.

At Amazon, I could buy the SD15 body for $989.
I could save $110 and buy a Pentax K7 body.

Or I could pay $310 more and get the new K5. Both Pentax bodies offer more features and perform more consistently than the SD15...and are more durable. I am probably leaving Sigma (as far as new purchases) and buying a K5 this fall, so that's why I picked Pentax.

I know the potential IQ of Sigma. I also know that IQ always sucks when a photo is not focused properly. I also know that, whether we like it or not, half of photography today is post-processing talent. Photoshopping levels the playing field. Deny it, but it is what it is. I'd rather upgrade to HD video and spend a little more time tweaking a CMOS image than having to cull out Foveon images that are out of focus that would have otherwise been keepers.
 
I love the image quality (even relative to the 5DMkII, the colors are much better). However, my loyalty is waining with the new price of the SD1.
 
Talking about the DSLR bodies, not Sigma glass. I don't get the loyalty. All the bodies seem to be feature poor compared to competitors. The infamous sensors reportedly give lots of resolution, but only in bright light....color and noise in the shadows is...um..ahhh...not so great, poor ISO performance seems to be about 2 years behind not only Nikon and Canon, but Olympus, Sony, etc.

I originally just came by to see the train wreck, but I can't help but admire the tenacity of the Sigma fan...just don't understand it.
About tenacity: Hi Mike, saw your photos and got the feel you like tenacity in other fields too. Like biking or marriage. Have you thought about the tenacity it takes to play an instrument well? Like playing classical guitar: after aiming in that direction I find it unbelievable that people (incl myself) even take the time to try play a guitar well: at least 2-3 hours a day for a decade and you've just moved a little above the ground. It's almost impossible and still I and thousands of everyday 'stubborns' are trying. Can that tenacity be portrayed in photos somehow? I've boyled the reason down to this: other people can do it, so I can too :-) Besides (and most important): even if you don't feel you're learning, you're learning anyway and the result will surface in a couple of months, years...ha ha and if this is reinforced once, you're hooked...

About Sigma: frequent reinforcement in a pattern will teach a dog (and you) to come back with intervals. Infrequent reinforcement will force you to come back every time to see if there is a winner this time. That's the way with Sigma photos. You never know if you got a winner this time after a photosession...

About the thread: did you get closer to an understanding of the tenacity of the Sigma photographers?

Ole
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most of them work for Sigma :)
No, thats not fair to say. At least not if you talk about PAID work.
Some chooses to volunteer their services to Sigma.

Sigma has a special relationship with their users. Maybe because it's so few. :-) or :-(
On trade shows Sigma hold diners and provide equipment for photo shootouts.
Users choose to provide images to Sigma for their stands (for free)
Some choose to print the images for Sigma - better than Sigma could themself.
Some choose to hang around their boots and offer help to potentional buyers.
Some help with "beta-testing" of new models.

Also, because its so few, it has been possible to build a strong internet society here.
As a result, Sigma has a pretty strong user group, the SUG, with IRL meetings.

It was interesting to see that with very few exception, the hard-core Sigma users did not defend Sigmas SD-1 pricing decision.

I also chose to "work" for Sigma, by making a SD-14 compendium - compiling all information I could find, to assist new and old users in utilizing their camera better.

I also chose to put together a document with "all" options for using Non-Sigma lenses on the SD-14. That is probably NOT in Sigmas interest.

--
Kind regards
Øyvind
My best images:
http://foto.nordjylland.biz/porta/Portfolio/Best/album/index.html
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking/sd14
SD14 Compendium:
http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/sd-usertips.htm
 
That is not an observation - it's a physical fact. The index of refraction of a lens is a function of wavelength (how a prism separates white light into color). Hence a lens will have a slightly different focal length for different colors.
In any modern camera lens this aberration (chromatic aberration) is fully corrected. The correction is best in "apochromatic" lenses.
So the red channel will have a different focal point than the green channel than the blue channel. In the Foveon since most of the top channel is blue and most of the red channel is red - the same thing happens.
Given a lens which has exactly the same focal point for all colours, this is theoretically possible. But how thick is the Foveon sensor? So far as I can calculate, a Foveon pixel (in the SD15 etc) is about as thick as it is wide: that is, the three layers together make up a cube. (Like a liquorice allsort.)

So I don't think you would see any effect. And, looking at distant detail in DP1 shots, you don't.
 
The SD15 pixel size is apx 7840 nmeter. The wave length of blue light is apx 450 nm and red light 650 nm. That implies that second layer of detector is apx 15 waveslength and the third apx 30 wavelengths. Hence the thickness of the chip might be an issue since there is refraction in the chip and the index of refraction varies by wavelength. I doubt seriously that the microlenses compensate for that or could be designed to. It would be a bigger issue the further the ray travels in the silicon which means the further from the center of the chip - the more the effect.

I doubt if it is with ASP-C size sensor of the SD15. However, the SD1 sensor is 24 mm long instead of the 20.8 mm of the SD15. Could this be a larger effect on the SD1 sensor than the SD15? Could this be a limiting factor in the size of a Foveon sensor? Could compensating for this be part of the cost of the SD1 sensor?

The original Foveon concept was for small sensor systems such as cell phones. Might this concept not scale in size very well? I don't have the desire to make the necessary calculations, but it would be interesting to look at.
Given a lens which has exactly the same focal point for all colours, this is theoretically possible. But how thick is the Foveon sensor? So far as I can calculate, a Foveon pixel (in the SD15 etc) is about as thick as it is wide: that is, the three layers together make up a cube. (Like a liquorice allsort.)

So I don't think you would see any effect. And, looking at distant detail in DP1 shots, you don't.
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About the thread: did you get closer to an understanding of the tenacity of the Sigma photographers?

Ole
--
Well, yes and no. To me, photography is a form of art. I know lots of musicians, many of them very technically proficient..the kind of guys who will make snide comments about Jimmy Page always playing out of tune. Often their own music is very technically accomplished, and also very boring. I much prefer the musician with an artistic vision over the artist with simple technical competence. Of course when you have both, then things get really interesting

I went out and looked at one of the SD challenges, and there were a couple of shots I liked..but not many...

Personally, I think the Sigma fan has become way to hung up on resolution...and cares far too little about the artistic qualities of photography. And that probably applies to the rest of us as well. With today's technology it takes no effort to create a photograph that is properly exposed and in focus..with any decent system and a tripod, it will be plenty sharp too. I've seen exhibits of photographs done with lens babies, iphones or homemade pinhole cameras that is far more beautiful than the stuff most of us turn out with our 10,000 systems.

So I guess my advice to the Sigma fan would be to stop being such a resolution geek. Stop talking to people who understand engineering. Instead, talk to people who know how to paint. Drink espresso. And local wine. Actually thats good advice for all of us...I think I'll take it



 
I agree with everything said here....and now theres gonna be trouble ;)

But dpreview is a place for geeks and gear fans (mostly)...photo.net, 1X and etc are much better for photography fans...and for the record , while the photo is good, is also not art (of course to my POV)...
commiebiker wrote:

Well, yes and no. To me, photography is a form of art. I know lots of musicians, many of them very technically proficient..the kind of guys who will make snide comments about Jimmy Page always playing out of tune. Often their own music is very technically accomplished, and also very boring. I much prefer the musician with an artistic vision over the artist with simple technical competence. Of course when you have both, then things get really interesting

I went out and looked at one of the SD challenges, and there were a couple of shots I liked..but not many...

Personally, I think the Sigma fan has become way to hung up on resolution...and cares far too little about the artistic qualities of photography. And that probably applies to the rest of us as well. With today's technology it takes no effort to create a photograph that is properly exposed and in focus..with any decent system and a tripod, it will be plenty sharp too. I've seen exhibits of photographs done with lens babies, iphones or homemade pinhole cameras that is far more beautiful than the stuff most of us turn out with our 10,000 systems.

So I guess my advice to the Sigma fan would be to stop being such a resolution geek. Stop talking to people who understand engineering. Instead, talk to people who know how to paint. Drink espresso. And local wine. Actually thats good advice for all of us...I think I'll take it



--

I could be a much better photographer if i was out there taking pictures, instead of talking here at dpreview....
 
But dpreview is a place for geeks and gear fans (mostly)...photo.net, 1X and etc are much better for photography fans...and for the record , while the photo is good, is also not art (of course to my POV)...

--

I could be a much better photographer if i was out there taking pictures, instead of talking here at dpreview....
As could we all...

posted the photo not as an example of fine art, but as encouragement for people to get out and have some fun--(although this did get published :) )
 
So I guess my advice to the Sigma fan would be to stop being such a resolution geek. Stop talking to people who understand engineering. Instead, talk to people who know how to paint. Drink espresso. And local wine. Actually thats good advice for all of us...I think I'll take it
Thanks, and good advice. Even if you want to play classical guitar you have to be somewhat technical - and then forget about it when it's built in...

I'd love to talk to the people you mention, but they usually don't say much. 'Look at my pictures' ... I'd like some more thoughts and demos than just that :-) Well, there's allways Georges here: http://www.pbase.com/ianvermeer/profile
A Sigma painter/photographer. Take a look at his photos.

Ole

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Not loyal to Sigma at all. But find the concept of the Foveon promising.
That I think an excellent description for all of us - Sigma owners. We are NOT loyal to Sigma, but are very interested in Foveon technology. If it were adopted by any other company, we would be more than happy to try their products as well. So it is rather unfortunate that we are stuck with Sigma who is not capable (for whatever reason) of bringing the quality of their cameras up to the current customer expectations in many regards. Many of Sigma owners compensate these shortcomings using other brands for different purposes (nigh/sports photography, etc). But I would not categorize us as fanatic loyalists of Sigma (like the OP post implies IMHO) just because we also prefer Foveon output for certain genre of photography.

Vadym

NOT LOYAL TO SIGMA BUT FIND THE CONCEPT OF FOVEON PROMISSING
(DMillier)
;)
 

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