Nikon TC-20E III AF-S 2x Teleconverter

I think you will find that the 2x TCIII focuses faster and locks on easier than what you are experiencing with the 2x TCII version.
I would be more than surprised if that were true.

Neither converter plays any direct part in auto focusing and each stops a similar amount of light.

The light falling on the in camera AF detectors and the information sent to the focus motor in the lens does not change.
It follows there is no change likely to affect AF speed.
--
Leonard Shepherd

Good photography is mainly about doing simple things well. The challenge is doing simple things well enough for good results.
 
I actually see an improvement in AF performance with the III version on the 70-200mm f2.8 VR II lens but then it may be the new telephoto and not the new teleconverter that it responsible for the better performance.

I found another easily repeatable test with the new 70-200mm f2.8 VR II and the TC-20E III teleconverter. Simply go outdoors at dusk when the light is such that an exposure of 1/20th at f2.8 at ISO 3200 is required. The 70-200 alone will have little difficulty focusing in this situation but add the TC-20E III teleconverter and the camera, in my case a D3, is unable to focus at all, nunca.

It shows me that low contrast or low light situations that are borderline with the lens become impossible for autofocus with a teleconverter attached and the loss of 75% of the light to the AF sensors. This is not remarkable, thinking that you can reduce the available light level by 75% and have little or no impact on AF performance in any and all situations with all subjects and scenes, now that is remarkable.
 
I think you will find that the 2x TCIII focuses faster and locks on easier than what you are experiencing with the 2x TCII version.
I would be more than surprised if that were true.

Neither converter plays any direct part in auto focusing and each stops a similar amount of light.

The light falling on the in camera AF detectors and the information sent to the focus motor in the lens does not change.
It follows there is no change likely to affect AF speed.
From other reports from other users who have had both TC's (I have never had the TCII, only the TCIII), they have said that the new TCIII does allow for faster focus. I can only assume that the extra contrast afforded by the new design is responsible. In my experience using the TCIII, I have found little difference in focus speed when using or not using it. There is a very slight difference in normal light and this is slightly worse again in lower light, but overall the difference is minimal.

--
Lance B
http://www.pbase.com/lance_b

 
Autofocus is impacted by the use of the teleconverter contrary to the opinions expressed. A simple test but one that applies to actual use of a telephoto lens in the field, is to focus on a near subject and then on a distant subject and see how long it takes for the camera and lens to lock focus at the new distance.
That's true, and there are sound engineering reasons why AF operation must slow down when a TC is added, however I should point out that the degree of change may be camera-model dependent. Some cameras, such as the D90, already slow their AF down so much at the 200mm zoom setting, that adding a TC requires little change. Higher-level bodies such as D3 will be better optimized over a range of lenses and lens/TC combinations, so you should always see a significant change in AF speed when adding a TC to the D3.
Without the teleconverter and using the 70-200mm on a D3 there was a 1 second lag in going from near to far and vice versa. With the TC-20E II teleconverter attached the lens could still achieve near focus on the railing though it first racked past the point of focus and then back out and then locked focus.

But the D3 was unable to focus at all when going from the near focus point to the distant tree trunk. I could get the D3 with the 70-200mm f2.8 II and the TC-20E II to focus on the tree trunk when I adjusted the zoom from 200mm to 70mm on the lens (effectively taking it from 400mm down to 140mm with the attached teleconverter).
The D3 should perform better than this, even when using the 400mm setting. One of my high-use D3 bodies developed an inability to focus with this lens/TC combination, and it was due to mechanical wear-out affecting the AF mirror position. You may want to have Nikon examine your camera with the lens/TC combination attached.
What surprised me was that the lens did not hunt but simply refused to focus when going from the near subject to the distant one.
This sounds very strange. If the image isn't in focus, the camera should at least go into focus search. No focus movement at all, and no focus search, would imply that the AF system thinks focus has already been achieved.
 
It shows me that low contrast or low light situations that are borderline with the lens become impossible for autofocus with a teleconverter attached and the loss of 75% of the light to the AF sensors. This is not remarkable, thinking that you can reduce the available light level by 75% and have little or no impact on AF performance in any and all situations with all subjects and scenes, now that is remarkable.
You're not reducing the light to the AF sensors, until you make the lens slower than f/5.6 - and in that case, it can vanish completely. The AF sensors only accept light from the f/5.6 circle of the lens exit pupil. Lenses faster than f/5.6 create a brighter image for the main sensor, or the viewfinder, by adding light which arrives from the area outside of the f/5.6 circle; the AF sensors do not use this light.

The focal length increase, however, can certainly cause difficulties for AF. Also, the AF system operation can become marginal with an f/5.6 lens, if the AF optical path alignment is inaccurate.
 
I think you will find that the 2x TCIII focuses faster and locks on easier than what you are experiencing with the 2x TCII version.
I would be more than surprised if that were true.

Neither converter plays any direct part in auto focusing and each stops a similar amount of light.

The light falling on the in camera AF detectors and the information sent to the focus motor in the lens does not change.
It follows there is no change likely to affect AF speed.
This time, I will agree with you. There would generally not be any reason for one 2x TC to perform better with AF than another.

However, there may have been some AF system optimizations performed for the new VR II and TC-20E III, which do not apply, or are not enabled, when the older TC is used. Nikon did mention some AF improvements offered by the 70-200 VR II. Whether or not this would result in perceptible AF speed improvement, should be made the subject of some objective testing.
 
The D3 should perform better than this, even when using the 400mm setting. One of my high-use D3 bodies developed an inability to focus with this lens/TC combination, and it was due to mechanical wear-out affecting the AF mirror position. You may want to have Nikon examine your camera with the lens/TC combination attached.
This AF mirror is in a fixed position inside the body, isn't it ? Mechanical wear-out implies movement. How is this possible ?

lock
 
This AF mirror is in a fixed position inside the body, isn't it ? Mechanical wear-out implies movement. How is this possible ?
There is a fixed mirror below the mirror box, just in front of the AF sensor module, but that's not the one I'm referring to. It's the mirror attached to the back of the reflex mirror which moves, and its alignment depends upon the reflex mirror alignment. The reflex mirror pivots wear down quite a bit; if you're interested, I can provide some photos since I have saved the original parts from my D3.
 
I keep hearing that a teleconverter does not reduce light to the autofocus sensors but if that was true there would be no restriction on using a teleconverter with an f5.6 lens and yet Nikon advises against using their teleconverters with these lenses without exception.

Second, my own direct experience is that in low light the 70-200mm f2.8 II lens can autofocus with my D3 but if I add on the TC-20E III teleconverter the camera cannot autofocus. If I try to autofocus on the exact same subject in average daylight conditions the camera can autofocus with this lens and this teleconverter.

If the lens AF sensors were at some f5.6 ring, which makes zero sense, neither of the above would be true and yet they very much are and these two facts are easy for anyone to verify for themselves first hand if they have a 70-200 lens and a 2x teleconverter in their very own home. They do not need to rely on the opinion of a person posting on a forum.
 
I keep hearing that a teleconverter does not reduce light to the autofocus sensors but if that was true there would be no restriction on using a teleconverter with an f5.6 lens and yet Nikon advises against using their teleconverters with these lenses without exception.
I've never heard anyone make the claim that it doesn't reduce the light to the AF sensor.
Second, my own direct experience is that in low light the 70-200mm f2.8 II lens can autofocus with my D3 but if I add on the TC-20E III teleconverter the camera cannot autofocus. If I try to autofocus on the exact same subject in average daylight conditions the camera can autofocus with this lens and this teleconverter.
Hmm, my D700 and to a lesser extent my D7000, focus in lok ow light with slight slowness, depending on how low the light is and what the subject matter is like. Sounds like an issue with your camera?
If the lens AF sensors were at some f5.6 ring, which makes zero sense, neither of the above would be true and yet they very much are and these two facts are easy for anyone to verify for themselves first hand if they have a 70-200 lens and a 2x teleconverter in their very own home. They do not need to rely on the opinion of a person posting on a forum.
True.

--
Lance B
http://www.pbase.com/lance_b

 
I keep hearing that a teleconverter does not reduce light to the autofocus sensors but if that was true there would be no restriction on using a teleconverter with an f5.6 lens and yet Nikon advises against using their teleconverters with these lenses without exception.
A TC takes the centre part of the image and magnifies it, it thus uses only part of the light and discards the other part. But this naturally is not a uniform reduction in light (as a ND filter would do) but a 'geometric' cut of some of the light. Depending on whether the light needed for PD AF operation (henceforth abbreviated as AF) is cut, is a question of the original lens f-stop and converter magnification, ie, either the TC does not cut any of the light needed for AF or it cuts all, notwithstanding naturally smaller effects like transmission losses and secondary effects like increased vignetting.
Second, my own direct experience is that in low light the 70-200mm f2.8 II lens can autofocus with my D3 but if I add on the TC-20E III teleconverter the camera cannot autofocus. If I try to autofocus on the exact same subject in average daylight conditions the camera can autofocus with this lens and this teleconverter.
Could be some slight differences in optical or mechanical alignment, could be converter firmware having an influence.
If the lens AF sensors were at some f5.6 ring, which makes zero sense,
Two things to explain:
  • Assume you sit directly at the sensor and look out towards the lens, a cone of light will hit you. When the lens is stopped down from, eg, f/2.8 to f/5.6, what changes is the opening angle of the cone, ie, it gets narrower for smaller apertures.
  • The PD-AF sensor never sees the full cone, it only sees a small ring (ie, subtracting a narrower cone from wider cone gives you a ring impacting the AF sensor at a certain angle).
If you want a technical description of how PD AF works, see this document (skip the split-prism part if you want):
http://dougkerr.net/Pumpkin/articles/Split_Prism.pdf

Here is a small sketch I made to illustrate this, imagine you take a number of flashlights and place them along a line parallel to a glass plane (ie, all having the same distance to the glass pane). Now, point them all such that they hit the same point on the glass pane. Now, place a short distance behind the glass plane baffles (as indicated in green in my drawing). It should be obvious that the light from the flashlights representing the outer lens areas (ie, the f/2.8 area) clearly illuminate the sensor plane but not the AF sensors. The same is true for 'flashlights' representing the small apertures (f/8 and beyond), ie, the ones in the center.

 
I do not know if my D3s has mirror pivot wear, which I doubt. However this mirror alignment within the D3s seems to be quite sensitive. An extremely minor mis-alignment will affect aspects of AF including unacceptable images due to the AF error. My camera was subject to this problem twice and was corrected by Nikon Melville. The camera was not subject to any rough use prior to mis-focusing. Marianne have you had any issues attributed to this issue. The D3s now has performed well related to AF since the last alignment.
 
The camera was not subject to any rough use prior to mis-focusing. Marianne have you had any issues attributed to this issue.
No, and I would be interested to know what Nikon did as the repair action. Other than mechanical wear-out, I haven't had any AF malfunctions.
 
I keep hearing that a teleconverter does not reduce light to the autofocus sensors but if that was true there would be no restriction on using a teleconverter with an f5.6 lens
Incorrect. As I already commented in my previous post, lenses much slower than f/5.6 will project no light onto the AF sensors. This is because their exit pupil is smaller than the f/5.6 ring, where the AF sensors are aimed. This is the same reason why the split-prism focusing aids found on MF viewscreens go black when a slow lens is used.
Second, my own direct experience is that in low light the 70-200mm f2.8 II lens can autofocus with my D3 but if I add on the TC-20E III teleconverter the camera cannot autofocus. If I try to autofocus on the exact same subject in average daylight conditions the camera can autofocus with this lens and this teleconverter.
Again, as I already posted elsewhere on this thread, the behavior you describe suggests an AF alignment problem with your camera. See the post below by RGT5.
If the lens AF sensors were at some f5.6 ring,
They are not "at" the f/5.6 ring, they use the f/5.6 ring of the exit pupil. This is done so that AF can remain operational with lenses as slow as f/5.6. Nikon AF systems do not include additional sensors aimed at wider rings, such as the f/2.8 ring, so they cannot benefit from the extra light gathered by lenses faster than f/5.6.

On the other hand, this does not imply that an f/2.8 lens with a 2x TC will AF as well as it does without a TC. The focal length increase provided by the TC does very much impact AF performance.
 
. . . easy for anyone to verify for themselves first hand if they have a 70-200 lens and a 2x teleconverter in their very own home.
Here is something else you can try at home:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=29789486
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=29789657
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=29789934

Here is Kerry Pierce's response after testing AF capabilities with various lens speeds:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=30060787
 
Re-reading your linked posts, I am wondering what effect the 'degree of telecentricity' on the off-center AF points has. Does it affect the f-stop cutoff for these off-center AF points?
 
The work order simply stated adjusted auto focus operation and mirror alignment. The problem was corrected. AF now operating normally. Also no fine tune adjustment needed with 600 VR F4 lens which was there at the same time. Of course the lens calibration was probably unrelated.
 

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