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An emerging trend....

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rattymouse

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...that I see amongst all the threads here is that "Foveon is a complete failure". Read it at least half a dozen times. Clearly, if Sigma exits the SLR market, it will be because of their failures with Foveon. The technology has proven itself to be a dead end, correct?

--

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Actually what i do see are lots of posts of people felling disrespected and betrayed...for good reasons...if sigma was to release a 7000 to 9000 usd camera they shouldnt say it was near 7D price....its pretty much impossible to understand why a company did all this....its like slapping every sigma user in the face and saying "we couldnt care less for all of you who support us and helped the foveon technology be alive..."..
rattymouse said:
...that I see amongst all the threads here is that "Foveon is a complete failure". Read it at least half a dozen times. Clearly, if Sigma exits the SLR market, it will be because of their failures with Foveon. The technology has proven itself to be a dead end, correct?

--

http://fujifilmimages.aminus3.com/
Click to expand...
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I could be a much better photographer if i was out there taking pictures, instead of talking here at dpreview....
 
rattymouse said:
Clearly, if Sigma exits the SLR market, it will be because of their failures with Foveon. The technology has proven itself to be a dead end, correct?
Click to expand...
no

--
Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com

La chance ne sourit qu'aux esprits bien préparés.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Louis Pasteur

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/dp1
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd14
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
 
worldcup1982 said:
Actually what i do see are lots of posts of people felling disrespected and betrayed...for good reasons...if sigma was to release a 7000 to 9000 usd camera they shouldnt say it was near 7D price....its pretty much impossible to understand why a company did all this....its like slapping every sigma user in the face and saying "we couldnt care less for all of you who support us and helped the foveon technology be alive..."..
rattymouse said:
...that I see amongst all the threads here is that "Foveon is a complete failure". Read it at least half a dozen times. Clearly, if Sigma exits the SLR market, it will be because of their failures with Foveon. The technology has proven itself to be a dead end, correct?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Just the fact that Sigma thought they could make the SD1 and sell it for $1500 (7D), but end up having to sell it for $9700 should tell you that Foveon is a failure. It's the only message coming from Sigma in this fiasco. We can't make an APS-C sensor unless we charge you $9700 for it. How can a professional MF photographer take Sigma seriously, when they themselves said the camera would cost $1500 (same as Canon 7D)? Their marketing strategy is dammed either way. Loyalists are betrayed. New target is sought with a bait and switch routine.
 
Foveon isn't at a dead end, it's Sigma marketing that's at a dead end.
 
mike earussi said:
Foveon isn't at a dead end, it's Sigma marketing that's at a dead end.
Click to expand...
Hi, Or the cost of making the sensor is just to great to be competitive.
--
Rick Wilkinson
From Gobblers Knob ...... De Colores

If they can't kill you for it, it doesn't matter ....
Karen Schmidt

http://www.pbase.com/short243
 
this is getting boring..
does EVERYONE really need to explain how and why 10K is not a good price.
the grapes are sour

some rep that didnt even know the price said something to someone somewhere and over-reacting sigma fundamentalists took it like its an official price guarantee.

same people that made up the 7d pricing rumor are the ones raising hell now for it not being true.
 
estankov said:
this is getting boring..
does EVERYONE really need to explain how and why 10K is not a good price.
the grapes are sour

some rep that didnt even know the price said something to someone somewhere and over-reacting sigma fundamentalists took it like its an official price guarantee.

same people that made up the 7d pricing rumor are the ones raising hell now for it not being true.
Click to expand...
Japanese lens company Sigma Tuesday revealed the SD1, its latest flagship camera, at the Photokina 2010 show in Cologne, Germany.

The new DSLR camera, which replaces the SD15 as Sigma’s leading camera offering, should be out around February. The pricing, though, remains unclear. But Mark Amir-Hamzeh, general manager of Sigma Corporation of America, the firm’s US group, promised a “very competitive” price – in the region of Canon’s EOS 7D, which presently costs a shade below $1,500 for the body only and $1,700 with a 28-135mm kit lens.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20017073-264.html?tag=contentMain ;contentBody;3n

http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/21/sigma-sd1-has-a-15-3mp-sensor-weather-sealed-magnesium-alloy-bo/

Yeah. Totally made up by some random guy. Sigma knew nothing about it. What's REALLY getting boring is the justifications for Sigma's incompetence.

--

 
I was a bit surprised that Sigma managed to come out with a significantly larger pixel count sensor and camera in such a short time frame as compared to its previous efforts. From what I understand it wasn't all that easy for Sigma to get the chips for the SD10/14/15 fabbed so I gotta think that they are at the very bleeding edge for the SD1 sensor and that is the most expensive point in the price curve when yield is low but costs stay the same. Maybe that is what is being reflected in the SD1 price?
 
Sigma is just targeting different user base than the existing, mostly amateurs, base.
Also they have proved with the 15MB sensor that it is not dead and.

Foveon is dead end for most of the user here as they can not and will not pay the price Sigma is asking.
 
I don't think the camera proves anything of the sort.

What you do have is rather big questions about Sigma's marketing. To my mind, to date Sigma have relied on a core group of dedicated fans to make all the positive noises about Foveon. These people have an emotional connection to the company that has allowed them to ignore/excuse the drawbacks of Sigma products. Where the rest of the world laughed and scorned, this group soldiered on content the benefits outweighed everything the mainstream had to offer.

There is genuine loyalty in this group. The expectation about the Sd1 was very high, fueled by Sigma itself (and users with close connections to Sigma). The launch price has dashed those expectations and soured even the core group's allegiance. They feel their long suffering loyalty deserved a reward and it looks like Sigma marketing have chosen to turn away from them.

Hardly surprising there is such an emotional backlash. Perhaps with time, emotions will cool and more realistic heads will come to the fore. Perhaps, the fans will get over it and gradually return to the fold (even if they don't buy the SD1). But perhaps they won't. Sigma marketing are gambling heavily.

For me, no matter how good the SD1 turns out to be once the dust settles, this move merely confirms everything I have thought about Sigma (rather than Foveon) since day one.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/default.shtml
 
kurtvonnegut said:
You should be banned from these forums. Troll much?
Click to expand...
kurtvonnegut said:
Same as your photography skills and observations. Go back to canikon forums please.
Click to expand...
You've joined these forums today and right of the bat go calling for a 5+ years user to be banned...Do you have any common sense and education...or is it a plain difficulty to accept open-minded discussions?

...As for the OP photography, it is way better than yours, since you don't have any to show for.

...Oh, and regarding Foveon survival, yes, it is indeed doomed, since it seems that not even at this price point can they produce a Jpeg without color casts.

PK

--
“Loose praise may feed my ego but constructive criticism advances my skills”
************************************************************
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbase.com/photokhan
(PBase Supporter)
 
rattymouse said:
...that I see amongst all the threads here is that "Foveon is a complete failure". Read it at least half a dozen times. Clearly, if Sigma exits the SLR market, it will be because of their failures with Foveon. The technology has proven itself to be a dead end, correct?
Click to expand...
Might be no problems with the technology.

The original Foveon company had a mysterious plan with the technology, based on some kind of mumbo jumbo wishful thinking. That did not work out all that well.

Now it seems like the Sigma hobby project is managed just like a hobby project. It does not look all that serious. So ...

I would not give the technology thumbs down due to the failures due to bad management.

If a serious company, e.g. like Sony or Intel or even Canon, had taken the technology under its wings, then the outcome might have been different.

But now it looks harsh I must admit. I dont know where they shall go from here. A slightly improved SD15 called SD16 does not sound all that attractive. And a scaled down SD1 for $3000 sounds like a joke. How can you scale down something thats so basic as SD1 and $3000 is already too much?

I think Sigma just shoot themselves in the foot or even worse.

--
Roland

support http://www.openraw.org/
(Sleeping - so the need to support it is even higher)

X3F tools : http://www.proxel.se/x3f.html
 
Well put! The passion for Foveon is why I lurk here (I'm a Fuji SLR shooter; also a passionate group).
DMillier said:
I don't think the camera proves anything of the sort.

What you do have is rather big questions about Sigma's marketing. To my mind, to date Sigma have relied on a core group of dedicated fans to make all the positive noises about Foveon. These people have an emotional connection to the company that has allowed them to ignore/excuse the drawbacks of Sigma products. Where the rest of the world laughed and scorned, this group soldiered on content the benefits outweighed everything the mainstream had to offer.

There is genuine loyalty in this group. The expectation about the Sd1 was very high, fueled by Sigma itself (and users with close connections to Sigma). The launch price has dashed those expectations and soured even the core group's allegiance. They feel their long suffering loyalty deserved a reward and it looks like Sigma marketing have chosen to turn away from them.

Hardly surprising there is such an emotional backlash. Perhaps with time, emotions will cool and more realistic heads will come to the fore. Perhaps, the fans will get over it and gradually return to the fold (even if they don't buy the SD1). But perhaps they won't. Sigma marketing are gambling heavily.

For me, no matter how good the SD1 turns out to be once the dust settles, this move merely confirms everything I have thought about Sigma (rather than Foveon) since day one.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/default.shtml
Click to expand...
--

http://fujifilmimages.aminus3.com/
 
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