Why are Sigma users so loyal (I don't get it)

In the grand scheme of things that isn't very many though is it ? :-)
Theres no big professional (known one) using it..at least not that i know of...pick any photography field. Portrait, wedding, street, fine art, landscape....No famous photographer that uses Sigma bodies...of course that some ( pros), like you said (few) are using it...but i highly doubt that they only have Sigma....
You are right in that they do not only have Sigma. Sigma for sure cannot solve every need. You probably also find a lot of pros that have more than their Nikon or Canon. Gary Mercer, a American Pro, uses (or has used) Sigma for very large enlargments, and uses Canon for other tasks.

I am not fameous. Currently I only have Sigma (A SD-14) - and I cannot accept all kinds of assignments. Events and weddings where I have to shoot faster than one image every 6th second is out of the question, and do not need very good color accuracy. :-(

But for controlled conditions, where one can work around the quirks, its pretty good. The green colour cast typical of the SD-14 is easy adjusted in SPP. The funny thing is that the green cast varies from unit to unit. I typically use max 30 sec on each image, where 20 sec is waiting for the image to process. And only use Photoshop to resize, QIMAGE to print.
--

I could be a much better photographer if i was out there taking pictures, instead of talking here at dpreview....
--
Kind regards
Øyvind
My best images:
http://foto.nordjylland.biz/porta/Portfolio/Best/album/index.html
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking/sd14
SD14 Compendium:
http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/sd-usertips.htm
 
Hey

Thanks for comming back.
Nice to see what kinds of jobs you need tools for.
Sigma is not even remotely an option for your type of work.

If you do cover work, you could look into it. Noise is controllable.
Well thanks for all the replies....you haven't talked me into one just yet...for the stuff I do most(live music) I'll routinely shoot at ISOs of 8-10,000, and yes, when there is something special happening, I want to fire off bursts. At many events, I'll get three songs....so 10-15 minutes max....There is no time to fiddle with gear. It has to be completely reliable and consistent from shot to shot, show to show. Lighting is changing constantly, and the camera has to keep up...Sometimes in the mosh pit, shooting one handed and depending on the autofocus. So in my world, to say its all about IQ, and not about the system that delivers it doesn't work.

In the 70's, I drove a volkswagon beetle and shot with an OM1, so I can understand the cult like defense of the smaller brand....but nowdays I think I'll stick with my Nikons :)
--
Kind regards
Øyvind
My best images:
http://foto.nordjylland.biz/porta/Portfolio/Best/album/index.html
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking/sd14
SD14 Compendium:
http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/sd-usertips.htm
 
First of all, i like your pictures...great sense of peace and beauty to them...now for your sigma comments, i do agree with what you said...just one doubt, why print by QIMAGE if you already upsized with photoshop? isnt qimage a better tool for doing so? thanks...
You are right in that they do not only have Sigma. Sigma for sure cannot solve every need. You probably also find a lot of pros that have more than their Nikon or Canon. Gary Mercer, a American Pro, uses (or has used) Sigma for very large enlargments, and uses Canon for other tasks.

I am not fameous. Currently I only have Sigma (A SD-14) - and I cannot accept all kinds of assignments. Events and weddings where I have to shoot faster than one image every 6th second is out of the question, and do not need very good color accuracy. :-(

But for controlled conditions, where one can work around the quirks, its pretty good. The green colour cast typical of the SD-14 is easy adjusted in SPP. The funny thing is that the green cast varies from unit to unit. I typically use max 30 sec on each image, where 20 sec is waiting for the image to process. And only use Photoshop to resize, QIMAGE to print.
--

I could be a much better photographer if i was out there taking pictures, instead of talking here at dpreview....
--
Kind regards
Øyvind
My best images:
http://foto.nordjylland.biz/porta/Portfolio/Best/album/index.html
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking/sd14
SD14 Compendium:
http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/sd-usertips.htm
--

I could be a much better photographer if i was out there taking pictures, instead of talking here at dpreview....
 
I have been captivated by the Foveon/Sigma images since I saw the first SD9 pictures posted. When I posted one of my first SD9 “woods and wall” shots someone commented that they felt as if they were there. People looking at my prints have the same kind of reactions. I call it verisimilitude. This IQ is subtle and as somebody pointed out, it is subjective, meaning you cannot fully reduce it to objective qualities that can be measured. Furthermore, the eye-brain interaction is very complicated, and functions at the level of immediate experience. So when somebody says they don’t see it I believe them.

I have never said the CFA (aka Bayer) cameras are totally incapable of producing this quality, it’s just that the Sigma cameras do it for me in a way the CFA do not seem to. Again, this might just be me not seeing something that is there, but the debates we have had over why the Sigma cameras seem to have an edge do suggest there may be inherent differences which may give the Foveon sensors an edge.

Given the subtlety of the IQ we are dealing with here, I expect the debates, and the name-calling, will continue. Since I love a good debate I may even take part now and then as long as my health allows.

With luck Sigma will survive this pricing disaster and continue to develop both these sensors and the bodies they put them into. In the meantime Nancy and I will also continue to take pictures with our Sigma cameras and share those we like.

Pete
 
So when photos from my Sigma come out looking green, is that really how the world appears to everyone else ? :-)

Nick
 
I suspect that liking Foveon and valve amps are symptoms of the same cause!
Hi DMillier, I suspect the same :-)

Reminds me that I accidentaly hit a 2 years old old thread about the difference between SPP, LR and Silkypix.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=33383206

There were some rather illlustrating examples of different processresults of the same photo from these programs. I found the differences very striking.

In this thread you remarked rather dryly (and unfortunately unanswered) the following:

'Interesting stuff this - because I find the differences in these versions make no odds to me. Interesting that some are hyper-sensitive to what seem to me to be unimportant differences.'

If you think so no wonder there is a big difference in the way different people in the forum perceive a photo. I'm thinking along the same lines as Pete in the posting 'versimilitude' in this thread. In the examples above I'm opposite to you and I have no problem finding my much preferred example.

I wonder why this is so, but that's complicated as Pete says too. I'm thinking that relative focus on details rather than on wholeness has something to do with it. It has when it comes to sound: a good valve amp is giving more microdetails (sounds within sounds) than a solid state amp without focusing on the bright side of the sound - in my ears of course.

Ole

--
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=38500043
http://www.pbase.com/thofte
 
very nice, I have said the same.

I live in a country where there's a lot of sun. I am in 5000+ images with my DP2 in 5 months, without trying. I just love it even after all the quirks, lockups, and etc...
Talking about the DSLR bodies, not Sigma glass. I don't get the loyalty. All the bodies seem to be feature poor compared to competitors. The infamous sensors reportedly give lots of resolution, but only in bright light....color and noise in the shadows is...um..ahhh...not so great, poor ISO performance seems to be about 2 years behind not only Nikon and Canon, but Olympus, Sony, etc.

I originally just came by to see the train wreck, but I can't help but admire the tenacity of the Sigma fan...just don't understand it.
If exposure and focus is perfect the Sigma cameras will give you stunning IQ photos.

The forum helps you with these aspects. And the hunt for the perfect IQ. And the forumm has good photographers that show and keep up the level of quality expectancy.

However, if you're a mediocre photographer you won't get focus and exposure right that many times - especially if you live in a country without much sunshine. And the practical hazzle with batteries, slowness of the cameras forces you to plan a lot when you go to take photos. Some are good at this sort of planning, some are not so good. But the forum does not talk that much about mediocre photographers :-)

My conclusion is that Sigma cameras are very usable under good light conditions, which are rare in some countries. In all other situations you have to have another more versatile camera along + lenses. This is natural I suppose for the pros or semipros but not for the average photographer: how much does 2 systems weigh? What if you don't have a car? If you're a good photographer you get more keepers of course, but they have limits too.

And the problem is that your 2nd camerasystem that is usable in bad light conditions doesn't make the kind of stunning photos we're used to from the Sigmas. So we are stuck waiting for the Sigmas to get it right under all conditions. The waiting has lasted 8 years. I'm beginning to believe it will never happen.... And that photodays=sunny days or flash.

Ole (mediocre photographer)

--
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=38500043
http://www.pbase.com/thofte
 
Talking about the DSLR bodies, not Sigma glass. I don't get the loyalty. All the bodies seem to be feature poor compared to competitors. The infamous sensors reportedly give lots of resolution, but only in bright light....color and noise in the shadows is...um..ahhh...not so great, poor ISO performance seems to be about 2 years behind not only Nikon and Canon, but Olympus, Sony, etc.

I originally just came by to see the train wreck, but I can't help but admire the tenacity of the Sigma fan...just don't understand it.
I honestly think this "loyalty" is going to fade for some if not many..

Rich
ny
 
There is something wrong in my eyes, Foveon images just looks some much better, when there is no green cast, bad reds etc. problems.

I really think that there must be some kind of biological explanation to the fact that some people like Foveon images so much.
 
even if they didn't have any edge in IQ, i'd still use them since they are the only maker that doesn't burden their cameras with all sorts of gadgetry. ok perhaps leica is another, but in a different price range, and not without it's own issues.
Actually Leica seem cheap and affordable compared to the SD1!
Really ? Which one?
 
It does all make me question my sanity pursuing the Foveon dream, given the limitations of the cameras themselves. Maybe it's just the idea of the sensor that appeals...
I don't think "Sanity" and "Foveon" necessarily go together!
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Tom Schum
 
I respect the depth of your belief in this "v" quality. Maybe it exists, maybe it doesn't. But I don't believe in all this subjectivist justfication stuff, that's just an excuse for wooly thinking.

If "v" exists, it can be easily demonstrated through double blind testing, as are all similar such claims. No claims to superior sensistivity (or should that be faulty eyesight, who can say whether it's a virtue or a fault) are required.

I've attempted this myself before but not particulartly competently, unfortunately.

What struck me most about the aborted exercise was how much resistance there was from the foveon faithful to the attempt at all. It wasn't the details of the attempt that upset people, it was the sheer horror that someone should suggest putting cherished claims to objective test. The arguments given were essentially of the same type provided in defence of homeopathy, ESP etc.

This doesn't prove anything either way, but it makes me immediately suspicious.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/default.shtml
 
I think we know that colour isn't a property of the sensor, it's a property of how software is used to interpret the sensor raw data.

Messing about with a colour checker card and dng profiles has shown me that the final rendered image is simply a construct of profiling matrices. It's possible to make any camera look like the colour of any other.

For example, someone built a DNG recipe to simulate Kodachrome 25. It's quite realistic with the Sd14 if you like that kind of look - but it wasn't made using a Sigma camera. The DNG recipe can be converted to suit any camera. The same raw file can be coupled with the Kodachrome 25 profile to create a super contrasty super saturated look based on the characteristics of an obsolete film or it can produce a flat, almost monochrome result without adjusting anything other than a colour profile.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/default.shtml
 
If you wanted to research this, the very first step is to prove that those who say they do, actually do (as opposed to imagining that they do).

In a decade and thousands of posts on this forum, I've still not seen anything that comes near demonstrating that a Foveon fan will always pick a foveon image as the best, if they are preventing from knowing which images are foveon and which aren't.

I'd love James Randi to arrange a test. I don't really care whether a test proved conclusively that Foveon fans really do prefer Foveon images or that they do no better than random. Both results would be equally fascinating.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/default.shtml
 
Probably, sure, if you work and work and work post processing a digital file from one camera you can achieve the 'look' of another brand camera... but frankly I don't want to spend hours post processing. That's the beauty of SPP for me; usually, a couple clicks, and pop, I have the 'look' I want..... with pop. Verisimilitude as Peter calls it.

Granted, sometimes it's not so easy getting things right. I'm still kicking around the SD14 files from Nevada when I have time to play with them. I think all brand cameras have inherent color casts built in (by the manufacturer). My Pentax files straight from the camera are browner, bluer, darker than my Sigma files... each Sigma camera I have outputs somewhat different 'color' too. DP1 more magenta. DP2 colder, more blue. But when Sigma users write they like the 'color' I think largely people mean the subtleness... the gradations of color .... not really the straight output color.

Now I get to work with indoor, bad light photos from Ohio from our trip last weekend. I finally coaxed the files to download from a damaged SDHC card.
Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)
 
Probably, sure, if you work and work and work post processing a digital file from one camera you can achieve the 'look' of another brand camera... but frankly I don't want to spend hours post processing. That's the beauty of SPP for me; usually, a couple clicks, and pop, I have the 'look' I want..... with pop. Verisimilitude as Peter calls it.
snip

Hi, Sandy,

I respect David's and others' desire for an impartial, quantitative measure of "merit" between Sigma/Foveon images and others. Not to duck that issue - because it is valid for him and for many here in varying degrees - but I think there is a subjective part of it. It's not just the "best" tool for a specific job, but particularly in executing artistic intent, it's what "fits" a given photographer in achieving what he/she desires in an image. I'd guess throughout the march of technology from the most basic tools and machines to today's highly complex amalgams of multiple technologies (e.g. digital cameras), there have always been contests the likes of "why don't you use this - - - -, it's so much better?" Reply: "Because I like this one - it just feels better to me and I prefer the result."

I think we'll always be at some sort of an impasse where "right" or "wrong" and "best" will be highly subjective, beyond some range of measurable difference or equivalence. As I've said before, if someone wants to give me a Canon or Nikon or Sony or Leica DSLR with a superb lens or two, in the factory sealed boxes, I'll be happy to give them my shipping address and my undying gratitude. For now, my tools are what they are.

Kind regards,
--
Ed_S

http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 
If you wanted to research this, the very first step is to prove that those who say they do, actually do (as opposed to imagining that they do).

In a decade and thousands of posts on this forum, I've still not seen anything that comes near demonstrating that a Foveon fan will always pick a foveon image as the best, if they are preventing from knowing which images are foveon and which aren't.

I'd love James Randi to arrange a test. I don't really care whether a test proved conclusively that Foveon fans really do prefer Foveon images or that they do no better than random. Both results would be equally fascinating.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/default.shtml
You are totally right. I have seen some of those threads where we try to guess. And Yes, there are Bayer images which are indistinguishable from Foveon images if taken correctly. But then there are those Foveon pearls which are showstoppers even when image is not show good in any other sense. And maybe effect is more pronounced in those otherwise bad pictures, everything else can be wrong, but image is somehow great.

There is something in some Foveon images that I have not seen in images taken with any other system, even taken by very good photographer. But as I said there is probably something wrong with my eyes or brains. ;)
 
I think we know that colour isn't a property of the sensor, it's a property of how software is used to interpret the sensor raw data.
David, SW may contribute, but if that was the sole cause for the green cast, every SD-14 would have the SAME cast.

I recall Gunther Borgermeister compared his three SD-14, plus comparing them with some other users SD-14s. Each and every one of these had different casts, and required different correction in SPP.

Either its the sensor or its the IR filter. There has been attempt to cross-change IR filters; as I recall the cast followed the camera, not the IR-filter.

Sensor, if no other component comes into play.
Messing about with a colour checker card and dng profiles has shown me that the final rendered image is simply a construct of profiling matrices. It's possible to make any camera look like the colour of any other.

For example, someone built a DNG recipe to simulate Kodachrome 25. It's quite realistic with the Sd14 if you like that kind of look - but it wasn't made using a Sigma camera. The DNG recipe can be converted to suit any camera. The same raw file can be coupled with the Kodachrome 25 profile to create a super contrasty super saturated look based on the characteristics of an obsolete film or it can produce a flat, almost monochrome result without adjusting anything other than a colour profile.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/default.shtml
--
Kind regards
Øyvind
My best images:
http://foto.nordjylland.biz/porta/Portfolio/Best/album/index.html
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking/sd14
SD14 Compendium:
http://www.foto.nordjylland.biz/SD14/sd-usertips.htm
 
If you wanted to research this, the very first step is to prove that those who say they do, actually do (as opposed to imagining that they do).

In a decade and thousands of posts on this forum, I've still not seen anything that comes near demonstrating that a Foveon fan will always pick a foveon image as the best, if they are preventing from knowing which images are foveon and which aren't.
" always pick a foveon image" ?? no one has said that, to my recall.

usually prefer foveon images because they usually look less digital, ie more pop, versimilitude, depth, 3D-ness, whatever? emphasis on usually.

that is, I think, what most people write
I'd love James Randi to arrange a test. I don't really care whether a test proved conclusively that Foveon fans really do prefer Foveon images or that they do no better than random. Both results would be equally fascinating.
not exactly off-topic... I recently had new close-up eyeglasses made. First time I'd had any eye tests in about 15 years. Luckily no glaucoma, which runs in both sides of my family. My late father was slightly color-blind, it was the less extreme form, but we family were used to some of his more 'interesting' color combinations in clothes. Obviously peoples' color perceptions differ greatly.

I thought it interesting that they did a contrast ie depth perception test too at the eye doctors 2 weeks ago. I ran through all lines of that one ... easy to hard to see...with flying colors. I've personally thought there is something about the depth and contrast of Foveon photos. Sharp edges, all that, you know I've written numerous times that this is apparently what the late **** Merrill also thought.

I've never opposed your tests... I just think that tests won't prove much, as your test would just be about.. .those particular test images. Most of us who shoot multiple cameras systems I think can see differences in the output of those cameras.

Also I find it interesting that the folks who seem to complain most about Sigma/Foveon MPs, benefits, cameras, whatever, are folks who have never used the Sigma/Foveon cameras (based on my recent readings in the News and Open forums).

FWIW, I want the SD1 for the additional resolution, for fine detail, for nice grass, leaves, foliage; pebbles, rocks, mountains, all that detail in landscapes. My 4.7(x3) MP SD14 equates easily to my "12MP" K20D in the field. So the SD1 has 3X the detail capture of the SD14... that's what I'd like to have.
Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)
 

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