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A thread about Pen limitations

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Hmm, I think he's referring to two different limitations:
  • 720p video (more a market decision)
  • buffer speeds and sizes (a real limitation)
ThingsAbove said:
BigBarney said:
ThingsAbove said:
bluevellet said:
. . . but with a camera with no mechanical shutter a . . .
Click to expand...
What do you mean by "no mechanical shutter" ?? The Pen's have an electronically controlled shutter but there certainly is a shutter.
Click to expand...
... this is pretty obvious. All m43 cameras when they record video open their mechanical shutter at the start of the video sequence but then use sequential reads from the sensor to capture the video frames. Therefore the shutter is not being actuated during the process of video recording other than at the beginning and the end. The OP did not spell it out in this way since I assume that he/she relied on us to work it out. :-)
Click to expand...
Since the OP's first point before the "no mechanical shutter" was "unimpressive continuous shooting speed" I'd say it wasn't obvious that he was referring to video.
--
Colossians 3:2 -- Set your mind on the things above, not on the earth below
http://flickr.com/photos/thingsabove
Click to expand...
--
Thomas
 
The MAIN limitation of the Pen series is that I can't open the battery / memory door when I have a quick release plate mounted.

Seriously that's the main thing that bugs me about my PL2.
--
Colossians 3:2 -- Set your mind on the things above, not on the earth below
http://flickr.com/photos/thingsabove
 
tgutgu said:
Why so snappy in the headline? The OP simply asked why the limitations (they exist in all m4/3 cameras, also in Panasonic) exist.

And I would not be so pessimistic about the chances to solve the limitations. The 1080p isn't a problem, more a marketing and target group decision, as you implied. For the buffer limitations, the GH2 made some leaps forward (Olympus too to some extent), and the next GHx generation will again put some milestones in this field. I wonder what the EP-2 successor will have. In general I would say that buffer size and write speed is more important than fps. The most annoying thing is the wait time until your camera is ready again.

The current low image buffers can probably easily replaced with next generation hardware, perhaps the current situation is more dominated by price goals than technological constraints.
Click to expand...
. . . The OP asked specifically about continuous shooting which is of course the fastest way to fill up your buffer. Continuous shooting isn't very useful with a camera that doesn't have fast predictive focusing but you make a good point about buffers being too small but also getting better in m4/3 as the system evolves. I'm not sure what to think about this OP though which is why I responded with the snappy headline I guess. He sounds suspiciously like a talk the talk but can't walk the walk internet type character who knows how to write a provocative subject header. Maybe he just wanted to grab everyone's attention but it's still a trollish thing to do.
 
bluevellet said:
Winston Loo said:
Why start a thread to bash the camera you chose?.. is this a Troll Thread?
Click to expand...
Because this is a forum about those cameras? And it's not a bash thread, it's frank talk between adults? Just check my posting history if you're not convinced.

I realize cameras with Liveview makes it difficult to follow action with burst shots with the screen freezing but other liveview-only cameras do faster continuous shooting.
Click to expand...
Bluevelvet, everybody knows if you want to do burst shooting with a live view camera, look though the LCD screen and pan with the action. All the film SLRs locked up the mirror durring motor drive work. Or, use an old fashinioned optical finder in the hot shoe. They are available from used photo stores for next to nothing. This was one of the advantages of the Leica motorized reangefinders-the screen never went dark.

Tedolph
 
Tim in upstate NY said:
tgutgu said:
Why so snappy in the headline? The OP simply asked why the limitations (they exist in all m4/3 cameras, also in Panasonic) exist.

And I would not be so pessimistic about the chances to solve the limitations. The 1080p isn't a problem, more a marketing and target group decision, as you implied. For the buffer limitations, the GH2 made some leaps forward (Olympus too to some extent), and the next GHx generation will again put some milestones in this field. I wonder what the EP-2 successor will have. In general I would say that buffer size and write speed is more important than fps. The most annoying thing is the wait time until your camera is ready again.

The current low image buffers can probably easily replaced with next generation hardware, perhaps the current situation is more dominated by price goals than technological constraints.
Click to expand...
. . . The OP asked specifically about continuous shooting which is of course the fastest way to fill up your buffer. Continuous shooting isn't very useful with a camera that doesn't have fast predictive focusing
Click to expand...
Why? Sure predictive AF would help, but is isn't a prerequisite to ask for a decent camera buffer. Remember the anaolog times. I had a Canon A-1, with a 5 fps motor drive (and the famous 36 frames buffer limit ;-) ). There we had no AF at all! There are still a lot of situations, where quick buffers are advantageous, sometimes you just shoot blindly some bursts, and have the key image in between. Often you have moving objects, which only move one part or which do not move oblique to your frame.
Tim in upstate NY said:
but you make a good point about buffers being too small but also getting better in m4/3 as the system evolves. I'm not sure what to think about this OP though which is why I responded with the snappy headline I guess.
Click to expand...
I am troll insensitive and took his headline more as an irony, because the OP might know, how sensitive the forum reacts. Still he puts his finger in a real existing limitation, worth to discuss (would be a good occasion for HappyVan to show up - I wonder what the D5100 buffer speed and size is.) Honestly, the buffer is the most disappointing thing of the GH2. Auto-bracketing isn't great either, because it does not use the full burst rate and is not "self running". I hate all this (but the rest of the camera is perfect, you know, it has this nice sexy hump in the middle and looks like a DSLR ;-) )
Tim in upstate NY said:
He sounds suspiciously like a talk the talk but can't walk the walk internet type character who knows how to write a provocative subject header. Maybe he just wanted to grab everyone's attention but it's still a trollish thing to do.
Click to expand...
--
Thomas
 
Sure, it a complaint thread, because there is something to complain. Inadequate burst / buffer capacity. We can't deny that. Not everybody needs it, but the problem is there.
tedolf said:
bluevellet said:
Winston Loo said:
Why start a thread to bash the camera you chose?.. is this a Troll Thread?
Click to expand...
Because this is a forum about those cameras? And it's not a bash thread, it's frank talk between adults? Just check my posting history if you're not convinced.

I realize cameras with Liveview makes it difficult to follow action with burst shots with the screen freezing but other liveview-only cameras do faster continuous shooting.
Click to expand...
Bluevelvet, everybody knows if you want to do burst shooting with a live view camera, look though the LCD screen and pan with the action. All the film SLRs locked up the mirror durring motor drive work. Or, use an old fashinioned optical finder in the hot shoe. They are available from used photo stores for next to nothing. This was one of the advantages of the Leica motorized reangefinders-the screen never went dark.

Tedolph
Click to expand...
--
Thomas
 
Yes, I do think so. 7 RAWs in a row, than half minute wait before the camera is unlocking, isn't very smart, even for PENs, more so for "fast" cameras, such as a GH2.

What's the problem? Can't you accept that m4/3 has a problem here? Do I need to call HappyVan for rescue and more detailed explanation?
BushmanOrig said:
Were these cams really build for what you guys expect? Does these requirements really fall into the target market for these cams.... ?

--
Community of Photographers
http://www.photographyisfun.ch
Click to expand...
--
Thomas
 
tgutgu said:
Sure, it a complaint thread, because there is something to complain. Inadequate burst / buffer capacity. We can't deny that. Not everybody needs it, but the problem is there.
Click to expand...
--

need to take more than five or six shots in a row?

Pole valuting?

We use it in conjunction with exposure bracketing but then we only need three shots in a row.

Who is filling up the buffer?

Why?

Honsestly, seems like a lack of skill, not a mechanical problem.

Tedolph
 
tedolf said:
tgutgu said:
Sure, it a complaint thread, because there is something to complain. Inadequate burst / buffer capacity. We can't deny that. Not everybody needs it, but the problem is there.
Click to expand...
--

need to take more than five or six shots in a row?

Pole valuting?

We use it in conjunction with exposure bracketing but then we only need three shots in a row.

Who is filling up the buffer?

Why?

Honsestly, seems like a lack of skill, not a mechanical problem.
Click to expand...
HDR - such as working a few moments of that quickly changing sunset activity. Or, say, taking a series of a street drummer, to get the most pleasing moment of his/her activity in the burst.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
 
Bob Tullis said:
tedolf said:
tgutgu said:
Sure, it a complaint thread, because there is something to complain. Inadequate burst / buffer capacity. We can't deny that. Not everybody needs it, but the problem is there.
Click to expand...
--

need to take more than five or six shots in a row?

Pole valuting?

We use it in conjunction with exposure bracketing but then we only need three shots in a row.

Who is filling up the buffer?

Why?

Honsestly, seems like a lack of skill, not a mechanical problem.
Click to expand...
HDR - such as working a few moments of that quickly changing sunset activity. Or, say, taking a series of a street drummer, to get the most pleasing moment of his/her activity in the burst.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
Click to expand...
Oh, yeah.

Forgot about that.

Bet it's pretty cool, huh?

Tedolph
 
tedolf said:
Bob Tullis said:
tedolf said:
tgutgu said:
Sure, it a complaint thread, because there is something to complain. Inadequate burst / buffer capacity. We can't deny that. Not everybody needs it, but the problem is there.
Click to expand...
--

need to take more than five or six shots in a row?

Pole valuting?

We use it in conjunction with exposure bracketing but then we only need three shots in a row.

Who is filling up the buffer?

Why?

Honsestly, seems like a lack of skill, not a mechanical problem.
Click to expand...
HDR - such as working a few moments of that quickly changing sunset activity. Or, say, taking a series of a street drummer, to get the most pleasing moment of his/her activity in the burst.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
Click to expand...
Oh, yeah.

Forgot about that.

Bet it's pretty cool, huh?
Click to expand...
Facetious to the end, aren't you?

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
 
No its all OK, have fun, we never know it could happen I have to thank you guys for a future all inclusive PEN.....on the other hand....we have to dream....aplogies...enjoy
tgutgu said:
Yes, I do think so. 7 RAWs in a row, than half minute wait before the camera is unlocking, isn't very smart, even for PENs, more so for "fast" cameras, such as a GH2.

What's the problem? Can't you accept that m4/3 has a problem here? Do I need to call HappyVan for rescue and more detailed explanation?
BushmanOrig said:
Were these cams really build for what you guys expect? Does these requirements really fall into the target market for these cams.... ?

--
Community of Photographers
http://www.photographyisfun.ch
Click to expand...
--
Thomas
Click to expand...
--
Community of Photographers
http://www.photographyisfun.ch
 
Bob Tullis said:
tedolf said:
Bob Tullis said:
tedolf said:
tgutgu said:
Sure, it a complaint thread, because there is something to complain. Inadequate burst / buffer capacity. We can't deny that. Not everybody needs it, but the problem is there.
Click to expand...
--

need to take more than five or six shots in a row?

Pole valuting?

We use it in conjunction with exposure bracketing but then we only need three shots in a row.

Who is filling up the buffer?

Why?

Honsestly, seems like a lack of skill, not a mechanical problem.
Click to expand...
HDR - such as working a few moments of that quickly changing sunset activity. Or, say, taking a series of a street drummer, to get the most pleasing moment of his/her activity in the burst.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
Click to expand...
Oh, yeah.

Forgot about that.

Bet it's pretty cool, huh?
Click to expand...
Facetious to the end, aren't you?

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
Click to expand...
Would you really want it any other way?

On second thought, don't answer that.

TEdolph
 
bluevellet said:
Essentially, what is the reason for two weaknesses in the Pen series, namely unimpressive continuous shooting and movie recording limited at 720p. Now these have never been deal breakers ...
Click to expand...
If you say so then I agree. Not a deal breaker. No one buys a PEN for video. It's just a bonus, and usually gets in the way when we push the red button by mistake. Gotta reprogram that for something else.

The limitations that hamper picture taking should be addressed.

-What can be done about the double mechanical shutter to minimize the lag?

-How come a company that brought out the articulated screen in the E330 four years ago, and reproduced it in the E620 can't put one in the PEN?

-I don't need an AF light in the PEN, but why can't it control the one that's already there in the two available flashes?

-Put a horizontal thumb wheel in the body, like on the DSLR's (and EP1) , not that flat ring. Takes less real estate. and is the obvious way to control aperture/exposure.

-Oh heck, put the aperture ring back on the lenses too. Make it fly by wire instead of direct mechanical control, just like the focus.
 
tgutgu said:
But this is by far not the only reason. The large EVF, the excellent body concept are at least equally important. I say this because too many give the impression that a GH2 is mostly (if not only) beneficial for videographers. Simply not true.
Click to expand...
I think you are mistaken because I never said it was the only reason. The EVF is very good compared to other EVF's on the market and I liked it in the G1 I had. Excellent body concept compared to what? Comparing to super zoom point and shoots then I would agree but not compared to a standard SLR in my opinion.

I sold my G1 and kept the E-P1 because I prefer Olympus color and because it is not trying to be an SLR. Video makes no difference to me and thats why I responded to tedolf's comment.

--
Charles
My family images are at http://www.stakeman.smugmug.com
Be sure of your subject.
Never, force the shot.
 
tgutgu said:
. . . . (but the rest of the camera is perfect, you know, it has this nice sexy hump in the middle and looks like a DSLR ;-) )
Click to expand...
. . . Some guys like 'em fat and sexy and some like 'em lean and mean, ya know what I mean?. . . LOL
 
tedolf wrote:
[snip]
tedolf said:
Bluevelvet, everybody knows if you want to do burst shooting with a live view camera, look though the LCD screen and pan with the action. All the film SLRs locked up the mirror durring motor drive work.
Click to expand...
Another round of mis-information from you. My Minolta Maxxum 7 could fire at 4 fps with no mirror lockup. The Maxxum 9 could do 5 fps with no mirror lock up. There were plenty of film cameras that operated at or around that speed without locking up the mirror.

In fact, off-hand, I'm only aware of old SLRs like the Nikon F that needed to lock up the mirror, and that was only when it was using its motor drive as maximum speed. And that was in the '60's or early '70's. I'm sure there were a few others of that era that had a similar limitation. But to say that "all the film SLRs locked up the mirror durring motor drive work" is just stupid and uninformed.

larsbc
 
larsbc said:
larsbc said:
Bluevelvet, everybody knows if you want to do burst shooting with a live view camera, look though the LCD screen and pan with the action. All the film SLRs locked up the mirror durring motor drive work.
Click to expand...
Another round of mis-information from you. My Minolta Maxxum 7 could fire at 4 fps with no mirror lockup. The Maxxum 9 could do 5 fps with no mirror lock up. There were plenty of film cameras that operated at or around that speed without locking up the mirror.

In fact, off-hand, I'm only aware of old SLRs like the Nikon F that needed to lock up the mirror, and that was only when it was using its motor drive as maximum speed. And that was in the '60's or early '70's. I'm sure there were a few others of that era that had a similar limitation. But to say that "all the film SLRs locked up the mirror durring motor drive work" is just stupid and uninformed.

larsbc
Click to expand...
You got a problem with the 60's and 70's?

For mirror motor drive lock up see Oly OM-1. Most SLR's locked up at 5fps and not many even did 5 fps.

Tedolph
 
tedolf wrote:
[snip]
tedolf said:
tedolf said:
In fact, off-hand, I'm only aware of old SLRs like the Nikon F that needed to lock up the mirror, and that was only when it was using its motor drive as maximum speed. And that was in the '60's or early '70's. I'm sure there were a few others of that era that had a similar limitation. But to say that "all the film SLRs locked up the mirror durring motor drive work" is just stupid and uninformed.
Click to expand...
You got a problem with the 60's and 70's?

For mirror motor drive lock up see Oly OM-1. Most SLR's locked up at 5fps and not many even did 5 fps.
Click to expand...
I have an OM1md (the OM1 could not accept a motordrive without changing the base plate), and you're still wrong. The OM-1 could do 5fps without mirror lock-up. But even if it couldn't, the fact remains that your remark about ALL film SLRs needing to lock up the mirror for motor drive use is simply ridiculous and wrong. In fact, MOST film SLRs from the 80's onwards could shoot at their full motordrive speed without mirror lockup, just like the digital SLRs can today. What makes it particularly galling is that you probably know better, and are once again using misinformation to try to win an argument.

larsbc
 
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