The Panasonic G3 is a Powershot killer

the G3 body at retail is about $100 more than advanced compact. A bigger threat is the present pricing of NX100 vs advanced compact--it being $399 with kit lens...and that camera may not be the best aps-c small camera but it does pretty well trounce the powershot and similar cameras while easily matching m43 output.
The NX100 does not match the G3's output, easily or otherwise. Go here and move around in the image a bit. For example, look at the toy robot and any glass area in the alcohol bottles.

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/panasonicdmcg3/page6.asp

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john carson
 
I don't see the m4/3 and advanced compacts as competitors. I have a G1 with 20 1.7, 14-45, 45-200, and numerous legacy lenses. I almost always use it instead of my Nikon gear because it's light and easy to carry, though the image quality does not quite match (and I still use the Nikon for portraits because of the lack of a native m4/3 portrait prime or fast zoom).

Even so, I bought a Samsung TL500/EX1 to replace my aging Canon "carry everywhere" camera. The Samsung, when I shoot RAW, comes close to the IQ of my G1, is faster at the wide and tele ends than the G1, and good enough for much of my shooting. It is small enough for me to carry it in a large belt pouch along with extra batteries and charger.

I certainly didn't need another camera. The Canon was pretty good for everyday use, and I also have a Samsung travel zoom. But I really like having it anyway, and I'm likely not alone in seeing uses for DSLR, m4/3, and advanced compact cameras.

When/if a native m4/3 lens equivalent to my Tamron 28-75 2.8 comes out, I will probably sell my Nikon gear, but I'll keep the Samsung.
 
I will grant you that pocketability is important to some but it is not something many more pay much attention to.
Compact — i.e., pocketable — cameras outsell DSLR/EVIL cameras by about 8 to 1. Part of that is price. The rest is pocketability.

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john carson
 
I will grant you that pocketability is important to some but it is not something many more pay much attention to.
Compact — i.e., pocketable — cameras outsell DSLR/EVIL cameras by about 8 to 1. Part of that is price. The rest is pocketability.
Enough with the "MFT isn't pocketable" nonsense. Your point is so clearly, demonstrably wrong that I can't imagine why you keep pushing it.

Look, if you wanted to really argue about this you could say that just about any camera is "pocketable", it just depends on what pocket you're talking about. However, when people say that some MFT cameras are pocketable, what they really mean is that they're "more pocketable" in relation to other cameras, such as dSLRs - and they're absolutely right. Of course, not all MFT cameras have the same level of pocketability, with Panasonic's dSLR-shaped cameras being the least pocketable of all of them.

I'll trot out the old video I put together when the forum was having this discussion when the GF1 was introduced:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frV3LT-EdM0

Just for the record, that video shows my original GF1 +20mm combo fit in three jacket pockets (two on a very tight fitting tech jacket), two front shirt pockets, a small pocket on a backpack, a small pocket on a sweater, a water bottle pocket on a baby bag and a pocket on a pair of cargo shorts.

Needless to say, the GF2 + 14mm pockets even better, being able to be pocketed in even smaller pockets, or pulled in/out of the same pockets more easily. This is precisely how I use it. I do not have a camera bag for my MFT gear. All I have is lens bags, which usually ride in my backpack. The cameras are either on my hip (Spider Holster), or in a pocket.

Now, if your definition of "pocketable" only applies to cameras that can fit in the back pocket of your jeans, that's a very narrow definition and really limits your choices. In that case, not even the S95 or LX5 are "pocketable" in that sense. And that inevitably brings us back to the point of what's really going to kill Compact Cameras - and that's the Smartphone. My phone does fit in my back jean pocket, even on my tight "show off my ass" jeans. Add to that the fact that I can post process and upload photos directly from the phone, and it's clear why the Smartphone is killing Compact Cameras and video cameras such as the Flip, now that they have video.

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Sam Bennett
http://www.swiftbennett.com
http://www.flickr.com/sambennett/
 
I have a Pana G2 and had a Powershot G12 until recently, when it killed itself (like all Powershots do). I bitterly miss the Powershot. The Powershot G12
  • is still considerably smaller and lighter than a Pana m43 at least when you carry the equivalent focal length
  • has nicer JPEGs
  • has an electronic horizon
  • offers much cheaper, longer lasting batteries
  • zooming per button, not manually
  • has by far good-enough image quality in everyday situations
For a dull holiday/landscape/flower macro shooter, like me, the Powershot remains a good option. You can even attach a polarizer or macro lenses. What i miss on the Powershot G12, compared to the Pana G2:
  • touch screen
  • play with bokeh in connection with hi-class glass (but then, there's little so far from Pana or Oly, and what's there is priced from a monopoly holder, so i use a Nikon lens plus my adapter, which deprives me of AF and IS)
  • film mode bracketing
For my next longer holiday, i will sure get another Powershot. I don't need video.
 
I will grant you that pocketability is important to some but it is not something many more pay much attention to.
Compact — i.e., pocketable — cameras outsell DSLR/EVIL cameras by about 8 to 1. Part of that is price. The rest is pocketability.
Enough with the "MFT isn't pocketable" nonsense. Your point is so clearly, demonstrably wrong that I can't imagine why you keep pushing it.

Look, if you wanted to really argue about this you could say that just about any camera is "pocketable", it just depends on what pocket you're talking about.
You could say that if you just wanted your remarks to be irrelevant and annoying.
However, when people say that some MFT cameras are pocketable, what they really mean is that they're "more pocketable" in relation to other cameras, such as dSLRs - and they're absolutely right. Of course, not all MFT cameras have the same level of pocketability, with Panasonic's dSLR-shaped cameras being the least pocketable of all of them.
The point is that, as I have already stated, compacts outsell DSLRs/EVIL cameras by about 8 to 1. Your extended notion of pocketability just isn't cutting it out there in the market.
I'll trot out the old video I put together when the forum was having this discussion when the GF1 was introduced:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frV3LT-EdM0

Just for the record, that video shows my original GF1 +20mm combo fit in three jacket pockets (two on a very tight fitting tech jacket), two front shirt pockets, a small pocket on a backpack, a small pocket on a sweater, a water bottle pocket on a baby bag and a pocket on a pair of cargo shorts.
1. A 20mm lens is really restricting things. Yes I know that "real photographers" love primes, but the mass market wants zooms. That is why the GF2+20mm is not a competitor to the G12, S95, LX5, XZ-1 etc. for most buyers.

2. Jacket pockets don't count if you aren't wearing a jacket. If you live in a warm climate, that is at least half the year. A lot of shirts either don't have pockets at all (T-shirts in a warm climate) or have very small pockets. You may be willing to have your entire wardrobe determined by the need to carry a camera around, but hardly anyone else is. The reality is that, unless your wardrobe is determined by the need to carry a camera around, then much of the time a GF2 just won't fit in your pocket.
Now, if your definition of "pocketable" only applies to cameras that can fit in the back pocket of your jeans, that's a very narrow definition and really limits your choices.
My definition is that it fits into the front pocket of a regular pair of pants. That has me covered all year round. It limits my choices to almost any compact camera on the market.

I don't dispute that there is an advantage to "smaller", even when "smaller" isn't what I would term "pocketable". I also don't dispute that cameras that are larger than pocketable may be great cameras to have. If image quality is a priority, those larger cameras are a necessity.

However, this whole thread is about how the G3 will supposedly kill off the market for premium compacts. It won't because premium compacts are pocketable — call it "more pocketable" if you must — and that difference is critical to most of the market, even if it isn't to you.

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john carson
 
I've always wondered why there aren't any 1" sensors on compacts. Agree that lens sizes will increase, and so will IQ, so this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Stick to a maximum of a 5x or 4x mated zoom lens and push out these enthusiast compacts. They will still be smaller that the M43 cameras with mounts, and due to a closer distance of the lens to the sensor, the IQ should be quite good.

If 1" sensor yields too large a camera, why not go even for a 3/4" sensor? None of the M43 companies are going to do this as it will eat into their MILC sales, but what is stopping Canon, Nikon or even Pentax? There is definitely an 'enthusiast' segment that does not care for interchangeable lenses. A single quality zoom mated to the body is good enough. What is wrong with a 28-112mm zoom on such lenses? I wonder when we shall see those sensor sizes, the IQ should definitely be a step up.

AP
 
The compact camera is not dead, dying, or even slightly under the weather. They fill a certain niche of inexpensive, pocketable, easy-to-use cameras quite well.

ILC cameras incur extra cost, complexity, weight, and size. As has been noted many times on this forum, if a buyer is not interested in having more than one lens then an ILC camera is probably not for them.
They don't need to increase pixel count. 6 MP is enough for conumer photography. The only thing that matters about pixel count is how large you can print.
And how much you can crop. The ability to crop can be very, very useful at times.
 
However, when people say that some MFT cameras are pocketable, what they really mean is that they're "more pocketable" in relation to other cameras, such as dSLRs - and they're absolutely right. Of course, not all MFT cameras have the same level of pocketability, with Panasonic's dSLR-shaped cameras being the least pocketable of all of them.
The point is that, as I have already stated, compacts outsell DSLRs/EVIL cameras by about 8 to 1. Your extended notion of pocketability just isn't cutting it out there in the market.
The reasons people choose compacts are varied, pocketability isn't the only factor. But in any case, blaming CSC's lack of penetration on pocketability alone is pretty presumptuous, especially considering the lack of visibility most consumers have with them in the first place. They are just now creeping into stores like Best Buy, but are no where on the radar for stores like Target and Wal-Mart. So, it's waaay too soon to blame anything on the form factor alone. I know people who have specifically bought into MFT because of the pocketability factor. These are people who have a Smartphone for convenience, wanted better image quality than any compact could provide but didn't want something as large as an SLR because they couldn't stow it in a pocket. The market is out there, CSC's just have to get the word out.
I'll trot out the old video I put together when the forum was having this discussion when the GF1 was introduced:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frV3LT-EdM0

Just for the record, that video shows my original GF1 +20mm combo fit in three jacket pockets (two on a very tight fitting tech jacket), two front shirt pockets, a small pocket on a backpack, a small pocket on a sweater, a water bottle pocket on a baby bag and a pocket on a pair of cargo shorts.
1. A 20mm lens is really restricting things. Yes I know that "real photographers" love primes, but the mass market wants zooms. That is why the GF2+20mm is not a competitor to the G12, S95, LX5, XZ-1 etc. for most buyers.
And yet, as has been noted all over the place, cellphone cameras are immensely popular and many camera manufacturers are on record blaming them for the decline in compact sales - and most of these cameraphones feature very unsophisticated, fixed focal length lenses.

I certainly agree that a lot of people want zooms, but for those who want pocketability I don't think primes are as big a leap as some people make it out. I think manufacturers need to hone their messaging on this, and they need to make it easy to have both by introducing kits that include a compact primes ("Take it with you anywhere! Slip it in your pocket! Keep it in your purse!) and a mid-range zoom ("For those times where you want the flexibility of a zoom!").
2. Jacket pockets don't count if you aren't wearing a jacket. If you live in a warm climate, that is at least half the year. A lot of shirts either don't have pockets at all (T-shirts in a warm climate) or have very small pockets. You may be willing to have your entire wardrobe determined by the need to carry a camera around, but hardly anyone else is. The reality is that, unless your wardrobe is determined by the need to carry a camera around, then much of the time a GF2 just won't fit in your pocket.
I think you're ignoring the fact that a lot of people have a variety of pockets at their disposal - especially women who nearly always have some sort of bag with them. I didn't put together my wardrobe around my camera gear, it just so happens that I nearly always have some place to stash a camera. If this wasn't true, then I'd have a camera bag - and I do not .
Now, if your definition of "pocketable" only applies to cameras that can fit in the back pocket of your jeans, that's a very narrow definition and really limits your choices.
My definition is that it fits into the front pocket of a regular pair of pants. That has me covered all year round. It limits my choices to almost any compact camera on the market.
And that is your definition. So if you'd like to preface your comments stating that it's not pocketable enough for you, then I have no argument with you. With that said, I've found that the GF1 + 20mm actually does fit in the front pocket of a number of my pairs of slacks (the ones I'd wear to a business meeting or a night out) - and is this actually my preferred mode of carrying the camera at dinner parties, etc. where I don't want to have to wear a holster and look like an utter dork.
However, this whole thread is about how the G3 will supposedly kill off the market for premium compacts. It won't because premium compacts are pocketable — call it "more pocketable" if you must — and that difference is critical to most of the market, even if it isn't to you.
Then make your comments specific to the G3 and not to MFT in general, as your comment below clearly is:
As for "m4/3 is not made to be pocketable", that is just because they can't be. If they could be, then Panasonic/Olympus would be laughing all the way to the bank.
They can be, and some of them are . Personally, the G3 isn't pocketable enough for me and so in regards to your point relative to the OP, I would have to agree that the G3 can't really challenge super compacts such as the G12, simply based on size. But in terms of the larger MFT universe, I totally can't agree with you. There are many options that are pocketable enough to pose a challenge to the higher end compacts.

--
Sam Bennett
http://www.swiftbennett.com
http://www.flickr.com/sambennett/
 
The point is that, as I have already stated, compacts outsell DSLRs/EVIL cameras by about 8 to 1. Your extended notion of pocketability just isn't cutting it out there in the market.
The reasons people choose compacts are varied, pocketability isn't the only factor. But in any case, blaming CSC's lack of penetration on pocketability alone is pretty presumptuous, especially considering the lack of visibility most consumers have with them in the first place. They are just now creeping into stores like Best Buy, but are no where on the radar for stores like Target and Wal-Mart. So, it's waaay too soon to blame anything on the form factor alone. I know people who have specifically bought into MFT because of the pocketability factor. These are people who have a Smartphone for convenience, wanted better image quality than any compact could provide but didn't want something as large as an SLR because they couldn't stow it in a pocket. The market is out there, CSC's just have to get the word out.
I don't doubt that there is a market for CSCs. The issue is whether CSCs will kill off premium compacts. None of the issues you raise is applicable to Japan, and compact cameras haven't died in Japan.
1. A 20mm lens is really restricting things. Yes I know that "real photographers" love primes, but the mass market wants zooms. That is why the GF2+20mm is not a competitor to the G12, S95, LX5, XZ-1 etc. for most buyers.
And yet, as has been noted all over the place, cellphone cameras are immensely popular and many camera manufacturers are on record blaming them for the decline in compact sales - and most of these cameraphones feature very unsophisticated, fixed focal length lenses.
Yes, but they have digital zoom and most phone camera users wouldn't know the difference (unlike most potential GFx buyers). How many fixed lens compact cameras have a fixed focal length?
I certainly agree that a lot of people want zooms, but for those who want pocketability I don't think primes are as big a leap as some people make it out. I think manufacturers need to hone their messaging on this, and they need to make it easy to have both by introducing kits that include a compact primes ("Take it with you anywhere! Slip it in your pocket! Keep it in your purse!) and a mid-range zoom ("For those times where you want the flexibility of a zoom!").
It will only ever be a niche market for photo enthusiasts, no matter how it is marketed. It won't make a dent in the compact camera market. The very idea that most compact users would contemplate changing lenses "For those times where you want the flexibility of a zoom!" is comical. Their idea of flexibility is a single lens that does it all.
My definition is that it fits into the front pocket of a regular pair of pants. That has me covered all year round. It limits my choices to almost any compact camera on the market.
And that is your definition. So if you'd like to preface your comments stating that it's not pocketable enough for you, then I have no argument with you.
It is not pocketable enough for most current buyers of compact cameras, especially given the requirement for zoom.

I don't say cameras have to be pocketable. I just say that the GFx cameras aren't.
Then make your comments specific to the G3 and not to MFT in general, as your comment below clearly is:
As for "m4/3 is not made to be pocketable", that is just because they can't be. If they could be, then Panasonic/Olympus would be laughing all the way to the bank.
The G3 won't kill off premium compacts, nor will the GFx. It (along with the Pen cameras, which haven't had the supply problems of the Panasonic) has had the chance to do so and has not — even in Japan.

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john carson
 
Your EPL-1 is downsizing the pictures. Downsizing has the effect of reducing noise slightly.
I realise that you are talking to tedolf here and not me, as I always run jpegs at full resolution.

Nevertheless I thought I'd fill some white space to tell of my fiddles with my very first digital camera, an Olympus C-730 with all of 3MP to its name.

I found that running it in an optional upsizing mode (to 8MP, designed to suit an Olympus printer of the age) that details and clarity were a whisker clearer than running at the proper 3MP jpegs. Weird but wonderful so I used it that way all the time.

Naturally though downsizing a say 12 MP camera to 8MP does have a noise reduction effect but I suspect that using full resolution jpegs at -2 Sharpen and then post process sharpen carefully and a possible touch of noise reduction would do the job even better and leave the user with more detail in the image.

Regards............ Guy
 
I don't find it hard to believe that there are lots out there that would rather have a Powershot type camera than a system type. Maybe not TTWTH (those that waste time here). . . just saying.
I completely agree. Most people I know may like the pretty photos, but they have absolutely no desire to bother with any form of ILC, or anything beyond the most basic post processing. Mobile phone cameras and P&Ss (at most a superzoom) are what they'll always want, nothing more.

I also wonder what advances we might see beyond sensor improvements. Instead of a better sensor, why not increase sampling speed and raw computing power to perform HDR-like image compiling in-camera? Seems like a way to make improvements to raw camera output without actually improving the sensor much.
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http://453c.smugmug.com/
 
Design requirements:

Under 110mm x 60mm x 25mm, including lens (front jeans pocketable).
24mm-equivalent on the wide end
Zoom lens
At least 120fps video in VGA resolution, at least 240fps in lower resolution
Under $300, including lens

Will the G3 fit my needs?

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Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
All Canon needs to do is reintroduce TX1 and Powershot Pro2.
The difficulty in getting larger sensors into current small bodies is the width of the body limiting the focal length needed. Canon's TX1 fitted a 39-390 mm lens within the body of an IXUS sized camera by using a pistol grip format. The size of the object lens also has to be considered if a wide aperture is needed for low light performance. The TX1 had several compromises due to the need to fit so much into such a small space. A slightly larger TX2 in the same format might be even better all round.

Of course, no single camera will tick all boxes. That's why I carry two that complement each other. But everyone has their own personal needs. Yours may differ from mine.

John Carson's point about folks who live (or holiday) in the tropics is also relevant to the demand for pocketable cameras - we seldom wear clothes with large pockets.
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Cyril
 
I've always wondered why there aren't any 1" sensors on compacts. Agree that lens sizes will increase, and so will IQ, so this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Stick to a maximum of a 5x or 4x mated zoom lens and push out these enthusiast compacts. They will still be smaller that the M43 cameras with mounts, and due to a closer distance of the lens to the sensor, the IQ should be quite good.

...There is definitely an 'enthusiast' segment that does not care for interchangeable lenses. A single quality zoom mated to the body is good enough. What is wrong with a 28-112mm zoom on such lenses?
Ah, you nearly had me there, then you said 28-110. Nope -- not wide enough. Minimum wide should be 24mm ((135 equiv).

What about a m43 equivalent of the LX5? Add screw filter thread to the front of the lens so that those of ultimate ambition could screw on a tele supplementary and maybe a 0.7 wide.

I'd buy it!

Cheers, geoff
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Geoffrey Heard

http://pngtimetraveller.blogspot.com/2010/12/what-does-standard-of-living-mean-in.html
 
Hi Geoff,

agree that those who need more zoom could attach a converter lens in front. Does the LX5 not have any? A pity, it should not cost much at all.

I mentioned 28-110 because some like their zoom reaching deeper in the portrait lens range. But for a 1" sensor size, the DOF is not going to be much, so a 24-96 should satisfy many- sacrifice a little tele for a more useful wide angle. Restricting to a 4x zoom ensures more compact size, and better lens characteristics at 24mm (minimum pincushioning, etc).

I still have an old Canon Powershot A60 purchased in 2003 or 2004. It barely fits pockets, and has a mediocre 3x lens. But technology has progressed. People bought 3x lens compacts then. There is no reason they won't do now, provided the camera/ lens combo delivers.

Will any manufacturer at least show a prototype for 1" sensor camera? :)

best,
AP
 
I will grant you that pocketability is important to some but it is not something many more pay much attention to.
Compact — i.e., pocketable — cameras outsell DSLR/EVIL cameras by about 8 to 1. Part of that is price. The rest is pocketability.
So what? EVIL cameras never meant to outsell compacts! This is no argument.
  • If you need something pocketable - go buy a compact.
  • If you need something portable - go buy m4/3
  • If you need best IQ - go buy FF DSLR
The sales figures will decrease from the first to the last - that's not gonna change. The first gives profit with low margins and high volumes, the last with low volumes and high margins. m4/3 is probably somewhere in between.
--
john carson
--
Thomas
 
Your remarks a correct, but the whole discussion is moot anyway. I think no reasonable photographer would ever think about to put is precious system camera tool in such dangerous places such as pant or shirt pockets (even pant side bags). In such places, the tools can slip out and get lost, they can get easily mechanical damaged and are probably also more prone to theft.

Let's face it: if you buy a system camera, you need to consider appropriate bags for it. They don't need to be big. There are small, practical lens cases available (ThinkTankPhoto), which don't disturb, m4/3 camera bodies fit into coat pockets, if the pockets are big enough, and they even fit in a front pocket of my notebook bag with a kit zoom attached.

So many people are raving about range finder style bodies. I can't remember than my parents ever considered to put their true rangefinder bodies (Leica IIIg) in a shirt or pant pocket. They had their leather cases for them with a leather strap, and were perfectly happy with it.

To sacrifice ergonomics and control real estate beyond a certain extend just to be pocketable, is a huge design mistake for system cameras.

--
Thomas
 
I will grant you that pocketability is important to some but it is not something many more pay much attention to.
Compact — i.e., pocketable — cameras outsell DSLR/EVIL cameras by about 8 to 1. Part of that is price. The rest is pocketability.
So what? EVIL cameras never meant to outsell compacts! This is no argument.
Did you read the title of the opening post of the thread? Apparently the G3 is going to kill off the market for premium compacts (though presumably the cheap compacts will survive — at least until they are killed off by phones).
  • If you need something pocketable - go buy a compact.
  • If you need something portable - go buy m4/3
  • If you need best IQ - go buy FF DSLR
The sales figures will decrease from the first to the last - that's not gonna change. The first gives profit with low margins and high volumes, the last with low volumes and high margins. m4/3 is probably somewhere in between.
I agree.

--
john carson
 
Your remarks a correct, but the whole discussion is moot anyway. I think no reasonable photographer would ever think about to put is precious system camera tool in such dangerous places such as pant or shirt pockets (even pant side bags). In such places, the tools can slip out and get lost, they can get easily mechanical damaged and are probably also more prone to theft.

Let's face it: if you buy a system camera, you need to consider appropriate bags for it. They don't need to be big. There are small, practical lens cases available (ThinkTankPhoto), which don't disturb, m4/3 camera bodies fit into coat pockets, if the pockets are big enough, and they even fit in a front pocket of my notebook bag with a kit zoom attached.
Agreed.
So many people are raving about range finder style bodies. I can't remember than my parents ever considered to put their true rangefinder bodies (Leica IIIg) in a shirt or pant pocket. They had their leather cases for them with a leather strap, and were perfectly happy with it.

To sacrifice ergonomics and control real estate beyond a certain extend just to be pocketable, is a huge design mistake for system cameras.
I agree. I much prefer the G/GH design to the GF/Pen design. Of course, as you note, lots of people feel the opposite.

--
john carson
 

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